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Post by Ranger John on Apr 29, 2024 11:47:58 GMT -5
First, if I were planning a protest and I wanted it to be peaceful and respected, I would begin with learning and following the polices established for protests, whether public or private land. Filling out proper paperwork and getting required permits. Then I would follow those policies established, doing otherwise leads to anger and possible law enforcement involvement. Otherwise, your peaceful protest will likely become contentious. These may not be violent (yet) but they are not peaceful because they are disruptive and antagonistic. We agree that the demonstrations are non-violent at least. And during the Civil Rights movement, activists frequently violated local laws on segregation in order to advance their cause (ie Rosa Parks). Sometimes violating the rules or laws is the point. These demonstrations wouldn't be a problem for most if they were protesting against Hamas, Russia, or Iran. A lot of folks are just upset that they are protesting against Israel. People setting up tent cities and disrupting college campuses are a problem regardless of their cause.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 29, 2024 11:49:20 GMT -5
This is a fantastic question for anyone trying to figure out whether or not to spend six figures on an education. Whatever this protest is, it won't help anyone launch a career. And ruining the experience for the students who do not want to be involved. Imagine preparing to go see your child graduate and then you can't because of a "peaceful protest" on campus. Well that's just it. If it truly was a "peaceful protest" graduation events wouldn't be cancelled.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 29, 2024 11:49:32 GMT -5
See below from a Jewish-American news outlet: Daniel Lefkowitz, a professor of language and culture in the Middle East at the University of Virginia who lived in Israel for several years in the early 2000s, hypothesized that, for most Palestinians, the word brings up memories of the First Intifada, a largely non-violent Palestinian protest largely involving work stoppages, boycotts and demonstrations. Some Palestinians also attacked Israelis, mostly with small weapons such as rocks or Molotov cocktails, and on some occasions with firearms or grenades.
“The intifada, the shaking off, was a metaphor of effective claiming of a voice, presenting a situation to the world’s audience, but not engaging in the spectacular violence of the PLO, like plane hijacking,” he said. “So that was seen as a very progressive movement.”
“It was the David-Goliath representation — stones against machine guns,” he added.
But for Israelis, and many Jews, the word brings up memories, instead, of the Second Intifada, a far bloodier Palestinian uprising characterized by suicide bombings on buses and at cafés that killed about 1,000 Israeli civilians.
forward.com/culture/573654/intifada-arabic-israeli-hamas-war-meaning-linguistics/This debate reminds me of the "Black Lives Matter" vs "All Lives Matter" stuff. Phrases can mean different things to different people. Yeah... like "widespread violence" can mean the same as "mostly peaceful." Occupation of other people's land is violent
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Post by cowboyz on Apr 29, 2024 11:53:34 GMT -5
And ruining the experience for the students who do not want to be involved. Imagine preparing to go see your child graduate and then you can't because of a "peaceful protest" on campus. Well that's just it. If it truly was a "peaceful protest" graduation events wouldn't be cancelled. Exactly!
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 29, 2024 11:54:37 GMT -5
Yeah... like "widespread violence" can mean the same as "mostly peaceful." Occupation of other people's land is violent That's what we've all been saying. Occupying Columbia University's land is violent. From Amsterdam Ave to Broadway Columbia University will be Free!
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Post by cowboyz on Apr 29, 2024 11:55:59 GMT -5
Yeah... like "widespread violence" can mean the same as "mostly peaceful." Occupation of other people's land is violent Like tent encampments?
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Post by soulflower on Apr 29, 2024 12:10:29 GMT -5
Well that's just it. If it truly was a "peaceful protest" graduation events wouldn't be cancelled. Exactly! USC cancelled their commencement due to the controversy over a Muslim pro-Palestine valedictorian's speech. Not sure if any other schools have cancelled commencements. "The cancellation also follows controversy surrounding the university’s decision to prevent its pro-Palestine valedictorian from speaking during the commencement ceremony."
www.thecut.com/article/usc-graduation-canceled-protests-israel-gaza.html
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Post by soulflower on Apr 29, 2024 12:12:06 GMT -5
Occupation of other people's land is violent Like tent encampments? Yes but without the violence. I'm glad you noticed the irony. That's sort of the point.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 29, 2024 12:12:54 GMT -5
Occupation of other people's land is violent That's what we've all been saying. Occupying Columbia University's land is violent. From Amsterdam Ave to Broadway Columbia University will be Free! Let me know when these students start killing people and destroying homes like Israeli settlers do in the West Bank.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 29, 2024 12:23:53 GMT -5
That's what we've all been saying. Occupying Columbia University's land is violent. From Amsterdam Ave to Broadway Columbia University will be Free! Let me know when these students start killing people and destroying homes like Israeli settlers do in the West Bank. Oh, this nonsense again. Yes, the Israelis have treated the Palestinians poorly. I mean, not decapitating infants poorly, buy poorly. But this is a cycle of violence that goes back decades to a time when the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was Hitler's man in that part of the world and wanted to export the Holocaust to Israel. And really, if you wanted to be honest with yourself, it goes back to the founding of Islam and the direction to kill the Jews wherever you find them. So whatever fighting is going on between Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank, both sides are giving as good as they're getting and it started with the Muslims. Just like every other Israeli-Muslim entity fight. Maybe the Muslim groups should stop picking these fights if they don't want to get their butts kicked.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 29, 2024 12:35:38 GMT -5
Let me know when these students start killing people and destroying homes like Israeli settlers do in the West Bank. Oh, this nonsense again. Yes, the Israelis have treated the Palestinians poorly.You should've have stopped there. The rest of your response was your typical rationalizing of colonization and apartheid.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 29, 2024 12:46:53 GMT -5
Oh, this nonsense again. Yes, the Israelis have treated the Palestinians poorly.You should've have stopped there. The rest of your response was your typical rationalizing of colonization and apartheid. Pointing out the atrocities the Palestinians committed on October 7 is "rationalization for apartheid?" Just a reminder: the Palestinians, not the Israelis, forced all the Jews living in Gaza to leave. THAT is what a real apartheid state does. Also, the Jews are named for this part of the world (Judea) and have been living there for several thousand years. They have a stronger claim to this part of the world than almost every other culture on the planet. This calling them "colonizers" shtick is as stupid as it is hilarious. You need to stop using "apartheid" and "colonizer" here. You don't know what those words mean, and because of that it should be assumed you're using them as a slur.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 29, 2024 13:06:37 GMT -5
You should've have stopped there. The rest of your response was your typical rationalizing of colonization and apartheid. Also, the Jews are named for this part of the world (Judea) and have been living there for several thousand years. They have a stronger claim to this part of the world than almost every other culture on the planet. This calling them "colonizers" shtick is as stupid as it is hilarious. Nonsense. The people who lived in the Levant for the last several thousand years (and never left) call themselves "Palestinians" or "Arabs" today. DNA research proves that the Palestinians have been there for centuries and share genetic heritage with Jewish populations. Times of Israel: Most Palestinians Are Descendants Of Jews Jews peacefully co-existed with Muslims and Christians in Gaza until the 1940s. The 19th century ideology of Zionism is what has led to the apartheid and separation along religious and ethnic lines. You need to stop using "apartheid" and "colonizer" here. You don't know what those words mean, and because of that it should be assumed you're using them as a slur. "Colonizer" isn't a slur. "Apartheid" isn't a slur. Both words have definitions. Look up the meanings and let me know how I've used them inappropriately. Secondly, the people from Western countries who settled British Palestine in the early-20th century referred to themselves as such. www.nytimes.com/1899/06/20/archives/conference-of-zionists-elect-delegates-at-their-meeting-in.html(I wasn't aware until recently that the above meeting took place in Baltimore in 1899)
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Post by soulflower on Apr 29, 2024 13:15:41 GMT -5
Sensible comments from a Philosophy professor
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 29, 2024 13:40:51 GMT -5
Also, the Jews are named for this part of the world (Judea) and have been living there for several thousand years. They have a stronger claim to this part of the world than almost every other culture on the planet. This calling them "colonizers" shtick is as stupid as it is hilarious. Nonsense. The people who lived in the Levant for the last several thousand years (and never left) call themselves "Palestinians" or "Arabs" today. DNA research proves that the Palestinians have been there for centuries and share genetic heritage with Jewish populations. Times of Israel: Most Palestinians Are Descendants Of Jews Jews peacefully co-existed with Muslims and Christians in Gaza until the 1940s. The 19th century ideology of Zionism is what has led to the apartheid and separation along religious and ethnic lines. You need to stop using "apartheid" and "colonizer" here. You don't know what those words mean, and because of that it should be assumed you're using them as a slur. "Colonizer" isn't a slur. "Apartheid" isn't a slur. Both words have definitions. Look up the meanings and let me know how I've used them inappropriately. Secondly, the people from Western countries who settled British Palestine in the early-20th century referred to themselves as such. www.nytimes.com/1899/06/20/archives/conference-of-zionists-elect-delegates-at-their-meeting-in.html(I wasn't aware until recently that the above meeting took place in Baltimore in 1899) I know what those words mean, SF. They describe the Palestinians who throw the Jews off the land the Palestinians control. Not the Israelis who have a pluralistic society where Arabs have the same rights as Jewish citizens. DNA doesn't address the "who was here 3,000 years ago" question. It only addresses who's here now. You need archeology to figure out who was somewhere 3,000 years ago. Where are the 3,000 year old Muslim/Arab archeological sites in Israel? The Jewish sites are well documented.
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Post by cowboyz on Apr 29, 2024 13:40:53 GMT -5
Yes but without the violence. I'm glad you noticed the irony. That's sort of the point. SF, you need to see the irony. You stated that occupation was violent, while calling the protest non violent. But there is occupation... the tent encampments. So, is this violent or non violent? I believe a few pages back you also referred to it as being violent when a reporter (guy with camera) was yanked out of the crowd by cops. So, is this violent or non violent?
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Post by cowboyz on Apr 29, 2024 13:47:18 GMT -5
USC cancelled their commencement due to the controversy over a Muslim pro-Palestine valedictorian's speech. Not sure if any other schools have cancelled commencements. "The cancellation also follows controversy surrounding the university’s decision to prevent its pro-Palestine valedictorian from speaking during the commencement ceremony."
www.thecut.com/article/usc-graduation-canceled-protests-israel-gaza.html From you quote: "The cancellation also follows controversy surrounding..." You conveniently left out the very first sentence in the article. So yeah.... graduations are being cancelled.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 29, 2024 13:57:30 GMT -5
Yes but without the violence. I'm glad you noticed the irony. That's sort of the point. SF, you need to see the irony. You stated that occupation was violent, while calling the protest non violent. But there is occupation... the tent encampments. Israel's occupation of Palestinian land is enforced by armed settlers and the Israeli military. So the equivalence ends there, at weapons and actual violence. Violence is typically used to enforce illegal theft of other people's land. These activists aren't armed and they're not being violent. Update: The State Troopers are back at UT-Austin today
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Post by soulflower on Apr 29, 2024 13:59:22 GMT -5
USC cancelled their commencement due to the controversy over a Muslim pro-Palestine valedictorian's speech. Not sure if any other schools have cancelled commencements. "The cancellation also follows controversy surrounding the university’s decision to prevent its pro-Palestine valedictorian from speaking during the commencement ceremony."
www.thecut.com/article/usc-graduation-canceled-protests-israel-gaza.htmlFrom you quote: "The cancellation also follows controversy surrounding..." You conveniently left out the very first sentence in the article. So yeah.... graduations are being cancelled. The controversy over the Muslim valedictorian's cancelled speech began before the recent protests, but yes, the protests probably gave USC an excuse to cancel the commencement after they had already been getting negative national Press for not allowing the valedictorian to give her speech.
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Post by cowboyz on Apr 29, 2024 14:01:55 GMT -5
From you quote: "The cancellation also follows controversy surrounding..." You conveniently left out the very first sentence in the article. So yeah.... graduations are being cancelled. The controversy over the Muslim valedictorian's cancelled speech began before the recent protests, but yes, the protests probably gave USC an excuse to cancel the commencement after they had already been getting negative national Press for not allowing the valedictorian to give her speech. See.... consequences for everyone, not even those involved. Very sad.
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Post by cowboyz on Apr 29, 2024 14:02:52 GMT -5
SF, you need to see the irony. You stated that occupation was violent, while calling the protest non violent. But there is occupation... the tent encampments. Israel's occupation of Palestinian land is enforced by armed settlers and the Israeli military. So the equivalence ends there, at weapons and actual violence. Violence is typically used to enforce illegal theft of other people's land. These activists aren't armed and they're not being violent. Update: The State Troopers are back at UT-Austin today More arrests are coming, I assume. I hope they don't have to use force.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 29, 2024 14:20:14 GMT -5
The controversy over the Muslim valedictorian's cancelled speech began before the recent protests, but yes, the protests probably gave USC an excuse to cancel the commencement after they had already been getting negative national Press for not allowing the valedictorian to give her speech. See.... consequences for everyone, not even those involved. Very sad. I really can't imagine paying whatever Columbia's tuition is only to be forced to walk through a tent city full of harpies demanding a "global intefada." It's disturbing enough for any non-Hamas supporter. It must be terrible for Jews.
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Post by cowboyz on Apr 29, 2024 14:31:20 GMT -5
See.... consequences for everyone, not even those involved. Very sad. I really can't imagine paying whatever Columbia's tuition is only to be forced to walk through a tent city full of harpies demanding a "global intefada." It's disturbing enough for any non-Hamas supporter. It must be terrible for Jews. Don't forget about the huge cloud of smoke they must have to endure as well. LOL...
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Post by soulflower on Apr 29, 2024 14:33:20 GMT -5
See.... consequences for everyone, not even those involved. Very sad. I really can't imagine paying whatever Columbia's tuition is only to be forced to walk through a tent city full of harpies demanding a "global intefada." It's disturbing enough for any non-Hamas supporter. It must be terrible for Jews. We’re Jewish students at Columbia arrested for protesting Israel’s war"We chose to be arrested in the movement for Palestinian liberation because we are inspired by our Jewish ancestors who fought for freedom 4,000 years ago. When the police entered our encampment, we locked arms and sang civil rights era songs that many of our more recent ancestors recited in the 1960s. We belong to the legacy of progressive Jewish activism that has worked across race, class and religious lines to transform our communities.
The beautiful encampment that has formed at Columbia could not be more different from its portrayal in the media. When American Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel was asked if he had prayed during the civil rights protests, he replied, “I prayed with my feet.” We, too, pray with our feet, each time we enter the encampment. Our days are filled with interfaith prayer, song, dance and learning.
To enter, students must affirm community agreements that state we will not cross one another’s physical boundaries, desecrate the space we have borrowed or engage with counter-protestors who wish us harm. A section written by “Jafra,” our Palestinian student contingent named after a love song, elevates values like humility, kindness and respect. Even NYPD Chief John Chell agrees that our camp was entirely peaceful, as it continues to be in our absence now that we have been suspended. Columbia University violated its written rules to demand our arrests, which is forbidden if we do not present a clear and present danger.
Instead of following the law, our school has borrowed the Anti-Defamation League’s playbook, which conflates anti-Zionism with antisemitism. Bad actors are elevating disinformation. And political opportunists like Rep. Elise Stefanik (R-N.Y.) use spurious House hearings to call Jewish protestors “antisemites.” Her lies and the lies of online trolls have now traveled as far as the White House, where President Biden is smearing protestors too."-------- Jewish Americans don't want their religion or identity to be used to protect Israel from criticism. Columbia professor explains in the Twitter thread below how the encampment is NOT disruptive:
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 29, 2024 16:14:01 GMT -5
I really can't imagine paying whatever Columbia's tuition is only to be forced to walk through a tent city full of harpies demanding a "global intefada." It's disturbing enough for any non-Hamas supporter. It must be terrible for Jews. We’re Jewish students at Columbia arrested for protesting Israel’s war"We chose to be arrested in the movement for Palestinian liberation because we are inspired by our Jewish ancestors who fought for freedom 4,000 years ago. When the police entered our encampment, we locked arms and sang civil rights era songs that many of our more recent ancestors recited in the 1960s. We belong to the legacy of progressive Jewish activism that has worked across race, class and religious lines to transform our communities.
The beautiful encampment that has formed at Columbia could not be more different from its portrayal in the media. When American Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel was asked if he had prayed during the civil rights protests, he replied, “I prayed with my feet.” We, too, pray with our feet, each time we enter the encampment. Our days are filled with interfaith prayer, song, dance and learning.
To enter, students must affirm community agreements that state we will not cross one another’s physical boundaries, desecrate the space we have borrowed or engage with counter-protestors who wish us harm. A section written by “Jafra,” our Palestinian student contingent named after a love song, elevates values like humility, kindness and respect. Even NYPD Chief John Chell agrees that our camp was entirely peaceful, as it continues to be in our absence now that we have been suspended. Columbia University violated its written rules to demand our arrests, which is forbidden if we do not present a clear and present danger.
Instead of following the law, our school has borrowed the Anti-Defamation League’s playbook, which conflates anti-Zionism with antisemitism. Bad actors are elevating disinformation. And political opportunists like Rep. Elise Stefanik (R-N.Y.) use spurious House hearings to call Jewish protestors “antisemites.” Her lies and the lies of online trolls have now traveled as far as the White House, where President Biden is smearing protestors too."-------- Jewish Americans don't want their religion or identity to be used to protect Israel from criticism. Columbia professor explains in the Twitter thread below how the encampment is NOT disruptive: Nice anecdotes. Maybe see what Bob Kraft thinks of this.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 29, 2024 16:23:05 GMT -5
Nice anecdotes. Maybe see what Bob Kraft thinks of this. Has Kraft visited these schools and met with the activists? If the answer is No, who cares what he thinks? Not interested in what people who aren't interested in listening to the students themselves think. Standoff at UT is still going btw
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 29, 2024 16:25:47 GMT -5
Nice anecdotes. Maybe see what Bob Kraft thinks of this. Has Kraft visited these schools and met with the activists? If the answer is No, who cares what he thinks? Not interested in what people who aren't interested in listening to the students themselves think. Standoff at UT is still going btw Have these students visited Gaza and southern Israel? If the answer is no, who cares what they think? See how that works?
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Post by soulflower on Apr 29, 2024 16:41:48 GMT -5
Has Kraft visited these schools and met with the activists? If the answer is No, who cares what he thinks? Not interested in what people who aren't interested in listening to the students themselves think. Standoff at UT is still going btw Have these students visited Gaza and southern Israel? If the answer is no, who cares what they think? See how that works? Yes in some cases. And some have family members who have been killed since October. FYI There are many Americans with relatives in Gaza or Israel. It's not as distant as you make it seem. And of course, our tax dollars are funding the war so a lot of people have a problem with that.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 29, 2024 17:00:08 GMT -5
Have these students visited Gaza and southern Israel? If the answer is no, who cares what they think? See how that works? Yes in some cases. And some have family members who have been killed since October. FYI There are many Americans with relatives in Gaza or Israel. It's not as distant as you make it seem. And of course, our tax dollars are funding the war so a lot of people have a problem with that. Great. Anyone who hasn't been there since October should leave the protest because like Bob Kraft, their opinions don't matter. And if they're not paying taxes, because they're students, they don't get to have an opinion on what other people's tax dollars are funding either.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 29, 2024 17:55:54 GMT -5
Huge group of Students are returning to UT after another clash with the police
Not sure what Gov Abbott hopes to achieve. He’s causing more harm to the safety of the students by sending the police than if he had just let them protest until the energy fizzled out. College is almost done for the year. Most of these students will be going home soon.
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