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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 24, 2024 6:04:09 GMT -5
208 Republican and Democratic members of the House have sent a sign on letter to the Secretary of State Anthony Blinken denouncing South Africa's genocide charges at the ICJ. That's a pretty big number although it strikes as interesting that they didn't wait to get over 218 members (which would mean a majority). The letter was led by Reps. Chris Smith (R-NJ) and Kathy Manning (D-NC), Co-Chairs of the House Task Force for Combating Antisemitism Also interesting to me that neither the Speaker nor the House Minority Leader appear to be on the letter. chrissmith.house.gov/uploadedfiles/smith_manning_letter_to_sec._blinken_re._south_africa_claims_against_israel_at_ijc_1.23.24.pdf
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Post by soulflower on Jan 24, 2024 7:16:37 GMT -5
shocker!
Israel via pro-Israel lobbying groups, has a disproportionate influence over members of Congress.
AIPAC and similar groups should be required to register as foreign agents.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 24, 2024 7:22:50 GMT -5
shocker! Israel via pro-Israel lobbying groups, has a disproportionate influence over members of Congress. AIPAC and similar groups should be required to register as foreign agents. I think we've seen some movement away from knee jerk support of Israel in this congress but that doesn't mean that there doesn't remain wide-spread and bi-partisan support for that country. Furthermore, and as the letter points out, a lot of people have some trouble charging Israel with genocide when what the country is doing is in direct response to worst pogrom against the Jews since the Holocaust. What's happening in Gaza is horrific and I want Netanyahu gone but the letter is still noteworthy
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Post by soulflower on Jan 24, 2024 8:15:17 GMT -5
Furthermore, and as the letter points out, a lot of people have some trouble charging Israel with genocide when what the country is doing is in direct response to worst pogrom against the Jews since the Holocaust. "Terrorism" is not an excuse to commit genocide. Full stop with your excuses. Having been abused doesn't give you a pass for abusing other people. See Bosnia or Namibia for prior examples of genocides that followed acts of terror or war crimes.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 24, 2024 8:30:07 GMT -5
Furthermore, and as the letter points out, a lot of people have some trouble charging Israel with genocide when what the country is doing is in direct response to worst pogrom against the Jews since the Holocaust. "Terrorism" is not an excuse to commit genocide. Full stop with your excuses. Having been abused doesn't give you a pass for abusing other people. See Bosnia or Namibia for prior examples of genocides that followed acts of terror or war crimes. I’m not making excuses, I’m explaining something to you. By the way, nothing is more hypocritical than the guy who has repeatedly downplayed the genocidal invasion of Ukraine accusing someone else of ‘making excuses’. Take your beef to the 208 members of Congress who don’t agree with you, or South Africa
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Post by soulflower on Jan 24, 2024 8:43:34 GMT -5
"Terrorism" is not an excuse to commit genocide. Full stop with your excuses. Having been abused doesn't give you a pass for abusing other people. See Bosnia or Namibia for prior examples of genocides that followed acts of terror or war crimes. I’m not making excuses, I’m explaining something to you. You're rationalizing Israel's response to Oct. 7th and I strongly disagree with that explanation for their war crimes. At a minimum, Israel has routinely committed systematic war crimes in Gaza. The court might acknowledge that while falling short of concluding that it's plausibly a genocide (which typically takes years to prove in these situations).
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 24, 2024 8:45:52 GMT -5
I’m not making excuses, I’m explaining something to you. You're rationalizing Israel's response to Oct. 7th and I strongly disagree. No, I am pointing out that a lot of people, including these 208 members of Congress, have a problem with labeling Israel’s response to the worst pogrom against the Jews since the Holocaust a genocide. I don’t know how I could be anymore clear
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Post by soulflower on Jan 24, 2024 8:51:56 GMT -5
You're rationalizing Israel's response to Oct. 7th and I strongly disagree. No, I am pointing out that a lot of people, including these 208 members of Congress, have a problem with labeling Israel’s response to the worst pogrom against the Jews since the Holocaust a genocide. I don’t know how I could be anymore clear It's noted. And I reject anyone who thinks Israel should get special treatment and can never be held accountable for their own actions. Including members of Congress who are afraid of AIPAC.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 24, 2024 18:55:00 GMT -5
The ICJ is going to rule on Friday. Should be interesting
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 25, 2024 5:29:50 GMT -5
Needless to say, there may be other internal documents which don't cast Israel in a positive light
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Post by soulflower on Jan 25, 2024 7:38:49 GMT -5
Needless to say, there may be other internal documents which don't cast Israel in a positive light Does anyone believe Nazi Germany knew they were committing genocide during the Holocaust? Usually, the accused deny what they’re being accused of. I understand that ‘intent’ is difficult to prove legally in terms of genocide. Hence why I won’t be surprised if the court stops short of concluding that a genocide is in progress in Gaza. However, the evidence of ‘intent’ is more obvious in the Israel-Gaza example than most other cases. There are mountains of examples of Israeli officials expressing genocidal intent or intent to commit systematic war crimes against Gazans. There are mountains of examples of Israeli soldiers repeating genocidal rhetoric that originates from Israeli politicians or Israeli media. And Israeli officials are in the process of attempting to get other countries to help them relocate the people of Gaza to other countries. They want Gaza cleared out of its residents. It’s clear that the war isn’t solely about defeating Hamas. If that were the case, they would’ve chosen smarter tactics. Not mass destruction and collective punishment. If Iran or China were accused based on the same exact evidence, it would be an open and shut case. But Israel is unconditionally supported by several major western countries, which means geopolitics may be a factor in how the court rules.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 25, 2024 7:51:01 GMT -5
Needless to say, there may be other internal documents which don't cast Israel in a positive light Does anyone believe Nazi Germany knew they were committing genocide during the Holocaust? Yes. The NAZI leadership and party laid out a specific and detailed plan for eliminating the Jewish population of Europe. Starting in the early 30s with the Aryan Codes they began a widespread and society wide campaign of discrimination and segregation of the Jewish population leading ultimately up to Krystalnatcht. At the Wannsee Conference they literally created a spread sheet with the numbers of Jews in each country to be eradicated. The apparatus of the Holocaust pervaded that society, from the death squads operating during Operation Barbarossa to the transportation and logistical network that shipped millions of Jews and others to the camps. Did every single German know the full extent of it? No, but a larger segment of that population either fully understood or had an idea of what was happening than they ever admitted.
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Post by soulflower on Jan 25, 2024 9:15:44 GMT -5
Does anyone believe Nazi Germany knew they were committing genocide during the Holocaust? Yes. The NAZI leadership and party laid out a specific and detailed plan for eliminating the Jewish population of Europe. Starting in the early 30s with the Aryan Codes they began a widespread and society wide campaign of discrimination and segregation of the Jewish population leading ultimately up to Krystalnatcht. Leaked document fuels concern Israel plans to push Palestinians from Gaza into Egypt----- Israeli calls for Gaza’s ethnic cleansing are only getting louder----- Dehumanization, Apartheid, then Ethnic cleansing and Genocide. That's the path these types of tragic events usually take and Israel is currently on it. If you want to take into account, Israel's apartheid in the West Bank, and blockade of Gaza prior to October 2023, be my guest. Sept. 2023 - A former Mossad chief says Israel is enforcing an apartheid system in the West BankEven some Jewish scholars have compared Gaza to a 'concentration camp' prior to October 2023 fwiw. As for Palestinians who live in Israel proper, they don't have the same Rights as Jewish Israelis. Did every single German know the full extent of it? No, but a larger segment of that population either fully understood or had an idea of what was happening than they ever admitted. Based on the NY Times article you shared in the other thread about the rise in genocidal rhetoric in Israel, I think we can agree that a significant portion of Israeli citizens support the destruction of Gaza and collective punishment of Gazans. Also, while the view of ethnically cleansing Gaza was somewhat on the fringes prior to October 7th, it wasn't difficult to find average Israeli citizens who supported the removal the Palestinians years prior as the video clip below from six years ago showed. While I understand that 'genocidal intent' is difficult to prove in most cases the evidence that at a minimum, the evidence of an agenda of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and eventually the West Bank), is overwhelming.
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Post by soulflower on Jan 25, 2024 12:28:22 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Jan 26, 2024 7:39:43 GMT -5
The ICJ has so far ruled that South Africa’s case against Israeli is NOT “meritless”. The case will not be thrown out
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Post by soulflower on Jan 26, 2024 8:12:59 GMT -5
The ICJ rules that South Africa’s allegations of genocide in Gaza are plausible but stops short of calling for a ceasefire (which many were hoping for)
War criminal Netanyahu’s response was predictable
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Post by soulflower on Jan 26, 2024 8:57:25 GMT -5
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 26, 2024 12:30:29 GMT -5
Strikes me as kind of a mixed bag ruling for South Africa
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Post by soulflower on Jan 26, 2024 12:54:03 GMT -5
Strikes me as kind of a mixed bag ruling for South Africa The court ruled in favor of South Africa against Israel. Israel argued that the charges had no merit and asked for the case to be dropped. The court disagreed with Israel. The US media is focusing on the lack of a demand for a ceasefire but as noted by South Africa’s foreign minister, it’s impossible for Israel to meet the demands of the court without a ceasefire. Genocide cases typically take years to investigate. The objective of these hearings were to determine if its “plausible” that genocidal acts are happening and the court ruled that it is…
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 26, 2024 13:28:08 GMT -5
The court also called for the immediate and unconditional release of hostages Hamas took from Israel but nobody wants to talk about that
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Post by soulflower on Jan 26, 2024 13:37:03 GMT -5
The court also called for the immediate and unconditional release of hostages Hamas took from Israel but nobody wants to talk about that I assume that a ceasefire means both sides stop shooting at each other and both sides agree to release hostages/detainees. The only party that seems unconcerned about the Israeli hostages is the Israeli government…
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 26, 2024 13:41:22 GMT -5
The court also called for the immediate and unconditional release of hostages Hamas took from Israel but nobody wants to talk about that I assume that a ceasefire means both sides stop shooting at each other and both sides agree to release hostages/detainees. The only party that seems unconcerned about the Israeli hostages is the Israeli government… The court didn't call for a ceasefire. The court did call for Hamas to release the hostages immediately and without conditions. Interestingly, in 2022 the same court called on Russia to immediately halt its invasion of Ukraine.
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Post by soulflower on Jan 26, 2024 14:37:51 GMT -5
I assume that a ceasefire means both sides stop shooting at each other and both sides agree to release hostages/detainees. The only party that seems unconcerned about the Israeli hostages is the Israeli government… The court didn't call for a ceasefire. The court did call for Hamas to release the hostages immediately and without conditions. Interestingly, in 2022 the same court called on Russia to immediately halt its invasion of Ukraine. Way to spin the court's decision! You could do John Kirby's job. Apparently, Biden's State Department has no lawyers now. Either that, or the claim that the case was "meritless" was a political talking point, not a legal opinion. I'll wait patiently for the Biden admin officials and media personalities who said South Africa's case "had no merit" to apologize. The court ruled that the genocide allegations are "plausible" and are allowing the investigation to proceed. Israel is required to save (and not destroy evidence) and they must report back to the court in a month.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 26, 2024 15:15:28 GMT -5
The court didn't call for a ceasefire. The court did call for Hamas to release the hostages immediately and without conditions. Interestingly, in 2022 the same court called on Russia to immediately halt its invasion of Ukraine. Way to spin the court's decision! You could do John Kirby's job. Way to bend over backwards in an effort to avoid acknowledging a basic matter of fact
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 27, 2024 0:23:07 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Jan 27, 2024 7:27:10 GMT -5
If Iran was killing 200 Israeli civilians every day (mostly women and children) and most Israelis were at risk of famine, I doubt that Joy would be posting “excuse” articles in defense of the Iranians. There is no excuse for what Israel is doing. No matter how evil Hamas is, it doesn’t justify collective punishment of the civilian population of Gaza.
To be clear, what’s happening in Gaza isn’t “war”, it’s Israel punishing people that they’ve kept blockaded and caged for 17 years.
Why do some Liberals defend Israel’s indefensible actions? I don’t know.
The ICJ decision is clear. Israel is plausibly committing genocidal acts. Biden should cut funding to Israel until there’s a ceasefire.
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Post by WKDWZD on Jan 27, 2024 7:50:22 GMT -5
If Iran was killing 200 Israeli civilians every day (mostly women and children) and most Israelis were at risk of famine, I doubt that Joy would be posting “excuse” articles in defense of the Iranians. There is no excuse for what Israel is doing. No matter how evil Hamas is, it doesn’t justify collective punishment of the civilian population of Gaza. To be clear, what’s happening in Gaza isn’t “war”, it’s Israel punishing people that they’ve kept blockaded and caged for 17 years. Why do some Liberals defend Israel’s indefensible actions? I don’t know. The ICJ decision is clear. Israel is plausibly committing genocidal acts. Biden should cut funding to Israel until there’s a ceasefire. If that were to happen, then the big end of the Israeli junkyard dog (not the waggy bit), would bite the Iranian head off, and hello WW3.
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Post by soulflower on Jan 28, 2024 11:22:33 GMT -5
A day after the ICJ's decision, the US and several other countries decided to cut funding to the UN aid agency in Gaza in the midst of a major humanitarian crisis based on unverified allegations made by Israel.
Israel's leaders have long wanted the UN out of Gaza as the clip below shows. Given that Israel used bogus evidence to justify raiding hospitals in Gaza, their claims about UN aid workers shouldn't go without scrutiny. But even if there's merit to the allegation, the UN agency (13,000 employees) shouldn't be defunded based on the actions of 12 individuals. Especially when over a million Gazans are displaced and starving.
Over 150 UN workers in Gaza have been killed by Israel since October.
The colonized are being punished for indicting a colonizer state.
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Post by WKDWZD on Jan 28, 2024 12:11:43 GMT -5
UN urges reversal of funding pause for Palestinian agency, promises staff accountability
"DOHA/GENEVA, Jan 28 (Reuters) - U.N. officials urged countries to reconsider a pause in funding for the U.N. agency for Palestinians on Sunday, vowing that any staff found to be involved in Hamas' attack on Israel would be punished and warning that aid for some two million people in Gaza was at stake. At least nine countries, including top donors the U.S. and Germany, have paused funding for the U.N. refugee agency for Palestinians (UNRWA) after allegations by Israel that a dozen of its 13,000 staff in Gaza were involved in the Oct. 7 rampage."
At least nine countries have paused aid to UNRWA, during the middle off an ongoing genocide because 12 UNRWA staff are accused of involvement in the October 7th attack? Shamefull I am ashamed of my country's part in this. Presumably the 12 workers are known, arrest them change them and try them.
It's as if there is a general acceptance of Israel's genocide. What does Israel have on these nine countries to cause them to act in such a way, while millions of Palestinians are starving everyday?
To those nine countries please see some common sense before it's too late. None of you, and particularly the UK, are acting in my name.
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Post by soulflower on Jan 31, 2024 21:13:13 GMT -5
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