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Post by soulflower on Aug 4, 2023 10:30:45 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Aug 5, 2023 18:14:31 GMT -5
Former diplomat Aaron David Miller:
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Post by kandace on Aug 5, 2023 19:48:24 GMT -5
This war has been going on for basically 18 months. The US Civil War lasted for four years and the American Revolution dragged on for seven years. It's silly to expect this war to be resolved in 18 months. Allowing Putin to crush the Ukraine will lead to war spreading into Eastern Europe as Russia continues its plan to reconstruct the Iron Curtain. Best to stop Russia now before millions of war refugees flood into Western Europe.
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Post by soulflower on Aug 6, 2023 7:25:40 GMT -5
Common view expressed among Republican voters
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Post by soulflower on Aug 6, 2023 19:05:24 GMT -5
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Post by Rael on Aug 6, 2023 19:18:42 GMT -5
This war has been going on for basically 18 months. The US Civil War lasted for four years and the American Revolution dragged on for seven years. It's silly to expect this war to be resolved in 18 months. Allowing Putin to crush the Ukraine will lead to war spreading into Eastern Europe as Russia continues its plan to reconstruct the Iron Curtain. Best to stop Russia now before millions of war refugees flood into Western Europe. We don't often see eye to eye. It is refreshing when we do. Respect either way.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Aug 6, 2023 19:21:24 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Aug 6, 2023 20:49:09 GMT -5
Other polls show closer to a 50-50 split or 40-20-40 split.
Either way you spin it, there’s no denying that support for the war is waning on our side of the pond.
Biden hasn’t sold Americans on supporting Ukraine “as long as it takes”.
The results of this poll were predictable.
Americans have short attention spans on our own wars let alone wars that don’t directly involve the US. And it’s hard to justify sending another country $100 billion in a year more than once.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Aug 6, 2023 22:30:11 GMT -5
Despite the fervent hopes of the Capitulation Caucus (tm) there's a bi-partisan majority in both houses of Congress for additional funding for Ukraine in FY 2024. Not $100 billion but somewhere between $20-$60 billion. Look for a supplemental appropriations bill or an amendment possibly originating in the Senate in September/October. The key will be whether or not McCarthy can get the rules committee dominated by the MAGA cult to allow it onto the House floor.
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Post by soulflower on Aug 7, 2023 5:40:40 GMT -5
Despite the fervent hopes of the Capitulation Caucus (tm) there's a bi-partisan majority in both houses of Congress for additional funding for Ukraine in FY 2024. Not $100 billion but somewhere between $20-$60 billion. Look for a supplemental appropriations bill or an amendment possibly originating in the Senate in September/October. The key will be whether or not McCarthy can get the rules committee dominated by the MAGA cult to allow it onto the House floor. It can’t be “capitulation” if the US is not at war. It’s not our war and the reality is, Ukraine isn’t a top priority for most Americans. I know that Ds and Rs are polarized on the issue but the tie breaker, Independents like me, think it’s time to change course…
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Post by ivanbalt on Aug 7, 2023 5:53:24 GMT -5
Common view expressed among Republican voters Dude is so desperate to appeal to a base that will never vote for him.
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Post by pickle20 on Aug 7, 2023 7:59:17 GMT -5
I am in favor of smarter aid for Ukraine.
Meaning, what helps them advance their goals at the least cost to us.
Seems like we've handed them a blank check to this point.
But I still support Ukraine and fighting Putin's attempts to put the Soviet Union back together before he croaks.
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Post by pickle20 on Aug 7, 2023 8:00:54 GMT -5
If we had the weak ass mentality as a country back during the Cold War we would have never landed on the moon and the Soviet Union would have built the A-bomb long before us.
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Post by soulflower on Aug 7, 2023 8:12:11 GMT -5
If we had the weak ass mentality as a country back during the Cold War we would have never landed on the moon and the Soviet Union would have built the A-bomb long before us. The Cold War was about ideology and capitalism. Easy to understand and rally around. Today, Dems view Russia as our top enemy and Repubs view China as our top enemy. So we can’t even agree as a country who our main enemy is or what our geopolitical priorities should be. But in terms of Ukraine specifically, most Americans couldn’t find the country on a map a few years ago and the reality is, this war isn’t vital to our national security. If all our aid to Ukraine is about is “killing Russians” at a great cost in human lives to Ukrainians, that doesn’t seem like a good use of our money and scarce military resources. Russia isn’t a major threat to the US. At worst, like China, they’re an obstacle to our dominance of Africa and the Middle East.
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Post by pickle20 on Aug 7, 2023 8:24:05 GMT -5
If we had the weak ass mentality as a country back during the Cold War we would have never landed on the moon and the Soviet Union would have built the A-bomb long before us. The Cold War was about ideology and capitalism. Easy to understand and rally around. Today, Dems view Russia as our top enemy and Repubs view China as our top enemy. So we can’t even agree as a country who our main enemy is or what our geopolitical priorities should be. But in terms of Ukraine specifically, most Americans couldn’t find the country on a map a few years ago and the reality is, this war isn’t vital to our national security. If all our aid to Ukraine is about is “killing Russians” at a great cost in human lives to Ukrainians, that doesn’t seem like a good use of our money and scarce military resources. Russia isn’t a major threat to the US. At worst, like China, they’re an obstacle to our dominance of Africa and the Middle East. I don't view either country as an enemy or an ally. They're just countries full of people who like us are trying to make it through another week and don't care or aren't greatly impacted by what their governments do. I do however believe we shouldn't allow either country to run roughshod over another country, especially if the consequences could affect us down the road.
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Post by soulflower on Aug 7, 2023 9:16:25 GMT -5
The Cold War was about ideology and capitalism. Easy to understand and rally around. Today, Dems view Russia as our top enemy and Repubs view China as our top enemy. So we can’t even agree as a country who our main enemy is or what our geopolitical priorities should be. But in terms of Ukraine specifically, most Americans couldn’t find the country on a map a few years ago and the reality is, this war isn’t vital to our national security. If all our aid to Ukraine is about is “killing Russians” at a great cost in human lives to Ukrainians, that doesn’t seem like a good use of our money and scarce military resources. Russia isn’t a major threat to the US. At worst, like China, they’re an obstacle to our dominance of Africa and the Middle East. I don't view either country as an enemy or an ally. They're just countries full of people who like us are trying to make it through another week and don't care or aren't greatly impacted by what their governments do. I do however believe we shouldn't allow either country to run roughshod over another country, especially if the consequences could affect us down the road. Believe it or not, I don't oppose aid to Ukraine. I just think our strategy should be focused on Ukraine's defense of the territory they still control and starting a peace process rather than attempting to help Ukraine recapture all territory that has been lost to Russia. The Biden administration has rejected peace talks on multiple occasions and pressured Ukraine to do the current counteroffensive despite the fact that it had a low probability of success (and is so far failing). For both sides in the war, offensive operations have been costiler and more difficult than defending territory. It's why Russia is unlikely to be able to capture much more territory in Ukraine than they already control and it's why Ukraine's ground offensive isn't having much success. If Ukraine is unable to decisively defeat Russia, the best we can do is enable Ukraine to stop the Russians from advancing further west into their country. I think Biden could benefit politically from clarifying what our objectives are in this war. Saying we'll support Ukraine "as long as it takes" sounds too much like a commitment to another open-ended "endless war". Something that has declined in popularity among voters after Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Post by Jimmy Jazz on Aug 7, 2023 9:25:11 GMT -5
I’m not sure how I would answer the poll question. I’m ok with aid to Ukraine but I would like to see the US/NATO make a much bigger diplomatic effort toward peace. The war should end this winter and everyone needs to come to terms with the new reality.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Aug 7, 2023 9:45:38 GMT -5
Despite the fervent hopes of the Capitulation Caucus (tm) there's a bi-partisan majority in both houses of Congress for additional funding for Ukraine in FY 2024. Not $100 billion but somewhere between $20-$60 billion. Look for a supplemental appropriations bill or an amendment possibly originating in the Senate in September/October. The key will be whether or not McCarthy can get the rules committee dominated by the MAGA cult to allow it onto the House floor. It can’t be “capitulation” if the US is not at war. It’s not our war and the reality is, Ukraine isn’t a top priority for most Americans. I know that Ds and Rs are polarized on the issue but the tie breaker, Independents like me, think it’s time to change course… Actually, 58% of independents support continued funding for Ukraine. See, I can cherry pick polls too
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Post by stevez51 on Aug 7, 2023 10:11:06 GMT -5
I don't view either country as an enemy or an ally. They're just countries full of people who like us are trying to make it through another week and don't care or aren't greatly impacted by what their governments do. I do however believe we shouldn't allow either country to run roughshod over another country, especially if the consequences could affect us down the road.Believe it or not, I don't oppose aid to Ukraine. I just think our strategy should be focused on Ukraine's defense of the territory they still control and starting a peace process rather than attempting to help Ukraine recapture all territory that has been lost to Russia. The Biden administration has rejected peace talks on multiple occasions and pressured Ukraine to do the current counteroffensive despite the fact that it had a low probability of success (and is so far failing). For both sides in the war, offensive operations have been costiler and more difficult than defending territory. It's why Russia is unlikely to be able to capture much more territory in Ukraine than they already control and it's why Ukraine's ground offensive isn't having much success. If Ukraine is unable to decisively defeat Russia, the best we can do is enable Ukraine to stop the Russians from advancing further west into their country. I think Biden could benefit politically from clarifying what our objectives are in this war. Saying we'll support Ukraine "as long as it takes" sounds too much like a commitment to another open-ended "endless war". Something that has declined in popularity among voters after Iraq and Afghanistan. Both sides are using old Russian war tactics so there is a stalemate
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Post by soulflower on Aug 7, 2023 10:23:59 GMT -5
It can’t be “capitulation” if the US is not at war. It’s not our war and the reality is, Ukraine isn’t a top priority for most Americans. I know that Ds and Rs are polarized on the issue but the tie breaker, Independents like me, think it’s time to change course… Actually, 58% of independents support continued funding for Ukraine. See, I can cherry pick polls too It's literally in the first paragraph of the article: Independents mostly say the US has done enough to help Ukraine (56%) and that they oppose additional funding (55%).But I myself am among the minority of indies who is okay with continued funding. By "change course", see my last response to Pickle for elaboration on what I mean.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Aug 7, 2023 11:09:52 GMT -5
Actually, 58% of independents support continued funding for Ukraine. See, I can cherry pick polls too It's literally in the first paragraph of the article: Independents mostly say the US has done enough to help Ukraine (56%) and that they oppose additional funding (55%). It's literally right there in black and white
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Post by soulflower on Aug 7, 2023 11:22:48 GMT -5
It's literally in the first paragraph of the article: Independents mostly say the US has done enough to help Ukraine (56%) and that they oppose additional funding (55%).It's literally right there in black and white Well you're referring to a different poll, not the CNN poll. You could've clarified that. Either way, support for open-ended aid to Ukraine has declined significantly since 2022. It's political malpractice to ignore the trends...
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Post by JoyinMudville on Aug 7, 2023 22:17:46 GMT -5
I’m not sure how I would answer the poll question. I’m ok with aid to Ukraine but I would like to see the US/NATO make a much bigger diplomatic effort toward peace. The war should end this winter and everyone needs to come to terms with the new reality. 1. I think everyone is kind of in a wait and see mode in terms of what happens on the battlefield between now and the mud season which hits in late October/November 2. While I wouldn’t overstate its importance it is worth noting that China and India as well as many countries constituting the ‘global south’ participated in the Saudi sponsored peace conference this weekend which gave Ukraine a chance to present its case, and its peace plan, to this audience. If I’m Putin, it is not great to see China there and it is hard not to think that China has finally figured out what side its bread is buttered on
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Post by soulflower on Aug 7, 2023 22:52:31 GMT -5
I’m not sure how I would answer the poll question. I’m ok with aid to Ukraine but I would like to see the US/NATO make a much bigger diplomatic effort toward peace. The war should end this winter and everyone needs to come to terms with the new reality. 1. I think everyone is kind of in a wait and see mode in terms of what happens on the battlefield between now and the mud season which hits in late October/November 2. While I wouldn’t overstate its importance it is worth noting that China and India as well as many countries constituting the ‘global south’ participated in the Saudi sponsored peace conference this weekend which gave Ukraine a chance to present its case, and its peace plan, to this audience. If I’m Putin, it is not great to see China there and it is hard not to think that China has finally figured out what side its bread is buttered on The Saudi thing was a photo-op at best. I wouldn’t read into it more than that. The countries couldn’t even agree on a statement. The upcoming BRICS summit in South Africa is the more important global south event to watch over they next few weeks. Putin isn’t expected to travel to South Africa. It will be interesting to see what if anything, India and China say about the war in Ukraine at the summit…
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Post by soulflower on Aug 8, 2023 10:05:40 GMT -5
Chris Christie's foreign policy vision for America is backward-looking and sounds like a washed up boxer talking about how great he was in his prime.
The world has changed. It's multipolar, not unipolar. Which means we have to change the ways we engage with other countries. Respect for our friends and adversaries costs us nothing.
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Post by kandace on Aug 8, 2023 11:08:31 GMT -5
Chris Christie's foreign policy vision for America is backward-looking and sounds like a washed up boxer talking about how great he was in his prime. The world has changed. It's multipolar, not unipolar. Which means we have to change the ways we engage with other countries. Respect for our friends and adversaries costs us nothing. America won't fight for Taiwan because it's not European. That's the sad truth. But America will fight for Poland. Anyone who's visited the Chicago area with its large Polish population knows that. And if Ukraine falls Poland is next.
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Post by pickle20 on Aug 8, 2023 12:02:19 GMT -5
Chris Christie's foreign policy vision for America is backward-looking and sounds like a washed up boxer talking about how great he was in his prime. The world has changed. It's multipolar, not unipolar. Which means we have to change the ways we engage with other countries. Respect for our friends and adversaries costs us nothing. America won't fight for Taiwan because it's not European. That's the sad truth. But America will fight for Poland. Anyone who's visited the Chicago area with its large Polish population knows that. And if Ukraine falls Poland is next. Then how did the US fight for Koreans and the Vietnamese? If the US has interests at stake they'll fight "for" anyone.
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Post by soulflower on Aug 8, 2023 12:46:04 GMT -5
Chris Christie's foreign policy vision for America is backward-looking and sounds like a washed up boxer talking about how great he was in his prime. The world has changed. It's multipolar, not unipolar. Which means we have to change the ways we engage with other countries. Respect for our friends and adversaries costs us nothing. America won't fight for Taiwan because it's not European. That's the sad truth. But America will fight for Poland. Anyone who's visited the Chicago area with its large Polish population knows that. And if Ukraine falls Poland is next. Short of an internal collapse Ukraine isn't going to fall and Russia wouldn't attack Poland because that's a declaration of war against the 30 countries of the NATO alliance. Russia vs Ukraine is like a family fued. Russians view Ukrainians differently than other eastern European countries.
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Post by soulflower on Aug 9, 2023 20:52:25 GMT -5
Tuberville is more right than wrong on this
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Post by rocketwolf on Aug 9, 2023 21:02:47 GMT -5
We need a "Chamberlain" to appease Putin like he did Hitler, that worked out so well.
"Peace in our time" always sounds so good to those that believe that Liberty doesn't have a cost.
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