|
Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 7, 2023 2:44:53 GMT -5
On the anniversary of the 1973 Yom Kippur War There are horrific reports of attacks on civilians including a massacre at a bus stop in Sderot. As I said at the start of Putin's invasion of Ukraine, initial reports aren't always going to prove correct, but regardless, it's clear that this is a pretty major development and its going to play out for days/weeks/months www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/07/israel-gaza-rocket-attack-hamas/
|
|
|
Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 7, 2023 2:46:37 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 7, 2023 3:02:43 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 7, 2023 5:10:09 GMT -5
I’m not sure how this ends but it seems to have caught the Israelis by surprise.
The Palestinian militants also seem to have learned some lessons from the Russia-Ukraine war. Modern tanks are very vulnerable to cheap drones.
|
|
|
Post by kandace on Oct 7, 2023 7:01:33 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by WKDWZD on Oct 7, 2023 7:59:08 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by ishmael on Oct 7, 2023 8:32:10 GMT -5
This is not going to end well for Hamas.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 7, 2023 8:37:21 GMT -5
That’s sick. This isn’t a football game.
|
|
|
Post by augustwest on Oct 7, 2023 8:47:29 GMT -5
This is not going to end well for Hamas. It didn’t really start well for Hamas or the Palestinians. The status quo was untenable
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 7, 2023 8:52:44 GMT -5
This is not going to end well for Hamas. It didn’t really start well for Hamas or the Palestinians. The status quo was untenable Gaza has pretty much been an open air prison for the Palestinians who live there. Short of genocide, I’m not sure what Israel can do to them that they haven’t done already. And that’s the scary part.
|
|
|
Post by stevez51 on Oct 7, 2023 9:03:39 GMT -5
Billions to Iran buys lots of goodies for Hamas .
|
|
|
Post by WKDWZD on Oct 7, 2023 9:19:11 GMT -5
This is not going to end well for Hamas. It never does, but should they just lay down and die?
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 7, 2023 9:21:34 GMT -5
Hezbollah is threatening Israel’s northern front. Things could escalate further from there.
|
|
|
Post by WKDWZD on Oct 7, 2023 9:22:40 GMT -5
That’s sick. This isn’t a football game. It's a shame that it's not, if it were, at least it would be on a level pitch with equal sized goals and a set of rules. Israel would still have the most supporters though.
|
|
|
Post by grindelwald on Oct 7, 2023 10:43:04 GMT -5
As much as I’d love to blame Bibi for this, it appears Hamas is 100% responsible. They seem to be the Russia of this conflict.
|
|
|
Post by ishmael on Oct 7, 2023 10:44:42 GMT -5
This is not going to end well for Hamas. It didn’t really start well for Hamas or the Palestinians. The status quo was untenable And what, pray tell, did this attack accomplish? There will likely be ten dead people that had resided in the Gaza Strip for every Israeli killed. Some may be even be part of Hamas. Hamas just gave Israel carte blanche to handle Gaza and Hamas anyway it wants to do so and they are not going to be gentle and, perhaps, not even rational. In the north, Hezbollah is already making "we're with you on this piece, Hamas " noises and Israel is moving quickly to a full war setting and is calling up reserves. It is not difficult to imagine Syria seeing a distracted Israel as a means to distract from its own internal problems - and Golan hasn't been more inviting in a generation. Iran is, more than likely, the supplier to Hamas of the more than 2,200 rockets that have already landed in Israel - this just weeks after Biden releases $6B in frozen assets...for humanitarian purposes only. This mess is about a hair's breath away from enflamming the entirety of the ME - and for what? This was a tactical victory of no value and a complete strategic loss for Hamas. Nothing was accomplished other than Hamas being able to yell at the top of their lungs "we're still relevant". What a moronic waste of life and treasure. All that aside, I'm betting the head of Mossad is taking a hard look at his life insurance policy today.
|
|
|
Post by WKDWZD on Oct 7, 2023 10:45:27 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by WKDWZD on Oct 7, 2023 10:51:03 GMT -5
It didn’t really start well for Hamas or the Palestinians. The status quo was untenable And what, pray tell, did this attack accomplish? There will likely be ten dead people that had resided in the Gaza Strip for every Israeli killed. Some may be even be part of Hamas. Hamas just gave Israel carte blanche to handle Gaza and Hamas anyway it wants to do so and they are not going to be gentle and, perhaps, not even rational. In the north, Hezbollah is already making "we're with you on this piece, Hamas " noises and Israel is moving quickly to a full war setting and is calling up reserves. It is not difficult to imagine Syria seeing a distracted Israel as a means to distract from its own internal problems - and Golan hasn't been more inviting in a generation. Iran is, more than likely, the supplier to Hamas of the more than 2,200 rockets that have already landed in Israel - this just weeks after Biden releases $6B in frozen assets...for humanitarian purposes only. This mess is about a hair's breath away from enflamming the entirety of the ME - and for what? This was a tactical victory of no value and a complete strategic loss for Hamas. Nothing was accomplished other than Hamas being able to yell at the top of their lungs "we're still relevant". What a moronic waste of life and treasure. All that aside, I'm betting the head of Mossad is taking a hard look at his life insurance policy today. So far, around 50 hostages, some high ranking "military officials"
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 7, 2023 11:03:59 GMT -5
As much as I’d love to blame Bibi for this, it appears Hamas is 100% responsible. They seem to be the Russia of this conflict. I don’t like Hamas’ tactics but Israel are the colonizers/occupiers in this conflict. It’s really twisted to imply that Palestinian resistance fighters don’t have as much legitimacy as Ukrainian resistance to Russian occupation.
|
|
|
Post by ishmael on Oct 7, 2023 11:05:16 GMT -5
And what, pray tell, did this attack accomplish? There will likely be ten dead people that had resided in the Gaza Strip for every Israeli killed. Some may be even be part of Hamas. Hamas just gave Israel carte blanche to handle Gaza and Hamas anyway it wants to do so and they are not going to be gentle and, perhaps, not even rational. In the north, Hezbollah is already making "we're with you on this piece, Hamas " noises and Israel is moving quickly to a full war setting and is calling up reserves. It is not difficult to imagine Syria seeing a distracted Israel as a means to distract from its own internal problems - and Golan hasn't been more inviting in a generation. Iran is, more than likely, the supplier to Hamas of the more than 2,200 rockets that have already landed in Israel - this just weeks after Biden releases $6B in frozen assets...for humanitarian purposes only. This mess is about a hair's breath away from enflamming the entirety of the ME - and for what? This was a tactical victory of no value and a complete strategic loss for Hamas. Nothing was accomplished other than Hamas being able to yell at the top of their lungs "we're still relevant". What a moronic waste of life and treasure. All that aside, I'm betting the head of Mossad is taking a hard look at his life insurance policy today. So far, around 50 hostages, some high ranking "military officials" So, nothing, really. Israel is not going to cede anything because a terrorist gang has taken hostages. Munich showed us that. I think it is a pretty solid bet that they are going into Gaza, in force, and if Hezbollah wants to get into the fight, the Israelis will address that as well. This attack was the textbook definition of stupid and wasteful, and Hamas is, I think, going to pay a heavy price.
|
|
|
Post by ishmael on Oct 7, 2023 11:08:06 GMT -5
As much as I’d love to blame Bibi for this, it appears Hamas is 100% responsible. They seem to be the Russia of this conflict. I don’t like Hamas’ tactics but Israel are the colonizers/occupiers in this conflict. It’s really twisted to imply that Palestinian resistance fighters don’t have as much legitimacy as Ukrainian resistance to Russian occupation. Hamas is Russia in this scenario and it has no legitimacy. These are not resistance fighters, they are terrorists and already stories of killing unarmed civilians and knocking on the doors of Israeli homes are running thru the space.
|
|
summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
|
Post by summer23 on Oct 7, 2023 12:08:14 GMT -5
And what, pray tell, did this attack accomplish? There will likely be ten dead people that had resided in the Gaza Strip for every Israeli killed. Some may be even be part of Hamas. Hamas just gave Israel carte blanche to handle Gaza and Hamas anyway it wants to do so and they are not going to be gentle and, perhaps, not even rational. In the north, Hezbollah is already making "we're with you on this piece, Hamas " noises and Israel is moving quickly to a full war setting and is calling up reserves. It is not difficult to imagine Syria seeing a distracted Israel as a means to distract from its own internal problems - and Golan hasn't been more inviting in a generation. Iran is, more than likely, the supplier to Hamas of the more than 2,200 rockets that have already landed in Israel - this just weeks after Biden releases $6B in frozen assets...for humanitarian purposes only. This mess is about a hair's breath away from enflamming the entirety of the ME - and for what? This was a tactical victory of no value and a complete strategic loss for Hamas. Nothing was accomplished other than Hamas being able to yell at the top of their lungs "we're still relevant". What a moronic waste of life and treasure. All that aside, I'm betting the head of Mossad is taking a hard look at his life insurance policy today. So far, around 50 hostages, some high ranking "military officials" Yeah. It's a bit more than that. www.cnn.com/
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 7, 2023 12:15:11 GMT -5
I don’t like Hamas’ tactics but Israel are the colonizers/occupiers in this conflict. It’s really twisted to imply that Palestinian resistance fighters don’t have as much legitimacy as Ukrainian resistance to Russian occupation. Hamas is Russia in this scenario and it has no legitimacy. These are not resistance fighters, they are terrorists and already stories of killing unarmed civilians and knocking on the doors of Israeli homes are running thru the space. You’ve got it backwards. The Palestinians in Gaza have no self-determination. Israel controls their destiny. Ukraine is a sovereign state so they at least have more legal recognition of their right to self-determination. What’s the excuse for denying Palestinians their human rights? And what do we expect them to do when all other forms of resistance have failed? Just leave? I don’t condone terrorism but let’s not ignore the history of how Israel was created and the conditions Palestinians live under. It’s an apartheid state.
|
|
summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
|
Post by summer23 on Oct 7, 2023 12:21:40 GMT -5
I find it offensive that you called Hamas terrorists (redundant, I know) "freedom fighters", soulflower. Do you think that all terrorists are "freedom fighters" or just certain ones?
|
|
|
Post by ishmael on Oct 7, 2023 12:31:18 GMT -5
Hamas is Russia in this scenario and it has no legitimacy. These are not resistance fighters, they are terrorists and already stories of killing unarmed civilians and knocking on the doors of Israeli homes are running thru the space. You’ve got it backwards. The Palestinians in Gaza have no self-determination. Israel controls their destiny. Ukraine is a sovereign state so they at least have more legal recognition of their right to self-determination. What’s the excuse for denying Palestinians their human rights? And what do we expect them to do when all other forms of resistance have failed? Just leave? I don’t condone terrorism but let’s not ignore the history of how Israel was created and the conditions Palestinians live under. It’s an apartheid state. More nonsense and you are, in fact, condoning terrorism. If Hamas wants to attack military targets, more power to them. Firing 2200 unguided rockets solely for the purpose of random destruction is not resistance fighting, it is gutless terrorism that justifies every action Israel will take. Yes, the Israeli people used terror tactics in establishing their State, a State that was created when the UN recognized their right to exist. A week later they were at war against most of the ME, fighting it on land that the then existing State of Palestine allowed to be used for that purpose. You are justifying Hamas attacks against civilians. What will you justify when Israel seeks to punish Hamas?
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 7, 2023 12:36:33 GMT -5
I find it offensive that you called Hamas terrorists (redundant, I know) "freedom fighters", soulflower. Do you think that all terrorists are "freedom fighters" or just certain ones? When did I call Hamas “freedom fighters”? I’ve long criticized Hamas’ tactics. I sympathize with the Palestinian people not Hamas. But you’re aware that Hamas wouldn’t exist if not for Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians correct? Israel is not blameless. They commit terrorism and repression against the Palestinians and they’ve gotten it back in return. It’s not Black and White. It’s all shades of Gray.
|
|
|
Post by ishmael on Oct 7, 2023 12:40:36 GMT -5
I find it offensive that you called Hamas terrorists (redundant, I know) "freedom fighters", soulflower. Do you think that all terrorists are "freedom fighters" or just certain ones? When did I call Hamas “freedom fighters”? I’ve long criticized Hamas’ tactics. I sympathize with the Palestinian people not Hamas. But you’re aware that Hamas wouldn’t exist if not for Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians correct? Israel is not blameless. They commit terrorism and repression against the Palestinians and they’ve gotten it back in return. It’s not Black and White. It’s all shades of Gray. It's only gray to you. Israel has the right to exist, a right that the nations of the ME have collectively worked to deny. You want peace there? It doesn't begin in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv. It begins with the various States of the ME recognizing and protecting Israel's inherent right to be.
|
|
summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
|
Post by summer23 on Oct 7, 2023 12:42:39 GMT -5
I find it offensive that you called Hamas terrorists (redundant, I know) "freedom fighters", soulflower. Do you think that all terrorists are "freedom fighters" or just certain ones? When did I call Hamas “freedom fighters”? I’ve long criticized Hamas’ tactics. I sympathize with the Palestinian people not Hamas. But you’re aware that Hamas wouldn’t exist if not for Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians correct? Israel is not blameless. They commit terrorism and repression against the Palestinians and they’ve gotten it back in return. It’s not Black and White. It’s all shades of Gray. You are correct my mistake. "Freedom fighters" not what they are -- terrorists.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 7, 2023 12:45:35 GMT -5
When did I call Hamas “freedom fighters”? I’ve long criticized Hamas’ tactics. I sympathize with the Palestinian people not Hamas. But you’re aware that Hamas wouldn’t exist if not for Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians correct? Israel is not blameless. They commit terrorism and repression against the Palestinians and they’ve gotten it back in return. It’s not Black and White. It’s all shades of Gray. It's only gray to you. Israel has the right to exist, a right that the nations of the ME have collectively worked to deny. You want peace there? It doesn't begin in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv. It begins with the various States of the ME recognizing and protecting Israel's inherent right to be. It’s gray to lots of people besides me. Those of us who don’t look away when Israel murders Palestinian children. I don’t condone terrorism or war. I just don’t know what some of you expect from both sides at this point as they seemingly become more and more radicalized.
|
|
summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
|
Post by summer23 on Oct 7, 2023 12:53:45 GMT -5
It's only gray to you. Israel has the right to exist, a right that the nations of the ME have collectively worked to deny. You want peace there? It doesn't begin in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv. It begins with the various States of the ME recognizing and protecting Israel's inherent right to be. It’s gray to lots of people besides me. Those of us who don’t look away when Israel murders Palestinian children. I don’t condone terrorism or war. I just don’t know what some of you expect from both sides at this point as they seemingly become more and more radicalized. I don't think you condone terrorism per se, but I do think you are willing to look aways when terrorist acts serve a purpose you are sympathetic to.
|
|