|
Post by ishmael on May 7, 2024 14:56:39 GMT -5
^Why Americans with a conscious are protesting link^why, in large part, there are so many civilian casualties in Gaza.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 7, 2024 15:35:28 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on May 7, 2024 17:03:07 GMT -5
Given that all these months later, the hostages are probably all (or mostly) dead, I can't really blame him. Hamas is most likely trying to desperately use false hope that they're alive to get what they want. They've never provided proof of life for the hostages, so those cards that they could have reasonably played 3-4 months ago have lost their value. That's the thing about taking hostages: once you kill them all, you lose your ability to negotiate.
|
|
|
Post by ishmael on May 7, 2024 19:13:14 GMT -5
You have "seen few examples of armed combatants among civilians". That's the whole problem; Hamas dresses like the locals, lives and hunts among the locals. You really haven't the foggiest notion of urban guerilla warfare, do you? I think most Israeli civilians, at least those who aren't still mourning the 1,200 murdered fellow citizens, (are you aware that is the most Israelis to die on one day since the ovens of Aushweitz were turned off) are probably just hoping their family member in that mess comes home alive and in one piece. I think the emotion you are trying very hard to put on the Israelis is coming from your own anti-Israeli heart. Hamas can end this tomorrow, just as they could have 6 months ago. They are not only holding Israeli citizens hostage, but their own citizens as well.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 7, 2024 19:58:14 GMT -5
Given that all these months later, the hostages are probably all (or mostly) dead, I can't really blame him. Hamas is most likely trying to desperately use false hope that they're alive to get what they want. They've never provided proof of life for the hostages, so those cards that they could have reasonably played 3-4 months ago have lost their value. That's the thing about taking hostages: once you kill them all, you lose your ability to negotiate. Do you think the heavy bombing of Gaza hasn't killed some of the hostages? Or the mass starvation? And the IDF is confirmed to have killed three of the hostages. This isn't a movie. The only way the remaining hostages come home alive is via negotiations. Netanyahu knows that but doesn't care. All he cares about is staying in power.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 7, 2024 20:09:36 GMT -5
You have "seen few examples of armed combatants among civilians". That's the whole problem; Hamas dresses like the locals, lives and hunts among the locals. You really haven't the foggiest notion of urban guerilla warfare, do you?I understand guerilla warfare very well thank you. I've personally studied Vietnam and the Cuban Revolution. You don't win hearts an minds against an insurgency by turning the entire population against you as Israel is doing. Prior to Oct. 7th, many people in Gaza disapproved of Hamas. But Israel isn't going to be able to turn those folks into allies because they're killing everyone in Gaza. Just last week, a high profile critic of Hamas was killed by Israel for example in northern Gaza. I also think you're very naive or blind if you can't see that the Israelis have no intention of avoiding civilian casualties. They say all the time that there are "no innocents in Gaza" or that everyone in Gaza supports Hamas. Which justifies their policy of denying humanitarian aid and dropping 2000 pound bombs on heavily populated areas. I think most Israeli civilians, at least those who aren't still mourning the 1,200 murdered fellow citizens, (are you aware that is the most Israelis to die on one day since the ovens of Aushweitz were turned off) are probably just hoping their family member in that mess comes home alive and in one piece. Some, not all. I've personally seen some of the more extreme rightwing Israelis say they don't care if their family member being held by Hamas is killed. Another factor is, many of the people who were captured were Liberal Israelis. Calling someone a "Liberal" in Israel is almost a slur. They have a very low opinion of them. So that also partly explains the lack of urgency from Netanyahu. It's not as if the 'hippy' Israelis support him politically. I think the emotion you are trying very hard to put on the Israelis is coming from your own anti-Israeli heart. I'm really not anti "Israel". I'm anti-apartheid and anti-genocide. Bigotry, ethnic supremacy, and ethnic inequality are bad. I can't support Israeli society as it exists today. My grandparents experienced segregation in America. Palestinians suffer similar inequality. I hope all the surviving hostages are freed soon and I hope both sides can agree to a long-term peace deal. What's more bizarre imho is your lack of empathy for Palestinian civilians. It's like they don't even matter or exist to you. Hamas can end this tomorrow, just as they could have 6 months ago. Sorry but Hamas agreed to a ceasefire (and hostage release) while Israel just rejected it. Find some new talking points.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 7, 2024 21:02:08 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by ishmael on May 7, 2024 21:30:45 GMT -5
You have "seen few examples of armed combatants among civilians". That's the whole problem; Hamas dresses like the locals, lives and hunts among the locals. You really haven't the foggiest notion of urban guerilla warfare, do you?I understand guerilla warfare very well thank you. I've personally studied Vietnam and the Cuban Revolution. You don't win hearts an minds against an insurgency by turning the entire population against you as Israel is doing. Prior to Oct. 7th, many people in Gaza disapproved of Hamas. But Israel isn't going to be able to turn those folks into allies because they're killing everyone in Gaza. Just last week, a high profile critic of Hamas was killed by Israel for example in northern Gaza. I also think you're very naive or blind if you can't see that the Israelis have no intention of avoiding civilian casualties. They say all the time that there are "no innocents in Gaza" or that everyone in Gaza supports Hamas. Which justifies their policy of denying humanitarian aid and dropping 2000 pound bombs on heavily populated areas. I think most Israeli civilians, at least those who aren't still mourning the 1,200 murdered fellow citizens, (are you aware that is the most Israelis to die on one day since the ovens of Aushweitz were turned off) are probably just hoping their family member in that mess comes home alive and in one piece. Some, not all. I've personally seen some of the more extreme rightwing Israelis say they don't care if their family member being held by Hamas is killed. Another factor is, many of the people who were captured were Liberal Israelis. Calling someone a "Liberal" in Israel is almost a slur. They have a very low opinion of them. So that also partly explains the lack of urgency from Netanyahu. It's not as if the 'hippy' Israelis support him politically. I think the emotion you are trying very hard to put on the Israelis is coming from your own anti-Israeli heart. I'm really not anti "Israel". I'm anti-apartheid and anti-genocide. Bigotry, ethnic supremacy, and ethnic inequality are bad. I can't support Israeli society as it exists today. My grandparents experienced segregation in America. Palestinians suffer similar inequality. I hope all the surviving hostages are freed soon and I hope both sides can agree to a long-term peace deal. What's more bizarre imho is your lack of empathy for Palestinian civilians. It's like they don't even matter or exist to you. Hamas can end this tomorrow, just as they could have 6 months ago. Sorry but Hamas agreed to a ceasefire (and hostage release) while Israel just rejected it. Find some new talking points. Actually, Hamas didn't agree to a ceasefire. Hamas put forward a counterproposal to an offer that was on the table. That is, by definition, not an agreement. And the Hamas "proposal" requires a staggered release of hostages in exchange for the immediate release of hundreds of Hamas criminals and the immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces. IOW, let's go back to Oct 7, right after we killed 1,200 of your people and call it a day. Your ability, nay, eagerness to justify every Hamas' action puts the lie to your statement of not being anti-Israel. You condemn "all" Israelis with ease, yet pass on the people of Gaza who so passively allow their government to commit murder in their name.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on May 8, 2024 5:53:31 GMT -5
Given that all these months later, the hostages are probably all (or mostly) dead, I can't really blame him. Hamas is most likely trying to desperately use false hope that they're alive to get what they want. They've never provided proof of life for the hostages, so those cards that they could have reasonably played 3-4 months ago have lost their value. That's the thing about taking hostages: once you kill them all, you lose your ability to negotiate. Do you think the heavy bombing of Gaza hasn't killed some of the hostages? Or the mass starvation? And the IDF is confirmed to have killed three of the hostages. This isn't a movie. The only way the remaining hostages come home alive is via negotiations. Netanyahu knows that but doesn't care. All he cares about is staying in power. No. I think Hamas killed these hostages by taking them in the first place. Then probably starving, murdering or denying them medication. Or heck, maybe even decapitating them or incinerating them just like they did on October 7. The fact that they were taken in the first place makes Hamas 100% culpable. STOP BLAMING THE VICTIMS. It's gross.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on May 8, 2024 5:57:06 GMT -5
I understand guerilla warfare very well thank you. I've personally studied Vietnam and the Cuban Revolution. You don't win hearts an minds against an insurgency by turning the entire population against you as Israel is doing. Prior to Oct. 7th, many people in Gaza disapproved of Hamas. But Israel isn't going to be able to turn those folks into allies because they're killing everyone in Gaza. Just last week, a high profile critic of Hamas was killed by Israel for example in northern Gaza. I also think you're very naive or blind if you can't see that the Israelis have no intention of avoiding civilian casualties. They say all the time that there are "no innocents in Gaza" or that everyone in Gaza supports Hamas. Which justifies their policy of denying humanitarian aid and dropping 2000 pound bombs on heavily populated areas. Some, not all. I've personally seen some of the more extreme rightwing Israelis say they don't care if their family member being held by Hamas is killed. Another factor is, many of the people who were captured were Liberal Israelis. Calling someone a "Liberal" in Israel is almost a slur. They have a very low opinion of them. So that also partly explains the lack of urgency from Netanyahu. It's not as if the 'hippy' Israelis support him politically. I'm really not anti "Israel". I'm anti-apartheid and anti-genocide. Bigotry, ethnic supremacy, and ethnic inequality are bad. I can't support Israeli society as it exists today. My grandparents experienced segregation in America. Palestinians suffer similar inequality. I hope all the surviving hostages are freed soon and I hope both sides can agree to a long-term peace deal. What's more bizarre imho is your lack of empathy for Palestinian civilians. It's like they don't even matter or exist to you. Sorry but Hamas agreed to a ceasefire (and hostage release) while Israel just rejected it. Find some new talking points. Actually, Hamas didn't agree to a ceasefire. Hamas put forward a counterproposal to an offer that was on the table. That is, by definition, not an agreement. And the Hamas "proposal" requires a staggered release of hostages in exchange for the immediate release of hundreds of Hamas criminals and the immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces. IOW, let's go back to Oct 7, right after we killed 1,200 of your people and call it a day. Your ability, nay, eagerness to justify every Hamas' action puts the lie to your statement of not being anti-Israel. You condemn "all" Israelis with ease, yet pass on the people of Gaza who so passively allow their government to commit murder in their name. Probably the sensible thing for Israel to do is request a list of the prisoners Hamas wants, pull them in front of the cameras, and start decapitating them with machetes until Hamas agrees to release the Israeli hostages... most of which are likely already dead. Then, when all of the Israeli hostages are released, put the remaining Hamas prisoners in front of a wall and blow them into red mist. Things aren't going to get better with the Palestinians until the Israelis really pick up the ball and start treating them the way they treat Israelis.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 8, 2024 6:39:45 GMT -5
Actually, Hamas didn't agree to a ceasefire. Hamas put forward a counterproposal to an offer that was on the table. That is, by definition, not an agreement. And the Hamas "proposal" requires a staggered release of hostages in exchange for the immediate release of hundreds of Hamas criminals and the immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces. IOW, let's go back to Oct 7, right after we killed 1,200 of your people and call it a day. Your ability, nay, eagerness to justify every Hamas' action puts the lie to your statement of not being anti-Israel. You condemn "all" Israelis with ease, yet pass on the people of Gaza who so passively allow their government to commit murder in their name. Probably the sensible thing for Israel to do is request a list of the prisoners Hamas wants, pull them in front of the cameras, and start decapitating them with machetes until Hamas agrees to release the Israeli hostages... most of which are likely already dead. Then, when all of the Israeli hostages are released, put the remaining Hamas prisoners in front of a wall and blow them into red mist. Things aren't going to get better with the Palestinians until the Israelis really pick up the ball and start treating them the way they treat Israelis. 100% of the population of Gaza has been displaced since October, 2023. How many Israelis have been made homeless by the war? Is there a famine in Israel? If this were America pre-Civil War, you would likely view the slave owners as the "victims" of abolitionists...
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 8, 2024 6:40:38 GMT -5
Actually, Hamas didn't agree to a ceasefire. Hamas put forward a counterproposal to an offer that was on the table. With all due respect, you're totally wrong: "Israel said Monday that an Egyptian-Qatari brokered hostage and ceasefire deal accepted by Hamas is "far from [their] requirements" but they plan to send a delegation to Cairo tomorrow to continue indirect talks.
CIA director Bill Burns is in Doha as part of the U.S. effort to secure the hostage deal."
www.axios.com/2024/05/06/hamas-israel-ceasefire-proposal-egypt-qatarThe ceasefire deal that Hamas agreed to was proposed by Egypt, Qatar, and the US. It was not a "Hamas counterproposal". Once again, you speak with authority on stuff without having done your homework first. It's never a good idea to shoot from the hip...
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on May 8, 2024 7:15:33 GMT -5
Probably the sensible thing for Israel to do is request a list of the prisoners Hamas wants, pull them in front of the cameras, and start decapitating them with machetes until Hamas agrees to release the Israeli hostages... most of which are likely already dead. Then, when all of the Israeli hostages are released, put the remaining Hamas prisoners in front of a wall and blow them into red mist. Things aren't going to get better with the Palestinians until the Israelis really pick up the ball and start treating them the way they treat Israelis. 100% of the population of Gaza has been displaced since October, 2023. How many Israelis have been made homeless by the war? Is there a famine in Israel? If this were America pre-Civil War, you would likely view the slave owners as the "victims" of abolitionists... You never want to address the cause of these things. And understandably so, because it means having to come face to face with the reality of who you support, who Hamas are and what they did on October 7. NONE of this would have happened if Hamas hadn't gone on a rampage in Israel. When that happened, Israel had no choice but to go hunt down the perpetrators. ALL of the fall out from that, including the displacements and the hunger in Gaza was DIRECTLY CAUSED by Hamas and its supporters. NONE of it can be resolved until Hamas and its supporters have been destroyed.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on May 8, 2024 7:17:58 GMT -5
Actually, Hamas didn't agree to a ceasefire. Hamas put forward a counterproposal to an offer that was on the table. With all due respect, you're totally wrong: "Israel said Monday that an Egyptian-Qatari brokered hostage and ceasefire deal accepted by Hamas is "far from [their] requirements" but they plan to send a delegation to Cairo tomorrow to continue indirect talks.
CIA director Bill Burns is in Doha as part of the U.S. effort to secure the hostage deal."
www.axios.com/2024/05/06/hamas-israel-ceasefire-proposal-egypt-qatarThe ceasefire deal that Hamas agreed to was proposed by Egypt, Qatar, and the US. It was not a "Hamas counterproposal". Once again, you speak with authority on stuff without having done your homework first. It's never a good idea to shoot from the hip... This article and your post directly confirms the truth of ishmael's post. Israel was not involved in the creation of this ceasefire deal, and was apparently not even consulted until Hamas was on board.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 8, 2024 7:29:44 GMT -5
With all due respect, you're totally wrong: "Israel said Monday that an Egyptian-Qatari brokered hostage and ceasefire deal accepted by Hamas is "far from [their] requirements" but they plan to send a delegation to Cairo tomorrow to continue indirect talks.
CIA director Bill Burns is in Doha as part of the U.S. effort to secure the hostage deal."
www.axios.com/2024/05/06/hamas-israel-ceasefire-proposal-egypt-qatarThe ceasefire deal that Hamas agreed to was proposed by Egypt, Qatar, and the US. It was not a "Hamas counterproposal". Once again, you speak with authority on stuff without having done your homework first. It's never a good idea to shoot from the hip... This article and your post directly confirms the truth of ishmael's post. Israel was not involved in the creation of this ceasefire deal, and was apparently not even consulted until Hamas was on board. Neither Israel nor Hamas proposed the ceasefire deal. It was an Egypt-Qatar-US proposal. Ishmael was incorrect to call it a “Hamas countoffer”. Netanyahu didn’t send a delegation to Cairo for talks on the proposal. That has been reported by Israeli news outlets.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on May 8, 2024 7:49:09 GMT -5
This article and your post directly confirms the truth of ishmael's post. Israel was not involved in the creation of this ceasefire deal, and was apparently not even consulted until Hamas was on board. Neither Israel nor Hamas proposed the ceasefire deal. It was an Egypt-Qatar-US proposal. Ishmael was incorrect to call it a “Hamas countoffer”. Netanyahu didn’t send a delegation to Cairo for talks on the proposal. That has been reported by Israeli news outlets. It was an agreement that Hamas accepted before it was presented to Israel. Perhaps ishmael could have said "Hamas-approved counter offer" to be more accurate, but at this point, you're arguing semantics. It really doesn't matter anyway. The time for Hamas to get on board with a ceasefire was back when there was reason to believe they still had living hostages. That window probably closed sometime back in January or February. While I'm sure the Israelis would like their bodies back, they're not going to make any big offers for them.
|
|
|
Post by pickle20 on May 8, 2024 7:51:38 GMT -5
Wait, Hamas still exists? It hasn't been eradicated yet? 35K dead, many of whom are women and children, and Hamas is still operating as usual?
When will Israel be satisfied?
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 8, 2024 9:40:02 GMT -5
Neither Israel nor Hamas proposed the ceasefire deal. It was an Egypt-Qatar-US proposal. Ishmael was incorrect to call it a “Hamas countoffer”. Netanyahu didn’t send a delegation to Cairo for talks on the proposal. That has been reported by Israeli news outlets. It was an agreement that Hamas accepted before it was presented to Israel. Perhaps ishmael could have said "Hamas-approved counter offer" to be more accurate, but at this point, you're arguing semantics. It really doesn't matter anyway. The time for Hamas to get on board with a ceasefire was back when there was reason to believe they still had living hostages. That window probably closed sometime back in January or February. While I'm sure the Israelis would like their bodies back, they're not going to make any big offers for them. I think you're missing the point. The US was part of negotiating the deal. Netanyahu could've sent representatives for his side to Cairo sooner. He chose not to. He has also said he's not going to end the war even if Hamas agrees to release the hostages. So the talking point that "the war will end if Hamas releases the hostages" has been debunked by Netanyahu himself.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 8, 2024 9:51:30 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 8, 2024 11:04:16 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 8, 2024 13:57:15 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 8, 2024 17:40:27 GMT -5
Meanwhile in Israel,
^Police are fighting with the family members of the hostages
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 9, 2024 6:30:35 GMT -5
Why we protest
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 9, 2024 8:15:21 GMT -5
^Israel-based critic of Israel
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 9, 2024 10:41:50 GMT -5
Biden admits that Israel has used US weapons to kill civilians
|
|
|
Post by JoyinMudville on May 9, 2024 11:41:09 GMT -5
I've said this before.
I think what is happening in Gaza is tragic and there are civilians there going through hell but the narrative being put forward by some here is that Israel is just walking through Gaza unopposed and slaughtering unarmed civilians. It simply defies logic. Are we supposed to believe that there are no Hamas fighters returning fire?
35,000 dead is a big number but we're supposed to assume that all 35,000 are innocent civilians and we're never told how many of these people are Hamas terrorists.
Not buying it.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 9, 2024 11:49:04 GMT -5
I've said this before. I think what is happening in Gaza is tragic and there are civilians there going through hell but the narrative being put forward by some here is that Israel is just walking through Gaza unopposed and slaughtering unarmed civilians. It simply defies logic. Are we supposed to believe that there are no Hamas fighters returning fire? 35,000 dead is a big number but we're supposed to assume that all 35,000 are innocent civilians and we're never told how many of these people are Hamas terrorists. Not buying it. Even if we assume that the murder of the 7 western World Central Kitchen employees was just an "accident", and that the murder of the 3 Israeli hostages who were waving white flags were "accidents", the very best-case scenario that explains that fact that 70% of the fatalities have been women and children is that Israel is neglecting their responsibility to avoid harming civilians. Being in a warzone doesn't negate the responsibility to do as much as possible to avoid harming civilians. In any other conflict, we would call the raiding and destruction of hospitals "blatant war crimes". And you have to be blind or deaf to have not seen or heard some of the genocidal stuff that Israeli politicians and their media personalities have said about Gaza since October. They have made it plain that they want to collectively punish the civilians in Gaza because they believe all of them support Hamas. It's not complicated. Some people are just willfully blind while others have a difficult time admitting that they were wrong. Lastly, it's almost certainly true that the 35,000 dead estimate is an undercount. The actual number of dead is likely higher.
|
|
|
Post by JoyinMudville on May 9, 2024 13:27:01 GMT -5
I've said this before. I think what is happening in Gaza is tragic and there are civilians there going through hell but the narrative being put forward by some here is that Israel is just walking through Gaza unopposed and slaughtering unarmed civilians. It simply defies logic. Are we supposed to believe that there are no Hamas fighters returning fire? 35,000 dead is a big number but we're supposed to assume that all 35,000 are innocent civilians and we're never told how many of these people are Hamas terrorists. Not buying it. Even if we assume that the murder of the 7 western World Central Kitchen employees was just an "accident", and that the murder of the 3 Israeli hostages who were waving white flags were "accidents", the very best-case scenario that explains that fact that 70% of the fatalities have been women and children is that Israel is neglecting their responsibility to avoid harming civilians. Or, that Hamas is embedded in the civilian population and doesn't care because they're martyrs
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 9, 2024 13:53:18 GMT -5
Even if we assume that the murder of the 7 western World Central Kitchen employees was just an "accident", and that the murder of the 3 Israeli hostages who were waving white flags were "accidents", the very best-case scenario that explains that fact that 70% of the fatalities have been women and children is that Israel is neglecting their responsibility to avoid harming civilians. Or, that Hamas is embedded in the civilian population and doesn't care because they're martyrs Honest question for you: If Hamas were hiding in a school in Midtown Manhattan, would you support the National Guard bombing the school to kill Hamas members inside despite the risks that the bomb will harm the students and teachers inside the school? If "yes", then you're being consistent. If "no", then you're being inconsistent. No one is arguing that Israel shouldn't go after the bad guys in Gaza. They had every Right to do so. The argument against Israel's behavior is that their response to Oct. 7th has been disproportionate and there's overwhelming evidence that they're routinely committing war crimes. There are ways to do counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency without starving and mass murdering civilians. What Israel is doing in Gaza ain't it. Lastly, Israeli officials have said since last October that: "There are no innocents in Gaza" or "Everyone in Gaza is Hamas" So we should maybe believe them and assume that they're intentionally targeting civilians because they believe all civilians in Gaza are legit targets.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on May 9, 2024 14:30:42 GMT -5
Major Democratic Party donor, Haim Saban, is angry at President Biden:
- Israel is not going to defeat Hamas the same way the US never defeated Al Qaeda, ISIS, or the Taliban. It's not possible in most cases to defeat an "idea" or "ideology"
- Both Muslims and non-Muslims primarily care about the civilians in Gaza, not Hamas.
- The 75 year conflict between Israel and the Palestinians requires a political solution not a "final solution" that involves ethnic cleansing and genocide
|
|