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Post by Ranger John on May 3, 2024 15:17:36 GMT -5
Not sure you want to ask that question. B'Tselem mission statement"Israel’s regime of apartheid and occupation is inextricably bound up in human rights violations. B’Tselem strives to end this regime, as that is the only way forward to a future in which human rights, democracy, liberty and equality are ensured to all people, both Palestinian and Israeli, living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea." "Some Israel scholars and former Israeli officials have also started using this designation. In 2022, Michael Ben-Yair, a former attorney general of Israel, said that “it is with great sadness ... I must also conclude that my country has sunk to such political and moral depths that it is now an apartheid regime.” Earlier this year, Tamir Pardo, a former head of Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency, emphasized, too, that “there is an apartheid state here” featuring “two people [who] are judged under two legal systems.”"www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-meaning-history-debateIshmael, you're against ending an Apartheid Regime? Did you oppose ending the Apartheid Regime in South Africa too? Did you oppose ending Jim Crow laws in the US? Or are you just playing Devils Advocate badly? No, SF, you are arguing FOR an Apartheid regime.
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Post by soulflower on May 3, 2024 15:22:02 GMT -5
"Some Israel scholars and former Israeli officials have also started using this designation. In 2022, Michael Ben-Yair, a former attorney general of Israel, said that “it is with great sadness ... I must also conclude that my country has sunk to such political and moral depths that it is now an apartheid regime.” Earlier this year, Tamir Pardo, a former head of Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency, emphasized, too, that “there is an apartheid state here” featuring “two people [who] are judged under two legal systems.”"www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-meaning-history-debateIshmael, you're against ending an Apartheid Regime? Did you oppose ending the Apartheid Regime in South Africa too? Did you oppose ending Jim Crow laws in the US? Or are you just playing Devils Advocate badly? No, SF, you are arguing FOR an Apartheid regime. Up is Down and Down is Up with you. ALWAYS
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Post by ishmael on May 3, 2024 15:33:30 GMT -5
Hmmm then why did Israel fund and prop up Hamas? Why did they ignore imminent threats? Good question. In hindsight, they should have just let Gaza survive on its own. The real reason however is because they tried to provide Gaza with the resources necessary to form a functioning State, if they decided to do so. They did this in spite of the general apathy and, in some cases, downright antipathy, by the largely Arabic nations in the ME. Why did Israel ignore imminent threats? Hell, you could take that question back of the first Intifada. The answer is likely because they wanted Gaza to succeed, because if Gaza succeeded, the push for right of return, aka Israeli suicide, would be muted.
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Post by mrsmlh on May 3, 2024 15:40:47 GMT -5
Hmmm then why did Israel fund and prop up Hamas? Why did they ignore imminent threats? Because if Hamas followed through with the imminent threat, it gave them an excuse to wipe out Gaza and claim it as now part of Israel.
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Post by soulflower on May 3, 2024 15:49:18 GMT -5
Hmmm then why did Israel fund and prop up Hamas? Why did they ignore imminent threats? Good question. In hindsight, they should have just let Gaza survive on its own. The real reason however is because they tried to provide Gaza with the resources necessary to form a functioning State, if they decided to do so. They did this in spite of the general apathy and, in some cases, downright antipathy, by the largely Arabic nations in the ME. Netanyahu doesn't care about the people of Gaza. The goal of supporting Hamas was to weaken moderate factions within Palestinian politics. Netanyahu justified it by saying it was the best way to prevent a Palestinian state. It was not done out of concern for the people of Gaza or to help Hamas better govern the region. 2019 - Netanyahu: Money to Hamas part of strategy to keep Palestinians divided"The prime minister also said that, “whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for” transferring the funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state".
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Post by Ranger John on May 3, 2024 16:18:14 GMT -5
No, SF, you are arguing FOR an Apartheid regime. Up is Down and Down is Up with you. ALWAYS No that's you. The Palestinian territories are CLEARLY apartheid regimes. Jews aren't even allowed to live there. Never mind vote or participate in government. They're not keen on gays or women either. Yet you support them. These are FACTS. No matter how much you ignore them or want to believe otherwise.
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Post by soulflower on May 3, 2024 16:28:55 GMT -5
Up is Down and Down is Up with you. ALWAYS No that's you. The Palestinian territories are CLEARLY apartheid regimes. Jews aren't even allowed to live there. Never mind vote or participate in government. They're not keen on gays or women either. Yet you support them. These are FACTS. No matter how much you ignore them or want to believe otherwise. The Palestinians don't have statehood or self-determination. Jews can visit and live in Gaza (I know some who have). Jews live on illegal settlements in the West Bank. I don't support Hamas or Islamic fundamentalism. I support freedom and self-determination for the Palestinians who have been stateless and living in refugee camps for 70+ years. Hamas fwiw has only existed for 30 years. And as a human being, even if you despise Hamas, you don't have to condone Israel killing 15,000 Palestinian children in seven months. Apologizing for and rationalizing Israel mutilating Palestinian children is your own choice. All you do is spread Israeli habara (the hebrew word for propaganda). It's tiring...
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Post by Ranger John on May 3, 2024 16:38:10 GMT -5
No that's you. The Palestinian territories are CLEARLY apartheid regimes. Jews aren't even allowed to live there. Never mind vote or participate in government. They're not keen on gays or women either. Yet you support them. These are FACTS. No matter how much you ignore them or want to believe otherwise. The Palestinians don't have statehood or self-determination. Jews can visit and live in Gaza (I know some who have). Jews live on illegal settlements in the West Bank. I don't support Hamas or Islamic fundamentalism. I support freedom and self-determination for the Palestinians who have been stateless and living in refugee camps for 70+ years. And as a human being, even if you despise Hamas, you don't have to condone Israel killing 15,000 Palestinian children in seven months. Apologizing for and rationalizing Israel mutilating Palestinian children is your own choice. All you do is spread Israeli habara (the hebrew word for propaganda). It's tiring... Why do you persist with this nonsense? Gaza was a de facto independent country from 2006 until last October. And I haven't condoned Israel killing Palestinians. I've simply put the blame where it correctly belongs: on Hamas. Your 15,000 figure is likely from Hamas and also a bullcrap number, though I will admit no one likely knows the real casualty count. No doubt a significant percentage of that figure are less "children" and more terrorists. If you're tired of being schooled on this, perhaps educate yourself.
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Post by ishmael on May 3, 2024 16:41:07 GMT -5
No that's you. The Palestinian territories are CLEARLY apartheid regimes. Jews aren't even allowed to live there. Never mind vote or participate in government. They're not keen on gays or women either. Yet you support them. These are FACTS. No matter how much you ignore them or want to believe otherwise. The Palestinians don't have statehood or self-determination. Jews can visit and live in Gaza (I know some who have). Jews live on illegal settlements in the West Bank. I don't support Hamas or Islamic fundamentalism. I support freedom and self-determination for the Palestinians who have been stateless and living in refugee camps for 70+ years. Hamas fwiw has only existed for 30 years. And as a human being, even if you despise Hamas, you don't have to condone Israel killing 15,000 Palestinian children in seven months. Apologizing for and rationalizing Israel mutilating Palestinian children is your own choice. All you do is spread Israeli habara (the hebrew word for propaganda). It's tiring... Why is Israel responsible for assisting the people of Gaza at all? There is an Arabic population multiple times the size of Israel, and Arabic nations with incredible wealth. Sounds to me like the Israelis have kind of agreed to fix a problem taht is not theirs to fix. Of course, a cynic might suggest that the other Arabic States have decided that making Gaza the whipping boy and cost-bearer for Pan-Arabic irrational hatred of Israel is a strategic decision and initiative...
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Post by JoyinMudville on May 3, 2024 16:46:13 GMT -5
You're jumping to all kinds of conclusions. This
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Post by soulflower on May 3, 2024 16:58:24 GMT -5
The Palestinians don't have statehood or self-determination. Jews can visit and live in Gaza (I know some who have). Jews live on illegal settlements in the West Bank. I don't support Hamas or Islamic fundamentalism. I support freedom and self-determination for the Palestinians who have been stateless and living in refugee camps for 70+ years. And as a human being, even if you despise Hamas, you don't have to condone Israel killing 15,000 Palestinian children in seven months. Apologizing for and rationalizing Israel mutilating Palestinian children is your own choice. All you do is spread Israeli habara (the hebrew word for propaganda). It's tiring... Why do you persist with this nonsense? Gaza was a de facto independent country from 2006 until last October. That’s totally false. If you don’t control your own borders, you’re not a sovereign state. Also, the US vetoes any attempts at the UN to recognize a Palestinian State. Most recently during the Biden administration. www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/04/18/us-veto-un-palestine-state/Please quit spreading misinformation.
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Post by JoyinMudville on May 3, 2024 17:02:32 GMT -5
Just don't toss in factually incorrect information to make a point that stands on its own. The state of our country's infrastructure is subject to each individual's own opinion. That is correct but what is an actual FACT is that Biden was able to pass the biggest investment in US infrastructure since the Eisenhower's superhighway program or the New Deal. Some people just want to throw rocks
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Post by soulflower on May 3, 2024 17:18:20 GMT -5
The Palestinians don't have statehood or self-determination. Jews can visit and live in Gaza (I know some who have). Jews live on illegal settlements in the West Bank. I don't support Hamas or Islamic fundamentalism. I support freedom and self-determination for the Palestinians who have been stateless and living in refugee camps for 70+ years. Hamas fwiw has only existed for 30 years. And as a human being, even if you despise Hamas, you don't have to condone Israel killing 15,000 Palestinian children in seven months. Apologizing for and rationalizing Israel mutilating Palestinian children is your own choice. All you do is spread Israeli habara (the hebrew word for propaganda). It's tiring... Why is Israel responsible for assisting the people of Gaza at all?For the same reasons that parents are responsible for the well-being of their children under age 18. Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are stateless. They have no self-determination in terms of controlling who they do trade with or infrastructure, or even what kinds of foods and medicines they import. It's similar to how children under 18 can't do all the things that adults can do. For Palestinians to be equal to Israel, they first need to have their own State. Therefore, if the Palestinians can't have their own State or control their own Trade, Israel has a responsibility to make sure basic humanitarian aid, medicine, food, water, etc reaches the Palestinians who live within Israel's borders (which includes Gaza and the West bank). There is an Arabic population multiple times the size of Israel, and Arabic nations with incredible wealth. Sounds to me like the Israelis have kind of agreed to fix a problem taht is not theirs to fix.
Of course, a cynic might suggest that the other Arabic States have decided that making Gaza the whipping boy and cost-bearer for Pan-Arabic irrational hatred of Israel is a strategic decision and initiative... Very weird of you to suggest that all Arab speaking people are the same or that the Palestinians should be someone else's responsibility even though the West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel in terms of geography. It's incredible that you speak so authoritatively on a topic, you apparently know very little about. You're also expressing the outdated, Cold War view that Arab states support the Palestinians as proxies against Israel. That couldn't be further from the truth today in the post-Cold War alignment of the region. Most Arab nations have good relations with Israel. Iran (not Arab) and Syria are the only nations in the region which still support the Palestinians. And Syria has been a non-factor in the Israel-Palestine stuff since their own civil war started.
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Post by soulflower on May 3, 2024 17:25:53 GMT -5
A look inside of Columbia University's encampment (before the NYPD dismantled it)
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Post by Ranger John on May 3, 2024 17:40:00 GMT -5
Why do you persist with this nonsense? Gaza was a de facto independent country from 2006 until last October. That’s totally false. If you don’t control your own borders, you’re not a sovereign state. Also, the US vetoes any attempts at the UN to recognize a Palestinian State. Most recently during the Biden administration. www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/04/18/us-veto-un-palestine-state/Please quit spreading misinformation. What the heck are you talking about? You're not really going to try to argue that Hamas didn't keep people out of Gaza that it wanted to keep out of Gaza, are you? Because that would be ludicrous. I mean sure, it would be one more ludicrous thing you've said in a slew of ludicrous things on these threads, but it is ludicrous. If you're trying to argue that people and goods can't cross Gaza's borders without Egypt or Israel consenting, that's Isreal and Egypt controlling THEIR border. Also, go back and read what I said. I called it a "de facto" state. That doesn't require anyone else to acknowledge it. Yet for 18 years Hamas ruled Gaza without any real input from any other country.
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Post by ishmael on May 3, 2024 17:41:15 GMT -5
Why is Israel responsible for assisting the people of Gaza at all? For the same reasons that parents are responsible for the well-being of their children under age 18. Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are stateless. They have no self-determination in terms of controlling who they do trade with or infrastructure, or even what kinds of foods and medicines they import. It's similar to how children under 18 can't do all the things that adults can do. For Palestinians to be equal to Israel, they first need to have their own State. Therefore, if the Palestinians can't have their own State or control their own Trade, Israel has a responsibility to make sure basic humanitarian aid, medicine, food, water, etc reaches the Palestinians who live within Israel's borders (which includes Gaza and the West bank). There is an Arabic population multiple times the size of Israel, and Arabic nations with incredible wealth. Sounds to me like the Israelis have kind of agreed to fix a problem taht is not theirs to fix.
Of course, a cynic might suggest that the other Arabic States have decided that making Gaza the whipping boy and cost-bearer for Pan-Arabic irrational hatred of Israel is a strategic decision and initiative... Very weird of you to suggest that all Arab speaking people are the same or that the Palestinians should be someone else's responsibility even though the West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel in terms of geography. It's incredible that you speak so authoritatively on a topic, you apparently know very little about. You're also expressing the outdated, Cold War view that Arab states support the Palestinians as proxies against Israel. That couldn't be further from the truth today in the post-Cold War alignment of the region. Most Arab nations have good relations with Israel. Iran (not Arab) and Syria are the only nations in the region which still support the Palestinians. And Syria has been a non-factor in the Israel-Palestine stuff since their own civil war started. You really need some new glasses my friend. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, Qatar, Bahrain; all of these are nations that provide little to no support to the improvement of the status of the people of Gaza. Their indifference is at the heart of the Gaza condition. Just as an aside, I wonder how many times in human history a nation has been chastised and delegitimized for failing to provide resources to another nation, the leadership of which has made its primary stated mission, the destruction of the first nation.
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Post by soulflower on May 3, 2024 17:48:16 GMT -5
You're not really going to try to argue that Hamas didn't keep people out of Gaza that it wanted to keep out of Gaza, are you? It's not an argument. It's a fact. There's no truth to the idea that Jews were banned from Gaza. Settlers were banned, not Jewish people. Jewish journalist, Dan Cohen, lived in Gaza for a year while he filmed his documentary, "Killing Gaza". If you're trying to argue that people and goods can't cross Gaza's borders without Egypt or Israel consenting, that's Isreal and Egypt controlling THEIR border. Fair enough but Israel doesn't allow airports in Gaza and they don't allow Gaza to receive supplies via the Mediterranean. All food and other supplies into Gaza had to pass through Israel. No matter which way you slice it, they didn't control their borders and weren't allowed to have seaports or airports. It was an open-air prison with a beach.
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Post by soulflower on May 3, 2024 17:53:11 GMT -5
Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, Qatar, Bahrain; all of these are nations that provide little to no support to the improvement of the status of the people of Gaza. Their indifference is at the heart of the Gaza condition. We agree that the wealthy Arab countries don't give a damn about the Palestinians. Hence why they're makign deals with Israel despite the Palestinian refugee issue remaining unresolved. Aside from that, I don't see what your point is. Just as an aside, I wonder how many times in human history a nation has been chastised and delegitimized for failing to provide resources to another nation, the leadership of which has made its primary stated mission, the destruction of the first nation. There is no Palestinian "nation". If I'm wrong, cite a map that shows where a nation called "Palestine" is. Israel, because they CONTROL what food and other supplies get into the Palestinian territories, is partly responsible for their well being. At this point, you're simply making yourself look like a liar to everyone here. I'm sure you're smart enough to know the Palestinians have no internationally recognized State. The lengths you're going to in order to defend the indefensible is incredible.
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Post by Ranger John on May 3, 2024 17:56:15 GMT -5
You're not really going to try to argue that Hamas didn't keep people out of Gaza that it wanted to keep out of Gaza, are you? It's not an argument. It's a fact. There's no truth to the idea that Jews were banned from Gaza. Settlers were banned, not Jewish people. Jewish journalist, Dan Cohen, lived in Gaza for a year while he filmed his documentary, "Killing Gaza". If you're trying to argue that people and goods can't cross Gaza's borders without Egypt or Israel consenting, that's Isreal and Egypt controlling THEIR border. Fair enough but Israel doesn't allow airports in Gaza and they don't allow Gaza to receive supplies via the Mediterranean. All food and other supplies into Gaza had to pass through Israel. No matter which way you slice it, they didn't control their borders and weren't allowed to have seaports or airports. It was an open-air prison with a beach. Well gee, I can't imagine why Hamas let an Israeli in to do a bogus propaganda video for them. Was he allowed to own property? Again, we've covered the second part of your post several times. Gaza had TWO airports. They're closed because Hamas thought building tunnels was more important than maintaining airports. Gaza can't receive supplies via the Mediterranean because of geography - the sea isn't deep enough to have a port there. That's why the proposed dock system the US says it wants to build is so large. And one more time: no prison I've ever been to had the amount of automatic weapons, explosives, bombs and paragliders that Gaza had. It was never a prison, but to the extent that movement was restricted, it was restricted by Hamas, not Israel. No amount of BSing on your part is going to change any of that. No matter how many times you claim Israel doesn't allow Hamas to have airports - it's a lie. HAMAS doesn't allow Gaza to have airports. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Katif_Airport
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Post by soulflower on May 3, 2024 18:03:39 GMT -5
Well gee, I can't imagine why Hamas let an Israeli in to do a bogus propaganda video for them. Was he allowed to own property? Cohen is an American citizen. He has lived in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. For the last time, not all Jews support Israel and not all Israelis are Jewish. According to polling, the most pro-Israel people in America are White conservative Christians, not American Jews. And one more time: no prison I've ever been to had the amount of automatic weapons, explosives, bombs and paragliders that Gaza had. It was never a prison, but to the extent that movement was restricted, it was restricted by Hamas, not Israel. No amount of BSing on your part is going to change any of that. No matter how many times you claim Israel doesn't allow Hamas to have airports - it's a lie. HAMAS doesn't allow Gaza to have airports. We're way off topic because of you but history shows that Colonization/Occupation is enforced with violence and resistance to colonization and occupation is often violent. Read a world history book or Wikipedia it. Until they end the occupation and everyone has equal Rights, there will be no peace in the region. Violence is inevitable under the circumstances of occupation of other people who are denied basic human rights.
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Post by Ranger John on May 3, 2024 18:15:05 GMT -5
Well gee, I can't imagine why Hamas let an Israeli in to do a bogus propaganda video for them. Was he allowed to own property? Cohen is an American citizen. He has lived in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. For the last time, not all Jews support Israel and not all Israelis are Jewish. According to polling, the most pro-Israel people in America are White conservative Christians, not American Jews. And one more time: no prison I've ever been to had the amount of automatic weapons, explosives, bombs and paragliders that Gaza had. It was never a prison, but to the extent that movement was restricted, it was restricted by Hamas, not Israel. No amount of BSing on your part is going to change any of that. No matter how many times you claim Israel doesn't allow Hamas to have airports - it's a lie. HAMAS doesn't allow Gaza to have airports. We're way of topic because of you but history shows that Colonization/Occupation is enforced with violence and resistance to colonization and occupation is often violent. Read a world history book or Wikipedia it. Until they end the occupation and everyone has equal Rights, there will be no peace in the region. Violence is inevitable under the circumstances of occupation of other people who are denied basic human rights. Look: Jews are not allowed to own property in Palestinian controlled territory. Gays are persecuted in Palestinian controlled territory. Women are oppressed in Palestinian controlled territory. There IS NO WORLD where everyone will have equal rights in territory controlled by Palestinians. Yet you're just happy to go on carrying water for these human rights abusers. How in the world can you continue with this "colonization/occupation" goofiness? The Israelis/Jews have been on this land for 3,000+ years. They have a better claim to what is now Israel than almost any other civilization anywhere in the world. Calling them "occupiers" on land they've been on since before the Roman Empire is beyond stupid. It really is impossible to read these threads and conclude you are doing anything but regurgitating Palestinian lies without even the most basic attempt to look into the real history of this land. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR POSTS on these threads is a celebration of your own ignorance.
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Post by soulflower on May 3, 2024 18:41:55 GMT -5
Jews are not allowed to own property in Palestinian controlled territory. Gays are persecuted in Palestinian controlled territory. Women are oppressed in Palestinian controlled territory. There IS NO WORLD where everyone will have equal rights in territory controlled by Palestinians. In case you missed my earlier post in this topic, I’ll repeat: I don’t believe a Two-State solution is possible at this point. There are around a million settlers living in the West Bank. Israel will not force them to leave therefore it’s not possible for Palestinians to have their own State in any official sense. And no, Israeli settlers will not subject themselves to living under Palestinian rule. My view is that “one state” where everyone has equal Rights is the solution. In other words, “Democracy” So you’re wasting your time trying to convince me that Israel is better than the Palestinian territories. I AGREE. If I had to choose between Gaza and Israel, I would live in Israel. But that doesn’t mean I’m okay with Israel mass murdering women and children with my tax dollars. I think Israel should also extend equal Rights to Palestinians and end their apartheid regime. You’re entitled to disagree that Israel is an apartheid state but high-ranking Israeli officials and Israeli human rights groups agree that it’s an apartheid system. You insist on muddling the conversation, spreading misinformation, and creating strawmen arguments. I'm just here to keep you honest.
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Post by JoyinMudville on May 3, 2024 19:13:12 GMT -5
How in the world can you continue with this "colonization/occupation" goofiness? The Israelis/Jews have been on this land for 3,000+ years. Actually, you've got it completely backwards. It's the Palestinians in places like Nablus that have been on that land continuously for 3,000+ years. As Josephus records, the Jews were driving abroad by the Romans in the 1st century CE. The Palestinians are the people who stayed, they inter-married with the Romans/then Byzantians/then Arabs/then Ottomans. There are Christian communities there that go back to 1st century. In the late 19th century there were about 600,000 Palestinians in present day Israel/Palestine and maybe a couple of thousand Jews.
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Post by ishmael on May 3, 2024 19:38:36 GMT -5
Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, Qatar, Bahrain; all of these are nations that provide little to no support to the improvement of the status of the people of Gaza. Their indifference is at the heart of the Gaza condition. We agree that the wealthy Arab countries don't give a damn about the Palestinians. Hence why they're makign deals with Israel despite the Palestinian refugee issue remaining unresolved. Aside from that, I don't see what your point is. Just as an aside, I wonder how many times in human history a nation has been chastised and delegitimized for failing to provide resources to another nation, the leadership of which has made its primary stated mission, the destruction of the first nation. There is no Palestinian "nation". If I'm wrong, cite a map that shows where a nation called "Palestine" is. Israel, because they CONTROL what food and other supplies get into the Palestinian territories, is partly responsible for their well being. At this point, you're simply making yourself look like a liar to everyone here. I'm sure you're smart enough to know the Palestinians have no internationally recognized State. The lengths you're going to in order to defend the indefensible is incredible. Safe yourself some angst SF. Just skulk away from this thread. Your position is without merit.
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Post by soulflower on May 3, 2024 19:47:03 GMT -5
We agree that the wealthy Arab countries don't give a damn about the Palestinians. Hence why they're makign deals with Israel despite the Palestinian refugee issue remaining unresolved. Aside from that, I don't see what your point is. There is no Palestinian "nation". If I'm wrong, cite a map that shows where a nation called "Palestine" is. Israel, because they CONTROL what food and other supplies get into the Palestinian territories, is partly responsible for their well being. At this point, you're simply making yourself look like a liar to everyone here. I'm sure you're smart enough to know the Palestinians have no internationally recognized State. The lengths you're going to in order to defend the indefensible is incredible. Safe yourself some angst SF. Just skulk away from this thread. Your position is without merit. My position is that I support self-determination and view Palestinians as deserving of human rights and dignity that is being denied currently by Israel. Unfortunately for you, I’m not going anywhere. Your lies and disingenuous posts will not go unchecked.
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Post by ishmael on May 3, 2024 21:23:34 GMT -5
Safe yourself some angst SF. Just skulk away from this thread. Your position is without merit. My position is that I support self-determination and view Palestinians as deserving of human rights and dignity that is being denied currently by Israel. Unfortunately for you, I’m not going anywhere. Your lies and disingenuous posts will not go unchecked. The people of Gaza have self-determination. And in 2006, they voted Hamas in as their government. In 2007, the "government" announced that the right to self determination hinged on whether the voter acknowledged Hamas' inherent right to govern. I guess voting for the Hamas candidate of your choice is a form of self-determination. The human rights and dignity you keep writing about isn't being denied by Israel. You keep prattling on about sea borne goods having to come thru Israeli ports. Why do you think that is? And why doesn't Egypt step in and provide goods from their ports?
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Post by soulflower on May 3, 2024 22:20:16 GMT -5
My position is that I support self-determination and view Palestinians as deserving of human rights and dignity that is being denied currently by Israel. Unfortunately for you, I’m not going anywhere. Your lies and disingenuous posts will not go unchecked. The people of Gaza have self-determination. And in 2006, they voted Hamas in as their government. In 2007, the "government" announced that the right to self determination hinged on whether the voter acknowledged Hamas' inherent right to govern. I guess voting for the Hamas candidate of your choice is a form of self-determination. The human rights and dignity you keep writing about isn't being denied by Israel. You keep prattling on about sea borne goods having to come thru Israeli ports. Why do you think that is? And why doesn't Egypt step in and provide goods from their ports? Congrats. You know how to use Wikipedia. Here’s my two-cents:
- George W Bush insisted that Gaza hold elections. Another one of his blunders from the Iraq war era.
- Hamas won a plurality, not a majority. Neither Hamas nor Fatah reached a majority of the votes. It was close to 50-50. But even if Hamas won 100% of the votes, it doesn't justify Israel's mass slaughter of women and children today.
- Half of the population of Gaza wasn’t even born the last time they had an election. Are five year-olds in Gaza responsible for Hamas being elected over a decade ago?
- There haven’t been any elections in Gaza in almost 20 years. Hamas is an authoritarian government that uses intimidation and violence to crush political opposition in Gaza.
I have no qualms about acknowledging the flaws of Fatah and Hamas. The Palestinian Authority is corrupt and Hamas is an extremist group. The Palestinians need better leaders. But let's not forget why they're refugees in the first place. There was a war, many Palestinians fled Israel, and they weren't allowed to return to their homes after the war ended. Israel created this refugee problem due to their theft of Palestinian homes and land. What amazes me though is how you and some others here defend Israel no matter what they do. It doesn't matter how much Netanyahu gets caught lying. It doesn't matter how many doctors, teachers, and journalists they kill. You seem to have bought into the idea that "everyone in Gaza is Hamas" and that's why you're attempting to use elections from almost 20 years ago to rationalize their crimes against humanity.
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Post by soulflower on May 3, 2024 22:33:32 GMT -5
Back to the topic, the campus protests have expanded to other countries
Protests are expected to continue through commencement season
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Post by ishmael on May 4, 2024 9:00:58 GMT -5
The people of Gaza have self-determination. And in 2006, they voted Hamas in as their government. In 2007, the "government" announced that the right to self determination hinged on whether the voter acknowledged Hamas' inherent right to govern. I guess voting for the Hamas candidate of your choice is a form of self-determination. The human rights and dignity you keep writing about isn't being denied by Israel. You keep prattling on about sea borne goods having to come thru Israeli ports. Why do you think that is? And why doesn't Egypt step in and provide goods from their ports? Congrats. You know how to use Wikipedia. Here’s my two-cents:
- George W Bush insisted that Gaza hold elections. Another one of his blunders from the Iraq war era.
- Hamas won a plurality, not a majority. Neither Hamas nor Fatah reached a majority of the votes. It was close to 50-50. But even if Hamas won 100% of the votes, it doesn't justify Israel's mass slaughter of women and children today.
- Half of the population of Gaza wasn’t even born the last time they had an election. Are five year-olds in Gaza responsible for Hamas being elected over a decade ago?
- There haven’t been any elections in Gaza in almost 20 years. Hamas is an authoritarian government that uses intimidation and violence to crush political opposition in Gaza.
I have no qualms about acknowledging the flaws of Fatah and Hamas. The Palestinian Authority is corrupt and Hamas is an extremist group. The Palestinians need better leaders. But let's not forget why they're refugees in the first place. There was a war, many Palestinians fled Israel, and they weren't allowed to return to their homes after the war ended. Israel created this refugee problem due to their theft of Palestinian homes and land. What amazes me though is how you and some others here defend Israel no matter what they do. It doesn't matter how much Netanyahu gets caught lying. It doesn't matter how many doctors, teachers, and journalists they kill. You seem to have bought into the idea that "everyone in Gaza is Hamas" and that's why you're attempting to use elections from almost 20 years ago to rationalize their crimes against humanity. The Palestinians are refugees, to the degree they are refugees at all, because after three wars, instigated by the Arabic and Persian brothers, the Israelis kept the lands they conquered in their defensive battles and built upon it. They made it into something. Such is the result of war. In the interest of peace, the Israelis gave up the Sinai, and, lo and behold, they have achieved a state of at least passive acceptance and peace with Egypt. OTOH, in the interest of peace, they gave up control of Southern Lebanon and now Hezbollah launces rockets into Israel on a regular basis. OTOH, in the interest of peace, they gave up the land in Gaza for the development of a Palestinian State - and got 1200 dead Israelis early on an October morning. No one here has bought into the idea that "everyone in Gaza is Hamas". But Hamas has determined that the sacrifice of Palestinian lives as a result of Hamas hiding its forces, its weapons, its explosives, etc. in the civilian community is a sacrifice the people of Gaza are willing to make - whether they are or not. Where are your calls for the Ayatollahs to face the ICC? Where are your calls for the leaders of Hamas and Hezbollah to face the ICC? Get back to me when you shed some of that overbearing hypocrisy.
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Post by soulflower on May 4, 2024 9:13:36 GMT -5
The Palestinians are refugees, to the degree they are refugees at all, because after three wars, instigated by the Arabic and Persian brothers, the Israelis kept the lands they conquered in their defensive battles and built upon it. They made it into something. Such is the result of war. blah blah blah. Not going to keep responding to your Wikipedia "history lessons" and whataboutisms because it's off topic and a waste of everyone's time. I don't need a history lesson because I've probably forgotten more about this topic than you know. I've been engaged with this stuff since I was an undergrad in college 20 or so years ago. Regardless of how one feels about Palestinian leadership, it takes a very morally empty person to not be moved by images of starving and dead children.
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