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Post by Ranger John on Oct 8, 2023 19:30:58 GMT -5
Saw a video of a woman being dragged by her hair and bleeding profusely from her vagina. Nothing says freedom like rape and kidnapping innocent civilians. Sorry, these are sick mfers that need to be destroyed and eliminated. Agreed. These and those who support and celebrate this, should not be considered human beings. Human beings do not do this.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 8, 2023 20:10:31 GMT -5
It is becoming increasingly clear that Iran is deeply involved in this. So now we know where that $6 billion we sent them went. No hard evidence of Iran’s involvement so far If they were involved, what do you propose we do? Iran isn’t Iraq. Much more difficult and complex to have a direct conflict with Iran.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 8, 2023 20:14:26 GMT -5
“Pro-Palestine” doesn’t equate to “pro-Hamas”. Hamas exists because of Israel’s repression. Plus Israel secretly helped Hamas get started in the 1980s to counter the PLO. Blowback for bad policies sucks. The only answer to this Israeli problem is making Gaza part of Israel and more importantly opening the opportunity for any and all Gazans to become Israelis too. Ignoring the demographics makes a very close analogy to republicans ignoring the shifting the demographics in this country. Until two things can occupy the same space there is no other solution except to let the Gazans become Israelis too. That gives both sides an end point to work towards. Surely these wars and "lawn mowings" have a high price in all kinds of ways for everybody. I agree that Israel becoming a real pluralistic democracy could work and I support that. The problem is, demographics. Jews would be outnumbered by Arabs and it would no longer be a “Jewish State”. That’s the reason why giving full citizenship rights to Palestinians has been a non-starter.
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 8, 2023 20:20:41 GMT -5
It is becoming increasingly clear that Iran is deeply involved in this. So now we know where that $6 billion we sent them went. No hard evidence of Iran’s involvement so far If they were involved, what do you propose we do? Iran isn’t Iraq. Much more difficult and complex to have a direct conflict with Iran. www.politico.com/news/2023/10/07/iran-praises-hamas-attack-israel-middle-east-00120491And that's just it's involvement in the current war. Iran has been joined at the hip to Hamas since Hamas was formed. www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-is-palestinian-group-hamas-2023-10-07/The first thing we need to do is cut off whatever monies we agreed to send to Iran that hasn't already gone. Then we need to impeach Biden and round up everyone in the US government that supported sending them $6 billion and charge them with funding this attack. This, of course, is the reason no one in the Biden administration can "find" any direct link between Iran and Hamas all of a sudden. Even though everyone has known Hamas is Iran's puppet for decades.
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summer23
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Post by summer23 on Oct 8, 2023 20:34:10 GMT -5
U.S. sends aircraft carrier group to eastern Mediterranean in response to Hamas attack on Israel www.cbsnews.com/news/hamas-attack-israel-secretary-austin-american-aircraft-carrier-group-eastern-mediterranean/U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin announced Sunday that he has ordered American military ships, including an aircraft carrier and additional aircraft, to move closer to the eastern Mediterranean in response to Hamas' unprecedented, multi-front attack on Israel. Several U.S. citizens were among those killed in the attacks, a National Security Council spokesperson confirmed Sunday after Austin's announcement.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 8, 2023 20:45:48 GMT -5
No hard evidence of Iran’s involvement so far If they were involved, what do you propose we do? Iran isn’t Iraq. Much more difficult and complex to have a direct conflict with Iran. www.politico.com/news/2023/10/07/iran-praises-hamas-attack-israel-middle-east-00120491And that's just it's involvement in the current war. Iran has been joined at the hip to Hamas since Hamas was formed. www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-is-palestinian-group-hamas-2023-10-07/The first thing we need to do is cut off whatever monies we agreed to send to Iran that hasn't already gone. Then we need to impeach Biden and round up everyone in the US government that supported sending them $6 billion and charge them with funding this attack. This, of course, is the reason no one in the Biden administration can "find" any direct link between Iran and Hamas all of a sudden. Even though everyone has known Hamas is Iran's puppet for decades. Yeah and? Iran hates Israel and Israel hates Iran. They’re responding as I expect that they would. But as far as outside involvement goes, the Tell will be if Hezbollah gets directly involved. And no, launching a few rockets from Lebanon at Israel isn’t what I mean. That happens regularly. If there’s a ground war between Hezbollah and Israel again (the last one was in 2006), I’m certain that Iran would have to give Hezbollah their blessing. And it would strengthen the argument that Iran coordinated this whole thing. But for now, it’s just speculative.
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 8, 2023 20:50:29 GMT -5
Yeah and? Iran hates Israel and Israel hates Iran. They’re responding as I expect that they would. But as far as outside involvement goes, the Tell will be if Hezbollah gets directly involved. And no, launching a few rockets from Lebanon at Israel isn’t what I mean. That happens regularly. If there’s a ground war between Hezbollah and Israel again (the last one was in 2006), I’m certain that Iran would have to give Hezbollah their blessing. And it would strengthen the argument that Iran coordinated this whole thing. But for now, it’s just speculative. Just stop insulting everyone's intelligence. Hamas doesn't operate independently from Iran. Especially not on this scale. The Palestinians don't have the resources to do this without Iran.
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
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Post by summer23 on Oct 8, 2023 21:06:38 GMT -5
Yeah and? Iran hates Israel and Israel hates Iran. They’re responding as I expect that they would. But as far as outside involvement goes, the Tell will be if Hezbollah gets directly involved. And no, launching a few rockets from Lebanon at Israel isn’t what I mean. That happens regularly. If there’s a ground war between Hezbollah and Israel again (the last one was in 2006), I’m certain that Iran would have to give Hezbollah their blessing. And it would strengthen the argument that Iran coordinated this whole thing. But for now, it’s just speculative. What does Hezbollah getting directly involved mean to you? By the way, it looks like all the kids are friends again: Has the Afghanistan Taliban and Iran-backed Hezbollah in Lebanon joined Hamas in its fight against Israel? timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/has-the-afghanistan-taliban-and-iran-backed-hezbollah-in-lebanon-joined-hamas-in-its-fight-against-israel/articleshow/104260473.cms?from=mdr
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Post by zenwalk on Oct 8, 2023 21:12:24 GMT -5
The only answer to this Israeli problem is making Gaza part of Israel and more importantly opening the opportunity for any and all Gazans to become Israelis too. Ignoring the demographics makes a very close analogy to republicans ignoring the shifting the demographics in this country. Until two things can occupy the same space there is no other solution except to let the Gazans become Israelis too. That gives both sides an end point to work towards. Surely these wars and "lawn mowings" have a high price in all kinds of ways for everybody. I agree that Israel becoming a real pluralistic democracy could work and I support that. The problem is, demographics. Jews would be outnumbered by Arabs and it would no longer be a “Jewish State”. That’s the reason why giving full citizenship rights to Palestinians has been a non-starter. They have already hit the wall given their swelling number of orthodox who lounge around on the social welfare dime because their celestial purpose is to study holy books. Netanyahu's hands are tied because like trump his "base" is religious being made up of these people. The secular Jews have their heads screwed on right but there's not enough of them to throw Netanyahu into prison once and for all.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 8, 2023 21:36:58 GMT -5
Yeah and? Iran hates Israel and Israel hates Iran. They’re responding as I expect that they would. But as far as outside involvement goes, the Tell will be if Hezbollah gets directly involved. And no, launching a few rockets from Lebanon at Israel isn’t what I mean. That happens regularly. If there’s a ground war between Hezbollah and Israel again (the last one was in 2006), I’m certain that Iran would have to give Hezbollah their blessing. And it would strengthen the argument that Iran coordinated this whole thing. But for now, it’s just speculative. Just stop insulting everyone's intelligence. Hamas doesn't operate independently from Iran. Especially not on this scale. The Palestinians don't have the resources to do this without Iran. That’s not true. For example, during the Syrian civil war, Hamas backed Al Qaeda and the Syrian rebels while Iran backed the Syrian government. And it led to a breakup of Syria’s relationship with Hamas. Iran supports Hamas but if they controlled Hamas, then we wouldn’t have seen the divergence between Hamas and Iran in the Syrian civil war. In contrast, I do believe that Lebanon’s Hezbollah, which fought alongside Iran in Syria, operates under Iran’s control and will not initiate a war against Israel without Iran’s approval.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 8, 2023 21:41:33 GMT -5
Yeah and? Iran hates Israel and Israel hates Iran. They’re responding as I expect that they would. But as far as outside involvement goes, the Tell will be if Hezbollah gets directly involved. And no, launching a few rockets from Lebanon at Israel isn’t what I mean. That happens regularly. If there’s a ground war between Hezbollah and Israel again (the last one was in 2006), I’m certain that Iran would have to give Hezbollah their blessing. And it would strengthen the argument that Iran coordinated this whole thing. But for now, it’s just speculative. What does Hezbollah getting directly involved mean to you? By the way, it looks like all the kids are friends again: Has the Afghanistan Taliban and Iran-backed Hezbollah in Lebanon joined Hamas in its fight against Israel? timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/has-the-afghanistan-taliban-and-iran-backed-hezbollah-in-lebanon-joined-hamas-in-its-fight-against-israel/articleshow/104260473.cms?from=mdr 20 years after the Iraq war and you guys still don’t understand that Sunni and Shia Muslims don’t really like each other. Hamas and the Taliban are Sunni Muslims. Iran and Hezbollah are Shia Muslims. In spite of that, Iran supports Hamas but it’s a stretch to say that Iran “controls” Hamas the way they control Hezbollah. And Iran and the Taliban still don’t get along as we saw them skirmish with each other last Spring: Iran, Taliban exchange heavy gunfire in conflict over water rights on Afghan borderwww.pbs.org/newshour/world/iran-taliban-exchange-heavy-gunfire-in-conflict-over-water-rights-on-afghan-borderLittle known fact: After the 9/11 attacks, Iran offered to help us fight the Taliban in Afghanistan but our back-channel to Iran was broken when Bush did the “Axis of Evil” speech.
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summer23
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There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
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Post by summer23 on Oct 8, 2023 21:45:38 GMT -5
20 years after the Iraq war and you guys still don’t understand that Sunni and Shia Muslims don’t really like each other. Hamas and the Taliban are Sunni Muslims. Iran and Hezbollah are Shia Muslims. In spite of that, Iran supports Hamas but it’s a stretch to say that Iran “controls” Hamas the way they control Hezbollah. And Iran and the Taliban still don’t get along as we saw them skirmish with each other last Spring: Iran, Taliban exchange heavy gunfire in conflict over water rights on Afghan borderwww.pbs.org/newshour/world/iran-taliban-exchange-heavy-gunfire-in-conflict-over-water-rights-on-afghan-borderLittle known fact: After the 9/11 attacks, Iran offered to help us fight the Taliban in Afghanistan but the Bush administration turned them down. That's nice. What does Hezbollah getting directly involved mean to you?
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Post by soulflower on Oct 8, 2023 21:58:34 GMT -5
20 years after the Iraq war and you guys still don’t understand that Sunni and Shia Muslims don’t really like each other. Hamas and the Taliban are Sunni Muslims. Iran and Hezbollah are Shia Muslims. In spite of that, Iran supports Hamas but it’s a stretch to say that Iran “controls” Hamas the way they control Hezbollah. And Iran and the Taliban still don’t get along as we saw them skirmish with each other last Spring: Iran, Taliban exchange heavy gunfire in conflict over water rights on Afghan borderwww.pbs.org/newshour/world/iran-taliban-exchange-heavy-gunfire-in-conflict-over-water-rights-on-afghan-borderLittle known fact: After the 9/11 attacks, Iran offered to help us fight the Taliban in Afghanistan but the Bush administration turned them down. That's nice. What does Hezbollah getting directly involved mean to you? Hezbollah is much closer to Iran than Hamas is. I don’t think they would get involved without Iran’s approval and coordination. So if they get involved in this, that would convince me that Iran may have been coordinating the whole thing. For now, it’s not clear to me that Hamas coordinated with Iran or any outside countries.
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summer23
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There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
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Post by summer23 on Oct 8, 2023 22:08:08 GMT -5
That's nice. What does Hezbollah getting directly involved mean to you? Hezbollah is much closer to Iran than Hamas is. I don’t think they would get involved without Iran’s approval and coordination. So if they get involved in this, that would convince me that Iran may have been coordinating the whole thing. For now, it’s not clear to me that Hamas coordinated with Iran or any outside countries. The leader of Lebanon Hezbollah (backed by Iran) has already congratulated Hamas. Lebanese Hezbollah congratulated Hamas on the "large-scale, heroic operation" into Israel, saying they are "closely following the important developments on the Palestinian scene with great interest," according to a Hezbollah statement posted on a media site. www.barrons.com/news/lebanon-s-hezbollah-hails-hamas-for-heroic-operation-bee9a3a6I guess they don't dislike each other THAT much.
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Post by kandace on Oct 8, 2023 22:17:43 GMT -5
Good Goolgy Moogly. When Anya Bonget’s daughter Sofia told her she was going to an outdoor rave party in Israel’s Negev Desert, she saw no particular reason to worry. The venue was Kibbutz Re’im, just two miles from the border with Gaza, but with the frontier heavily-guarded, it seemed perfectly safe. Then, at 8am on Saturday morning, she rang Sofia to check up on her, after hearing news that terrorists had breached the border fence nearby.
“Mummy, they’re killing us,” was her reply. “They’re shooting at us.” Sofia, 21, was part of a crowd of revellers at an outdoor trance party that was targeted by the terrorists during their dawn raid on Saturday. Mobile phone footage showed the gunmen chasing the partygoers across a stretch of the Negev desert, shooting some and kidnapping others. At least 250 were killed.
Ms Bonget, 42, told The Telegraph of her phone conversation with Sofia as she joined other anxious parents giving DNA samples at an office near Israel’s Bun Gurion airport yesterday. As her daughter spoke her last words to her, she could hear screams in the background. Her daughter then hung up, but half an hour later sent a text saying she was “lucky to have the best parents in the world”.*************************
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Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 9, 2023 3:37:04 GMT -5
U.S. sends aircraft carrier group to eastern Mediterranean in response to Hamas attack on Israel www.cbsnews.com/news/hamas-attack-israel-secretary-austin-american-aircraft-carrier-group-eastern-mediterranean/U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin announced Sunday that he has ordered American military ships, including an aircraft carrier and additional aircraft, to move closer to the eastern Mediterranean in response to Hamas' unprecedented, multi-front attack on Israel. Several U.S. citizens were among those killed in the attacks, a National Security Council spokesperson confirmed Sunday after Austin's announcement. Have a feeling this is going to get worse
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 9, 2023 5:08:38 GMT -5
Just stop insulting everyone's intelligence. Hamas doesn't operate independently from Iran. Especially not on this scale. The Palestinians don't have the resources to do this without Iran. That’s not true. For example, during the Syrian civil war, Hamas backed Al Qaeda and the Syrian rebels while Iran backed the Syrian government. And it led to a breakup of Syria’s relationship with Hamas. Iran supports Hamas but if they controlled Hamas, then we wouldn’t have seen the divergence between Hamas and Iran in the Syrian civil war. In contrast, I do believe that Lebanon’s Hezbollah, which fought alongside Iran in Syria, operates under Iran’s control and will not initiate a war against Israel without Iran’s approval. All of these groups infight to some extent. That's the very nature of Islam. Where do you think Hamas got all of the equipment and missiles it had for this operation? They don't produce most of this in Palestine. Iran bankrolled and supplied this attack. It's obvious to anyone living in the real world. And it has been joined at the hip to Iran since it started.
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Post by ishmael on Oct 9, 2023 6:34:12 GMT -5
Just stop insulting everyone's intelligence. Hamas doesn't operate independently from Iran. Especially not on this scale. The Palestinians don't have the resources to do this without Iran. That’s not true. For example, during the Syrian civil war, Hamas backed Al Qaeda and the Syrian rebels while Iran backed the Syrian government. And it led to a breakup of Syria’s relationship with Hamas. Iran supports Hamas but if they controlled Hamas, then we wouldn’t have seen the divergence between Hamas and Iran in the Syrian civil war. In contrast, I do believe that Lebanon’s Hezbollah, which fought alongside Iran in Syria, operates under Iran’s control and will not initiate a war against Israel without Iran’s approval. You're forgetting the first rule of ME politics, SF..."An enemy of my enemy is my friend."
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Post by pickle20 on Oct 9, 2023 6:46:40 GMT -5
U.S. sends aircraft carrier group to eastern Mediterranean in response to Hamas attack on Israel www.cbsnews.com/news/hamas-attack-israel-secretary-austin-american-aircraft-carrier-group-eastern-mediterranean/U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin announced Sunday that he has ordered American military ships, including an aircraft carrier and additional aircraft, to move closer to the eastern Mediterranean in response to Hamas' unprecedented, multi-front attack on Israel. Several U.S. citizens were among those killed in the attacks, a National Security Council spokesperson confirmed Sunday after Austin's announcement. Have a feeling this is going to get worse And suddenly the anti-war crowd will become the pro-war crowd especially if it allows us to go after Iran. All the anti-war stuff is really just being anti-war with countries you don't view as threats. But if it's Iran all bets are off. But things are going to get worse at some point.
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Post by ishmael on Oct 9, 2023 6:57:40 GMT -5
Have a feeling this is going to get worse And suddenly the anti-war crowd will become the pro-war crowd especially if it allows us to go after Iran. All the anti-war stuff is really just being anti-war with countries you don't view as threats. But if it's Iran all bets are off. But things are going to get worse at some point. I would think the CNVBG is to discourage Iran from getting directly involved. I'd be surprised if they get involved in any other way. I think the general view is that the IDF will, once again, be able to take care of Hezbollah and Hamas, though I think this time their attacks will be extensive, detailed and violent. JIM is correct, this is going to get much worse before it gets any better.
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Post by ishmael on Oct 9, 2023 7:03:17 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Israel is playing right into the worst of Iran's hand. Cutting off food, water and electricity is not only inhumane, it's strategically stupid. Israel can win a lot of global energy right now by putting away their own hatred and showing significant restraint and pinpoint use of power. Anything else will be seen as just another round of an interminable ME common hatred and revenge.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 9, 2023 7:17:09 GMT -5
That’s not true. For example, during the Syrian civil war, Hamas backed Al Qaeda and the Syrian rebels while Iran backed the Syrian government. And it led to a breakup of Syria’s relationship with Hamas. Iran supports Hamas but if they controlled Hamas, then we wouldn’t have seen the divergence between Hamas and Iran in the Syrian civil war. In contrast, I do believe that Lebanon’s Hezbollah, which fought alongside Iran in Syria, operates under Iran’s control and will not initiate a war against Israel without Iran’s approval. All of these groups infight to some extent. That's the very nature of Islam. Where do you think Hamas got all of the equipment and missiles it had for this operation? They don't produce most of this in Palestine. Iran bankrolled and supplied this attack. It's obvious to anyone living in the real world. And it has been joined at the hip to Iran since it started. As of this morning, both the US and Israel officially deny that there's evidence of Iranian involvement with Hamas' offensive. That's where things stand for now despite the speculation.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 9, 2023 7:20:01 GMT -5
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 9, 2023 7:26:03 GMT -5
And suddenly the anti-war crowd will become the pro-war crowd especially if it allows us to go after Iran. All the anti-war stuff is really just being anti-war with countries you don't view as threats. But if it's Iran all bets are off. But things are going to get worse at some point. I would think the CNVBG is to discourage Iran from getting directly involved. I'd be surprised if they get involved in any other way. I think the general view is that the IDF will, once again, be able to take care of Hezbollah and Hamas, though I think this time their attacks will be extensive, detailed and violent. JIM is correct, this is going to get much worse before it gets any better. CNVBG?
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Post by ishmael on Oct 9, 2023 7:33:07 GMT -5
I would think the CNVBG is to discourage Iran from getting directly involved. I'd be surprised if they get involved in any other way. I think the general view is that the IDF will, once again, be able to take care of Hezbollah and Hamas, though I think this time their attacks will be extensive, detailed and violent. JIM is correct, this is going to get much worse before it gets any better. CNVBG? My apologies. An acronym I picked up somewhere a while back that stuck with me. Nuclear powered aircraft carrier battle group.
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Post by kandace on Oct 9, 2023 8:47:40 GMT -5
Putin most likely provided support for this. Open a second front so the US of A’s military support efforts are diverted from Ukraine.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 9, 2023 8:52:39 GMT -5
Putin most likely provided support for this. Open a second front so the US of A’s military support efforts are diverted from Ukraine. Link? Russia and Israel have had relatively good relations despite Russia's relations with Syria and Iran. The politics of the Middle East is messy. Not easy to fit into our domestic conspiracy theories about Russia. Israel was very pro-Trump. Representatives of Israel offered to help Trump during the 2016 election. Syria doesn't like Hamas. And I've seen no evidence that Russia supports Hamas.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 9, 2023 8:58:01 GMT -5
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
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Post by summer23 on Oct 9, 2023 9:14:29 GMT -5
Putin most likely provided support for this. Open a second front so the US of A’s military support efforts are diverted from Ukraine. Link? Russia and Israel have had relatively good relations despite Russia's relations with Syria and Iran. The politics of the Middle East is messy. Not easy to fit into our domestic conspiracy theories about Russia. Israel was very pro-Trump. Representatives of Israel offered to help Trump during the 2016 election. Syria doesn't like Hamas. And I've seen no evidence that Russia supports Hamas. Really? The Palestinian movement Hamas on Wednesday said it restored relations with the Syrian government after a visiting delegation met with President Bashar al-Assad in Damascus. The Islamist group, which controls the Gaza Strip, was long one of Syria's closest allies, in large part because of a shared enmity toward Israel. But Hamas left Syria in 2012 after condemning the Assad government's brutal suppression of protests in March 2011, which triggered the country's descent into civil war. "This is a glorious and important day, in which we come back to our dear Syria to resume joint work," Hamas chief of Arab relations Khalil al-Hayya told reporters in Damascus. "This is a new start for joint Palestinian-Syrian action," he said after meeting Assad along with other representatives of Palestinian factions. Hamas and Assad have agreed to "move on from the past and look to the future," al-Hayya added. www.voanews.com/a/hamas-resumes-ties-with-syria-in-damascus-visit-/6797583.html#:~:text=The%20Palestinian%20movement%20Hamas%20on,a%20shared%20enmity%20toward%20Israel.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 9, 2023 9:20:39 GMT -5
Link? Russia and Israel have had relatively good relations despite Russia's relations with Syria and Iran. The politics of the Middle East is messy. Not easy to fit into our domestic conspiracy theories about Russia. Israel was very pro-Trump. Representatives of Israel offered to help Trump during the 2016 election. Syria doesn't like Hamas. And I've seen no evidence that Russia supports Hamas. Really? The Palestinian movement Hamas on Wednesday said it restored relations with the Syrian government after a visiting delegation met with President Bashar al-Assad in Damascus. The Islamist group, which controls the Gaza Strip, was long one of Syria's closest allies, in large part because of a shared enmity toward Israel. But Hamas left Syria in 2012 after condemning the Assad government's brutal suppression of protests in March 2011, which triggered the country's descent into civil war. "This is a glorious and important day, in which we come back to our dear Syria to resume joint work," Hamas chief of Arab relations Khalil al-Hayya told reporters in Damascus. "This is a new start for joint Palestinian-Syrian action," he said after meeting Assad along with other representatives of Palestinian factions. Hamas and Assad have agreed to "move on from the past and look to the future," al-Hayya added. www.voanews.com/a/hamas-resumes-ties-with-syria-in-damascus-visit-/6797583.html#:~:text=The%20Palestinian%20movement%20Hamas%20on,a%20shared%20enmity%20toward%20Israel. I'm aware that Hamas and most Sunni Muslim Arab governments have restored relations with Syria recently. Still, the relationship between Syria and Hamas isn't the same today as it has been in the past. Syrians haven't forgotten about Hamas' support for the anti-government rebels.
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