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Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 7, 2023 13:02:19 GMT -5
As much as I’d love to blame Bibi for this, it appears Hamas is 100% responsible. They seem to be the Russia of this conflict. It’s really twisted to imply that Palestinian resistance fighters Going into a neighborhood and gunning down little ole ladies waiting for the bus doesn't make you a resistance fighter. It's terrorism
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Post by ishmael on Oct 7, 2023 13:03:21 GMT -5
It's only gray to you. Israel has the right to exist, a right that the nations of the ME have collectively worked to deny. You want peace there? It doesn't begin in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv. It begins with the various States of the ME recognizing and protecting Israel's inherent right to be. It’s gray to lots of people besides me. Those of us who don’t look away when Israel murders Palestinian children. I don’t condone terrorism or war. I just don’t know what some of you expect from both sides at this point as they seemingly become more and more radicalized. I expect that things will continue exactly as they are with ME nations supplying weapons and logistics support to terrorist groups solely for the purpose of denying Israel's right to exist. I expect that Israel will continue to respond with great force to such incidents. I expect that many nations of the ME will continue to use the people of Gaza and the West Bank as fodder to push forward their hatred of Israel, without regard to the lives of these people, so long as it allows their hatred of Israel to continue.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 7, 2023 13:07:29 GMT -5
It’s gray to lots of people besides me. Those of us who don’t look away when Israel murders Palestinian children. I don’t condone terrorism or war. I just don’t know what some of you expect from both sides at this point as they seemingly become more and more radicalized. I don't think you condone terrorism per se, but I do think you are willing to look aways when terrorist acts serve a purpose you are sympathetic to. Give me some examples. Cite examples of me condoning terrorism or political violence and we can discuss. Otherwise, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I’ve seen some on the forum apologize for Ukraine’s terrorism against Russian civilians but we’ve discussed that issue enough times and I don’t think it needs to be rehashed.
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Post by ishmael on Oct 7, 2023 13:15:06 GMT -5
I don't think you condone terrorism per se, but I do think you are willing to look aways when terrorist acts serve a purpose you are sympathetic to. Give me some examples. Cite examples of me condoning terrorism or political violence and we can discuss. Otherwise, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I’ve seen some on the forum apologize for Ukraine’s terrorism against Russian civilians but we’ve discussed that issue enough times and I don’t think it needs to be rehashed. Just read this thread.
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Post by zenwalk on Oct 7, 2023 13:15:49 GMT -5
On the surface it seems safe to say this is Iran's official response to the cozying up of Israel and Saudi Arabia in the Abraham Accords. The scale of this invasion is incredible especially given this was done under the nose of the Mossad. The use of gliders is amazing. Got to hand it to Hamas whatever else you think of this.
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Post by grindelwald on Oct 7, 2023 13:28:44 GMT -5
It’s gray to lots of people besides me. Those of us who don’t look away when Israel murders Palestinian children. I don’t condone terrorism or war. I just don’t know what some of you expect from both sides at this point as they seemingly become more and more radicalized. I don't think you condone terrorism per se, but I do think you are willing to look aways when terrorist acts serve a purpose you are sympathetic to. Hit the nail on the head right there.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 7, 2023 13:32:58 GMT -5
Give me some examples. Cite examples of me condoning terrorism or political violence and we can discuss. Otherwise, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I’ve seen some on the forum apologize for Ukraine’s terrorism against Russian civilians but we’ve discussed that issue enough times and I don’t think it needs to be rehashed. Just read this thread. Rich coming from you.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 7, 2023 13:45:50 GMT -5
On the surface it seems safe to say this is Iran's official response to the cozying up of Israel and Saudi Arabia in the Abraham Accords. The scale of this invasion is incredible especially given this was done under the nose of the Mossad. The use of gliders is amazing. Got to hand it to Hamas whatever else you think of this. There are no friends in the politics of the Middle East. Just frenemies.
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Post by zenwalk on Oct 7, 2023 13:46:35 GMT -5
It’s gray to lots of people besides me. Those of us who don’t look away when Israel murders Palestinian children. I don’t condone terrorism or war. I just don’t know what some of you expect from both sides at this point as they seemingly become more and more radicalized. I don't think you condone terrorism per se, but I do think you are willing to look aways when terrorist acts serve a purpose you are sympathetic to. SF has a keen sense of social justice. I too can feel the exasperation of a minority too shut off behind a wall, harassed, surveilled, monitored. Hamas has shone the human heart still beats for liberty in even the most forgotten places. Israel looks to be fighting another asymmetrical war. The difference now is the cost of finely tuned death delivery systems have become affordable, precise and easy to hide, easy to deploy. Our weapons have become too dangerous for to ignore social injustice which the majority wishes to disappear. Israel in many ways is the canary in the coalmine for America.
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Post by zenwalk on Oct 7, 2023 13:50:02 GMT -5
On the surface it seems safe to say this is Iran's official response to the cozying up of Israel and Saudi Arabia in the Abraham Accords. The scale of this invasion is incredible especially given this was done under the nose of the Mossad. The use of gliders is amazing. Got to hand it to Hamas whatever else you think of this. There are no friends in the politics world of the Middle East. Just frenemies. That's true for the Middle East for sure. The Western alliance requires a dependence and much of that is cultural. That dependence is fraying.
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Post by ishmael on Oct 7, 2023 14:07:55 GMT -5
I don't think you condone terrorism per se, but I do think you are willing to look aways when terrorist acts serve a purpose you are sympathetic to. SF has a keen sense of social justice. I too can feel the exasperation of a minority too shut off behind a wall, harassed, surveilled, monitored. Hamas has shone the human heart still beats for liberty in even the most forgotten places. Israel looks to be fighting another asymmetrical war. The difference now is the cost of finely tuned death delivery systems have become affordable, precise and easy to hide, easy to deploy. Our weapons have become too dangerous for to ignore social injustice which the majority wishes to disappear. Israel in many ways is the canary in the coalmine for America. There is NOTHING "finely tuned" or "precise" about the death delivery system Hamas used this morning. This was wanton terrorism delivered in a high-tech manner, nothing more. This was irregular forces targeting unarmed civilians. This was irregular forces firing explosives with no control over where they were going to land. If Hamas wants to take on Israel's military, they should do so. At least that would be honorable and more or less legal. This ain't that. This is terror writ large.
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Post by zenwalk on Oct 7, 2023 14:37:17 GMT -5
SF has a keen sense of social justice. I too can feel the exasperation of a minority too shut off behind a wall, harassed, surveilled, monitored. Hamas has shone the human heart still beats for liberty in even the most forgotten places. Israel looks to be fighting another asymmetrical war. The difference now is the cost of finely tuned death delivery systems have become affordable, precise and easy to hide, easy to deploy. Our weapons have become too dangerous for to ignore social injustice which the majority wishes to disappear. Israel in many ways is the canary in the coalmine for America. There is NOTHING "finely tuned" or "precise" about the death delivery system Hamas used this morning. This was wanton terrorism delivered in a high-tech manner, nothing more. This was irregular forces targeting unarmed civilians. This was irregular forces firing explosives with no control over where they were going to land. If Hamas wants to take on Israel's military, they should do so. At least that would be honorable and more or less legal. This ain't that. This is terror writ large. It's the intent of every heavily militarized power to have disputes settled that way with hopelessly outnumbered opponents. Yes, it is terror writ large. No one is condoning it but every oppressed people in the world secretly admires a ghettoized minority with the temerity to strike back. We've become numb to that. To paraphrase Keats our center has not held. Israel and America side with Goliath now.
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Post by ishmael on Oct 7, 2023 14:39:50 GMT -5
There is NOTHING "finely tuned" or "precise" about the death delivery system Hamas used this morning. This was wanton terrorism delivered in a high-tech manner, nothing more. This was irregular forces targeting unarmed civilians. This was irregular forces firing explosives with no control over where they were going to land. If Hamas wants to take on Israel's military, they should do so. At least that would be honorable and more or less legal. This ain't that. This is terror writ large. It's the intent of every heavily militarized power to have disputes settled that way with hopelessly outnumbered opponents. Yes, it is terror writ large. No one is condoning it but every oppressed people in the world secretly admires a ghettoized minority with the temerity to strike back. We've become numb to that. To paraphrase Keats our center has not held. Israel and America side with Goliath now. This isn't "striking back" at Israel; this is terror striking out at unarmed civilians. Don't make heroes out of murderers.
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 7, 2023 14:57:15 GMT -5
So far, around 50 hostages, some high ranking "military officials" So, nothing, really. Israel is not going to cede anything because a terrorist gang has taken hostages. Munich showed us that. I think it is a pretty solid bet that they are going into Gaza, in force, and if Hezbollah wants to get into the fight, the Israelis will address that as well. This attack was the textbook definition of stupid and wasteful, and Hamas is, I think, going to pay a heavy price. This is probably the beginning of the end for Hamas, the Palestinian Authority and the Gaza Strip and West Bank as quasi-independent entities.
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Post by ishmael on Oct 7, 2023 15:15:56 GMT -5
So, nothing, really. Israel is not going to cede anything because a terrorist gang has taken hostages. Munich showed us that. I think it is a pretty solid bet that they are going into Gaza, in force, and if Hezbollah wants to get into the fight, the Israelis will address that as well. This attack was the textbook definition of stupid and wasteful, and Hamas is, I think, going to pay a heavy price. This is probably the beginning of the end for Hamas, the Palestinian Authority and the Gaza Strip and West Bank as quasi-independent entities. One can hope, but I strongly doubt it. Bullets can't kill an idea. I don't object to the people of Gaza fighting for an independent State. I do object to off-State funded terrorists launching hundreds of unguided rockets for the specific purpose of killing as many random people as possible.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 7, 2023 15:15:59 GMT -5
Give me some examples. Cite examples of me condoning terrorism or political violence and we can discuss. Otherwise, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I’ve seen some on the forum apologize for Ukraine’s terrorism against Russian civilians but we’ve discussed that issue enough times and I don’t think it needs to be rehashed. You just can't help yourself. OK, I'll bite, what the actual f are you talking about?
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Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 7, 2023 15:16:53 GMT -5
I don't think you condone terrorism per se, but I do think you are willing to look aways when terrorist acts serve a purpose you are sympathetic to. SF has a keen sense of social justice. That's hilarious
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 7, 2023 15:25:19 GMT -5
This is probably the beginning of the end for Hamas, the Palestinian Authority and the Gaza Strip and West Bank as quasi-independent entities. One can hope, but I strongly doubt it. Bullets can't kill an idea. I don't object to the people of Gaza fighting for an independent State. I do object to off-State funded terrorists launching hundreds of unguided rockets for the specific purpose of killing as many random people as possible. No, but they can kill all the leaders of Hamas and the PA. Gaza and the West Bank are not large areas. The IDF shouldn't have any difficulty fully occupying these areas and hunting down the organizers of this attack.
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 7, 2023 15:29:21 GMT -5
Hamas certainly shouldn’t be targeting Israeli civilians but when Israel kills thousands of Palestinian civilians every year it’s called “mowing the grass” by Israeli extremists and hardliners. Some of you couldn’t even condemn Israel for murdering an American-Palestinian journalist last year. So spare me the selective outrage. And some of you just make up BS about Israel. Even the most pro-Palestianian figures have Israel killing 231 Palestinians last year - and 2022 was a bad year: mondoweiss.net/2022/12/231-palestinians-were-killed-this-year-these-are-their-stories/This isn't anything close to "thousands." Spare us all your nonsense.
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Post by ishmael on Oct 7, 2023 16:05:43 GMT -5
One can hope, but I strongly doubt it. Bullets can't kill an idea. I don't object to the people of Gaza fighting for an independent State. I do object to off-State funded terrorists launching hundreds of unguided rockets for the specific purpose of killing as many random people as possible. No, but they can kill all the leaders of Hamas and the PA. Gaza and the West Bank are not large areas. The IDF shouldn't have any difficulty fully occupying these areas and hunting down the organizers of this attack. We've been killing the "leaders" of terrorist groups for three decades. There is always another leader ready to step up.
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 7, 2023 16:18:00 GMT -5
No, but they can kill all the leaders of Hamas and the PA. Gaza and the West Bank are not large areas. The IDF shouldn't have any difficulty fully occupying these areas and hunting down the organizers of this attack. We've been killing the "leaders" of terrorist groups for three decades. There is always another leader ready to step up. Oh I donno... knocking off OBL did a job on AlQaida. And the thing with the Palestinian territories is the leaders in both the West Bank and Gaza dictators now. The Palestinians haven't held parliamentary or presidential elections since 2006. Those elections were followed by a round of inter-Palestinian violence while Hamas and the Palestinian Authority fought among themselves for control. Most likely taking out leadership and a sizable chunk of the Parliament results in another round of infighting between Hamas and the PA while the next batch of terrorists kill each other for control... because that's what Hamas and the PA are all about.
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Post by zenwalk on Oct 7, 2023 17:00:53 GMT -5
This is probably the beginning of the end for Hamas, the Palestinian Authority and the Gaza Strip and West Bank as quasi-independent entities. One can hope, but I strongly doubt it. Bullets can't kill an idea. I don't object to the people of Gaza fighting for an independent State. I do object to off-State funded terrorists launching hundreds of unguided rockets for the specific purpose of killing as many random people as possible. Why? Because that's not sporting? How about some alternate fantasy that equalizes the situation? Maybe a higher wall will do it.
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Post by zenwalk on Oct 7, 2023 17:03:35 GMT -5
SF has a keen sense of social justice. That's hilarious His stance on Ukraine is not ideal and his mind is a bit too open from rightwing drafts but he's definitely a social justice guy., It's hard to see sometimes.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 7, 2023 17:04:39 GMT -5
Mowing the grass in Gazawww.pressenza.com/2022/08/mowing-the-grass-in-gaza/It’s horrible how much they hate each other and in this war, neither side has the moral highground. However, Palestinians don’t have human rights and haven’t had self-determination pretty much ever. So things will likely continue to get worse over there.
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Post by kandace on Oct 7, 2023 17:06:00 GMT -5
Both of my grandmothers used to say a hard head makes for a soft behind. Israel’s head has been hard for decades. It just got a minor swat on the behind. The true paddling will be epic, actually, Biblical.
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Post by guido2 on Oct 7, 2023 17:06:03 GMT -5
As much as I’d love to blame Bibi for this, it appears Hamas is 100% responsible. They seem to be the Russia of this conflict. I don’t like Hamas’ tactics but Israel are the colonizers/occupiers in this conflict. It’s really twisted to imply that Palestinian resistance fighters don’t have as much legitimacy as Ukrainian resistance to Russian occupation. Ahhhh, look up 1947 in the time line. When you come down to it. The Brits, are the ones that created the situation. Because the Brits just left, and in the aftermath did a lame job of negotiation, and the predecessor of the UN put together an offer where what is now Israel got around 20% of the land, the remainder was alloted to Palestine. What is now Israel, took the offer, the Palestinians refused. And here we are.
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Post by guido2 on Oct 7, 2023 17:10:56 GMT -5
As much as I’d love to blame Bibi for this, it appears Hamas is 100% responsible. They seem to be the Russia of this conflict. I don’t like Hamas’ tactics but Israel are the colonizers/occupiers in this conflict. It’s really twisted to imply that Palestinian resistance fighters don’t have as much legitimacy as Ukrainian resistance to Russian occupation. In 1947 the Palestinians should have taken the deal that gave around 20% of the land to the Jews, as there was not Israel state, and the remainder was given to the Palestinians. Just say'n
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 7, 2023 17:18:35 GMT -5
I don’t like Hamas’ tactics but Israel are the colonizers/occupiers in this conflict. It’s really twisted to imply that Palestinian resistance fighters don’t have as much legitimacy as Ukrainian resistance to Russian occupation. In 1947 the Palestinians should have taken the deal that gave around 20% of the land to the Jews, as there was not Israel state, and the remainder was given to the Palestinians. Just say'n Would you have given 20% of the US to the Jews? No? How about 10% or even 5%? No, I didn't think so.
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 7, 2023 17:24:36 GMT -5
SF has a keen sense of social justice. I too can feel the exasperation of a minority too shut off behind a wall, harassed, surveilled, monitored. Hamas has shone the human heart still beats for liberty in even the most forgotten places. Israel looks to be fighting another asymmetrical war. The difference now is the cost of finely tuned death delivery systems have become affordable, precise and easy to hide, easy to deploy. Our weapons have become too dangerous for to ignore social injustice which the majority wishes to disappear. Israel in many ways is the canary in the coalmine for America. There is NOTHING "finely tuned" or "precise" about the death delivery system Hamas used this morning. This was wanton terrorism delivered in a high-tech manner, nothing more. This was irregular forces targeting unarmed civilians. This was irregular forces firing explosives with no control over where they were going to land. If Hamas wants to take on Israel's military, they should do so. At least that would be honorable and more or less legal. This ain't that. This is terror writ large. It's pretty hard to take out a military target with the comparative equivalent of a slingshot from within the Gaza prison.
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Post by guido2 on Oct 7, 2023 17:28:42 GMT -5
Just a few general points. - The Brits bailed (as in left for the clueless) on the area ... much like Trump bailed on Afganistan..... leaving a mess for everybody else (Biden/the world) to attempt to figure out. - While the Brits were having tea, the rest of the world negotiated to try and separate those that believed in God and those that believed in Allah. - Palestine was offered 80% of the country with the Jews getting 20. Palestine refused. So in the end the Jews got more land than was proposed. Palestine of course was not happy. - The Middle East has been a quagmire for fiefdoms, warlords, money and power gatherers way way before Jesus. The area has been in constant turmoil ..... like forever. If one studies history that is known. - And IMHO I at the point after reaching 70 and watching all this crap go on for decades, and yeah I have studied the ME's general stupidity in regard to 'getting along'.... which they don't. I don't care anymore. Short of a nuclear war, it is their problem, the Jews, the Iranians, the Palestinians, the piss azz cult or what ever country the side of Connecticut has a beef. Don't care.... face it.... if not for the oil being possibly around in the general area..... or now lithium ore. Nobody would give a damn about the entire.....AND i MEAN ENTIRE.... MIDDLE EAST. Rant over....................
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