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Post by soulflower on Oct 8, 2023 11:51:37 GMT -5
And so that negates Iran's role? Do you not know by now that life is not exact? That nothing is "black and white". And, in reality, it can be quite ugly and sometimes people have to make ugly decisions? I mean, you commented on another post about "gray" areas. That comment wasn’t intended to deny that Iran is a big supporter of Hamas. I’m just wondering why Iran gets so much attention for supporting Hamas while Qatar doesn’t get any? I kind of know why. It’s the same reason Saudi Arabia gets a pass for many of the evil things they do.
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
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Post by summer23 on Oct 8, 2023 11:52:35 GMT -5
And so that negates Iran's role? Do you not know by now that life is not exact? That nothing is "black and white". And, in reality, it can be quite ugly and sometimes people have to make ugly decisions? I mean, you commented on another post about "gray" areas. That comment wasn’t intended to deny that Iran is a big supporter of Hamas. I’m just wondering why Iran gets so much attention for supporting Hamas while Qatar doesn’t get any? I kind of know why. It’s the same reason Saudi Arabia gets a pass for many of the evil things they do. Because gray is ugly. It always has been and always will be.
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
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Post by summer23 on Oct 8, 2023 12:51:33 GMT -5
Democratic Socialists of America holds pro-‘Palestine’ rally in NYC today. I wonder how many of the squad are/were there?
I do love living in a country where even terrorist organizations, via Palestine, can attack a country and get a nice rally.
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Post by grindelwald on Oct 8, 2023 13:03:15 GMT -5
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Post by grindelwald on Oct 8, 2023 13:05:09 GMT -5
Democratic Socialists of America holds pro-‘Palestine’ rally in NYC today. I wonder how many of the squad are/were there? I do love living in a country where even terrorist organizations, via Palestine, can attack a country and get a nice rally. That's free speech.
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
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Post by summer23 on Oct 8, 2023 13:06:32 GMT -5
Democratic Socialists of America holds pro-‘Palestine’ rally in NYC today. I wonder how many of the squad are/were there? I do love living in a country where even terrorist organizations, via Palestine, can attack a country and get a nice rally. That's free speech. Yes, I know. I meant what I said and wasn't being sarcastic. I know that people should be able to have their opinions and views without needing to be de-programmed.
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Post by grindelwald on Oct 8, 2023 13:09:37 GMT -5
Yes, I know. I meant what I said and wasn't being sarcastic. I know that people should be able to have their opinions and views without needing to be de-programmed. Okay I misinterpreted the tone of your post then.
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
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Post by summer23 on Oct 8, 2023 13:16:59 GMT -5
Yes, I know. I meant what I said and wasn't being sarcastic. I know that people should be able to have their opinions and views without needing to be de-programmed. Okay I misinterpreted the tone of your post then. No worries. It was my fault for not being clearer.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 8, 2023 13:18:13 GMT -5
Democratic Socialists of America holds pro-‘Palestine’ rally in NYC today. I wonder how many of the squad are/were there? I do love living in a country where even terrorist organizations, via Palestine, can attack a country and get a nice rally. “Pro-Palestine” doesn’t equate to “pro-Hamas”. Hamas exists because of Israel’s repression. Plus Israel secretly helped Hamas get started in the 1980s to counter the PLO. Blowback for bad policies sucks. There are counter protesters in Times Square now
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Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 8, 2023 14:19:23 GMT -5
At this point, why should Israel act any different from the Palestinians? Why shouldn't they go around saying "From the river to the sea, Israel shall be free!" Why shouldn't they see Gaza and the West Bank as occupied Israeli territories and Palestinian "colonies?" Why shouldn't they send the IDF rampaging into Gaza, killing everyone they see and firing missiles indiscriminately into apartmemts? Israel has offered the Palestinians "self-determination" and tried the "two state solution" but the Palestinians refuse to accept it. They won't accept anything short of the conquest of Israel. Hamas and the PLO don't even want self determination. We know this because they haven't had parliamentary or presidential elections since 2006. They are not on a level playing field. Israel controls Gaza like an open air prison. When the oppressed revolt, it’s never pretty. Look at the history of slave revolts for example. And take my word for it on the open air prison thing: I also think you’re overselling Israel’s desire to make peace with the Palestinians. The last time they had a leader who made a good faith effort on that front, they killed him. Times of Israel: Rabin was assassinated with Netanyahu’s cooperation Where I agree with you is that Bibi has no interest in pursuing peace with the Palestinians. This was true before the events of yesterday. As for Palestine, Clinton got close but ultimately came away believing that Arafat just wouldn't take yes for an answer.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 8, 2023 14:25:59 GMT -5
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Post by guido2 on Oct 8, 2023 15:06:13 GMT -5
In 1947 the Palestinians should have taken the deal that gave around 20% of the land to the Jews, as there was not Israel state, and the remainder was given to the Palestinians. Just say'n Would you have given 20% of the US to the Jews? No? How about 10% or even 5%? No, I didn't think so. Done and done..... already. According to this article there were nearly 10 million jews in Europe around WW2. At 5% that comes to 500,000 Jews. exhibitions.ushmm.org/americans-and-the-holocaust/how-many-refugees-came-to-the-united-states-from-1933-1945The US in and around that time took in way more than that number overall. And not all, were huddled masses. Some were pretty damn rich.......... exhibitions.ushmm.org/americans-and-the-holocaust/how-many-refugees-came-to-the-united-states-from-1933-1945So, would the US just give Jews land? No. But, they didn't need to. Those that had money, just bought it. Those that didn't ..... for the most part.... believed in (at that time) that working hard in the land of opportunity they to would do well, and 'own' a piece of America. And they did. Now, what I am saying above is not BS, or hyperbole, or unicorns. I can tell you real stories about Jewish DPs, aka Deported Persons, (which is a misnomer, aka anybody that fled Europe) that bought into our system.... literally and figuratively and did very well for themselves. I spoke with grandparents living in cellars 'because it is safer' after the bombings. I met, very prosperous business owners in our town and their families. Who .... well owned big pieces of the US in a way. So, please don't throw that kind of challenge down. It has been already meet in spades.
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 8, 2023 15:18:48 GMT -5
Would you have given 20% of the US to the Jews? No? How about 10% or even 5%? No, I didn't think so. Done and done..... already. According to this article there were nearly 10 million jews in Europe around WW2. At 5% that comes to 500,000 Jews. exhibitions.ushmm.org/americans-and-the-holocaust/how-many-refugees-came-to-the-united-states-from-1933-1945The US in and around that time took in way more than that number overall. And not all, were huddled masses. Some were pretty damn rich.......... exhibitions.ushmm.org/americans-and-the-holocaust/how-many-refugees-came-to-the-united-states-from-1933-1945So, would the US just give Jews land? No. But, they didn't need to. Those that had money, just bought it. Those that didn't ..... for the most part.... believed in (at that time) that working hard in the land of opportunity they to would do well, and 'own' a piece of America. And they did. Now, what I am saying above is not BS, or hyperbole, or unicorns. I can tell you real stories about Jewish DPs, aka Deported Persons, (which is a misnomer, aka anybody that fled Europe) that bought into our system.... literally and figuratively and did very well for themselves. I spoke with grandparents living in cellars 'because it is safer' after the bombings. I met, very prosperous business owners in our town and their families. Who .... well owned big pieces of the US in a way. So, please don't throw that kind of challenge down. It has been already meet in spades. Sorry Guido, that is a load of claptrap, and you know it. I was talking about giving up a percentage of your land for the Jews to have their own state of Israel. That is a lot different to allowing Jews to "own a piece of America".
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Post by guido2 on Oct 8, 2023 15:23:51 GMT -5
Democratic Socialists of America holds pro-‘Palestine’ rally in NYC today. I wonder how many of the squad are/were there? I do love living in a country where even terrorist organizations, via Palestine, can attack a country and get a nice rally. Because, feel good warriors of all stripes rarely delve into the historic details. Lets start with the fact that for the most part Israel just wanted to be left alone. Then in 1967, the rest of the surrounding countries decided no you will be not left alone and driven out. And the Jews kicked their collective axxes. And sorry, to the victors go the spoils, that is the way of war and the way of the world. Here everybody read up. Fifty years ago, war transformed the Middle East. Six memorable days, known to Israelis as the Six-Day War and to Arabs and others as the 1967 War, redrew the region’s landscape in fundamental ways. In those six days, Israel defeated three Arab armies, gained territory four times its original size, and became the preeminent military power in the region. The war transformed Israel from a nation that perceived itself as fighting for survival into an occupier and regional powerhouse.
www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/the-1967-six-day-warSo IOWs, if these three nations which included Palestine had just decided to be 'good neighbors' and let live and let live prevail. Odds are pretty good we would not have the situation we have had for what? 6 decades? By the same token, maybe if the Jews were just left alone, and not singled out for blame of every single malady and issue the came about. And allowed to live their lives peacefully where ever they were. We likely would not be dealing with this crap.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 8, 2023 15:26:44 GMT -5
They are not on a level playing field. Israel controls Gaza like an open air prison. When the oppressed revolt, it’s never pretty. Look at the history of slave revolts for example. And take my word for it on the open air prison thing: I also think you’re overselling Israel’s desire to make peace with the Palestinians. The last time they had a leader who made a good faith effort on that front, they killed him. Times of Israel: Rabin was assassinated with Netanyahu’s cooperation Where I agree with you is that Bibi has no interest in pursuing peace with the Palestinians. This was true before the events of yesterday. As for Palestine, Clinton got close but ultimately came away believing that Arafat just wouldn't take yes for an answer. I’m not arguing that one side is entirely to blame for past failures at peace deals. Just making clear that there are good and bad actors on both sides. And as bad as Arafat and the PLO were, they’re a helluva a lot better to negotiate with than Hamas. Today, Israel has a more rightwing and reactionary government and we’re witnessing the fruits of both sides being governed by more hardline leaders.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 8, 2023 15:32:12 GMT -5
Democratic Socialists of America holds pro-‘Palestine’ rally in NYC today. I wonder how many of the squad are/were there? I do love living in a country where even terrorist organizations, via Palestine, can attack a country and get a nice rally. Because, feel good warriors of all stripes rarely delve into the historic details. Lets start with the fact that for the most part Israel just wanted to be left alone. Then in 1967, the rest of the surrounding countries decided no you will be not left alone and driven out. And the Jews kicked their collective axxes. And sorry, to the victors go the spoils, that is the way of war and the way of the world. Here everybody read up. Fifty years ago, war transformed the Middle East. Six memorable days, known to Israelis as the Six-Day War and to Arabs and others as the 1967 War, redrew the region’s landscape in fundamental ways. In those six days, Israel defeated three Arab armies, gained territory four times its original size, and became the preeminent military power in the region. The war transformed Israel from a nation that perceived itself as fighting for survival into an occupier and regional powerhouse. www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/the-1967-six-day-warSo IOWs, if these three nations which included Palestine had just decided to be 'good neighbors' and let live and let live prevail. Odds are pretty good we would not have the situation we have had for what? 6 decades? By the same token, maybe if the Jews were just left alone, and not singled out for blame of every single malady and issue the came about. And allowed to live their lives peacefully where ever they were. We likely would not be dealing with this crap. Not all Israelis are Jews and not all Jews support Israel. Also, while I agree that Israel has a very capable and modern military, they’ve looked very vulnerable against insurgents and I haven’t seen them look this vulnerable since the 2006 war with Lebanon’s Hezbollah. Also, there’s a protest in support of the Palestinians in DC today. Similar protests are happening all over the world.
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 8, 2023 15:43:49 GMT -5
Democratic Socialists of America holds pro-‘Palestine’ rally in NYC today. I wonder how many of the squad are/were there? I do love living in a country where even terrorist organizations, via Palestine, can attack a country and get a nice rally. Because, feel good warriors of all stripes rarely delve into the historic details. Lets start with the fact that for the most part Israel just wanted to be left alone. Then in 1967, the rest of the surrounding countries decided no you will be not left alone and driven out. And the Jews kicked their collective axxes. And sorry, to the victors go the spoils, that is the way of war and the way of the world. Here everybody read up. Fifty years ago, war transformed the Middle East. Six memorable days, known to Israelis as the Six-Day War and to Arabs and others as the 1967 War, redrew the region’s landscape in fundamental ways. In those six days, Israel defeated three Arab armies, gained territory four times its original size, and became the preeminent military power in the region. The war transformed Israel from a nation that perceived itself as fighting for survival into an occupier and regional powerhouse.
www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/the-1967-six-day-warSo IOWs, if these three nations which included Palestine had just decided to be 'good neighbors' and let live and let live prevail. Odds are pretty good we would not have the situation we have had for what? 6 decades? By the same token, maybe if the Jews were just left alone, and not singled out for blame of every single malady and issue the came about. And allowed to live their lives peacefully where ever they were. We likely would not be dealing with this crap. You use the word "Jews" instead of "Israel" far too frequently. If I were to do the same, people here would label me an anti-Semite.
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Post by guido2 on Oct 8, 2023 16:03:12 GMT -5
Because, feel good warriors of all stripes rarely delve into the historic details. Lets start with the fact that for the most part Israel just wanted to be left alone. Then in 1967, the rest of the surrounding countries decided no you will be not left alone and driven out. And the Jews kicked their collective axxes. And sorry, to the victors go the spoils, that is the way of war and the way of the world. Here everybody read up. Fifty years ago, war transformed the Middle East. Six memorable days, known to Israelis as the Six-Day War and to Arabs and others as the 1967 War, redrew the region’s landscape in fundamental ways. In those six days, Israel defeated three Arab armies, gained territory four times its original size, and became the preeminent military power in the region. The war transformed Israel from a nation that perceived itself as fighting for survival into an occupier and regional powerhouse.
www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/the-1967-six-day-warSo IOWs, if these three nations which included Palestine had just decided to be 'good neighbors' and let live and let live prevail. Odds are pretty good we would not have the situation we have had for what? 6 decades? By the same token, maybe if the Jews were just left alone, and not singled out for blame of every single malady and issue the came about. And allowed to live their lives peacefully where ever they were. We likely would not be dealing with this crap. You use the word "Jews" instead of "Israel" far too frequently. If I were to do the same, people here would label me an anti-Semite. Then they would be idiots. Israel was established because Jew were persecuted world wide. For what honest reason I can not fathom other than the fact that they were easily identified as a scapegoat due to their religious practices. Israel was not set up to be 'Disneyland'. It was set up to give a place to a peoples (Jews) that they could feel welcome and not under constant scrutiny. That was the whole damn point. So the brain trust at the time had two options. 1- Force every single nation and its inhabitants to treat Jews equally and with decency. 2- (Since 1 was definitely a no go) create a safe space for them to live out their lives and to be left alone and to their own devices. Now, the never stated fact is that you Brits. decided to relinquish the area to their own devices. Essentially, we're done here we have extracted everything of worth .... so have a good day and good luck. And had absolutely no blipping clue as to how to back out of the area, and leaving some sort of organized political after withdrawal and establishment of certifiable government and boundaries WHICH at the time didn't even consider the Jews/Israel ..... they punted to what became the UN.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 8, 2023 16:08:08 GMT -5
Because, feel good warriors of all stripes rarely delve into the historic details. Lets start with the fact that for the most part Israel just wanted to be left alone. Then in 1967, the rest of the surrounding countries decided no you will be not left alone and driven out. And the Jews kicked their collective axxes. And sorry, to the victors go the spoils, that is the way of war and the way of the world. Here everybody read up. Fifty years ago, war transformed the Middle East. Six memorable days, known to Israelis as the Six-Day War and to Arabs and others as the 1967 War, redrew the region’s landscape in fundamental ways. In those six days, Israel defeated three Arab armies, gained territory four times its original size, and became the preeminent military power in the region. The war transformed Israel from a nation that perceived itself as fighting for survival into an occupier and regional powerhouse.
www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/the-1967-six-day-warSo IOWs, if these three nations which included Palestine had just decided to be 'good neighbors' and let live and let live prevail. Odds are pretty good we would not have the situation we have had for what? 6 decades? By the same token, maybe if the Jews were just left alone, and not singled out for blame of every single malady and issue the came about. And allowed to live their lives peacefully where ever they were. We likely would not be dealing with this crap. You use the word "Jews" instead of "Israel" far too frequently. If I were to do the same, people here would label me an anti-Semite. Also worth noting that not all Palestinians are Muslims. Many are Christians and some are atheists.
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Post by guido2 on Oct 8, 2023 16:15:32 GMT -5
Done and done..... already. According to this article there were nearly 10 million jews in Europe around WW2. At 5% that comes to 500,000 Jews. exhibitions.ushmm.org/americans-and-the-holocaust/how-many-refugees-came-to-the-united-states-from-1933-1945The US in and around that time took in way more than that number overall. And not all, were huddled masses. Some were pretty damn rich.......... exhibitions.ushmm.org/americans-and-the-holocaust/how-many-refugees-came-to-the-united-states-from-1933-1945So, would the US just give Jews land? No. But, they didn't need to. Those that had money, just bought it. Those that didn't ..... for the most part.... believed in (at that time) that working hard in the land of opportunity they to would do well, and 'own' a piece of America. And they did. Now, what I am saying above is not BS, or hyperbole, or unicorns. I can tell you real stories about Jewish DPs, aka Deported Persons, (which is a misnomer, aka anybody that fled Europe) that bought into our system.... literally and figuratively and did very well for themselves. I spoke with grandparents living in cellars 'because it is safer' after the bombings. I met, very prosperous business owners in our town and their families. Who .... well owned big pieces of the US in a way. So, please don't throw that kind of challenge down. It has been already meet in spades. Sorry Guido, that is a load of claptrap, and you know it. I was talking about giving up a percentage of your land for the Jews to have their own state of Israel. That is a lot different to allowing Jews to "own a piece of America". If you have the ability to purchase land instead of it being given to you. Aren't they one in the same. And sorry, in the US, entire acres of property are gobbled up under a law called eminent domain. And are transferred to various entities that is deemed to be deserving of that area. Now is that for BLM developers, or someone that knows someone that wants to build a mega church or whatever. Like it or not it happens I have seen it for decades. And bottom line is that you guys punted ... .sorry that is an American football term.... I think you call it a free kick in soccer.
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Post by guido2 on Oct 8, 2023 16:25:57 GMT -5
Where I agree with you is that Bibi has no interest in pursuing peace with the Palestinians. This was true before the events of yesterday. As for Palestine, Clinton got close but ultimately came away believing that Arafat just wouldn't take yes for an answer. I’m not arguing that one side is entirely to blame for past failures at peace deals. Just making clear that there are good and bad actors on both sides. And as bad as Arafat and the PLO were, they’re a helluva a lot better to negotiate with than Hamas. Today, Israel has a more rightwing and reactionary government and we’re witnessing the fruits of both sides being governed by more hardline leaders. Is it rightwing or something else? Maybe they are just getting tired of having to justify their existence. Even the most patient person reaches a point where enough is enough. This was land that was set aside for Jews because .... more than apparently.... many countries and cultures just flat out would not allow Jews to live their own lives. Great concept, bad in reality. As we have seen. So the choices were..... and still are..... let Jews live among you or let them live in their own space. But as a US citizen I should talk. Face it, we have our own versions over the last few hundreds of years, where blacks pretty much just wanted to do the same, to live together, and that was rejected somewhat. So the Blacks decided to care out a small domain (think country) and white supremacists decided to burn their towns and business districts down. Yeah, I actually read and remember history.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 8, 2023 16:30:05 GMT -5
I’m not arguing that one side is entirely to blame for past failures at peace deals. Just making clear that there are good and bad actors on both sides. And as bad as Arafat and the PLO were, they’re a helluva a lot better to negotiate with than Hamas. Today, Israel has a more rightwing and reactionary government and we’re witnessing the fruits of both sides being governed by more hardline leaders. Is it rightwing or something else? Israel’s government today is increasingly made up of rightwing religious nuts. They were very pro-Trump in the Trump years too. In the past, Israel was more of a Liberal Social Democratic state.
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Post by guido2 on Oct 8, 2023 16:32:14 GMT -5
You use the word "Jews" instead of "Israel" far too frequently. If I were to do the same, people here would label me an anti-Semite. Also worth noting that not all Palestinians are Muslims. Many are Christians and some are atheists. Never go to a gun fight only armed with a knife. 😉😊 You are dealing with a Master Googler. 😉 The majority of Palestinians are Muslim, including those living overseas. All residents in the Palestinian Territories are required to declare a religion on an identification card issued by the Israeli government. According to this record, 98% of Palestinians identify as Sunni Muslims. culturalatlas.sbs.com.au/palestinian-culture/palestinian-culture-religionBTW don't bother trying to counter this by digging around, all results in a Google search are the same.
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 8, 2023 16:33:19 GMT -5
You use the word "Jews" instead of "Israel" far too frequently. If I were to do the same, people here would label me an anti-Semite. Now, the never stated fact is that you Brits. decided to relinquish the area to their own devices. Essentially, we're done here we have extracted everything of worth .... so have a good day and good luck. You have a very slanted and inaccurate view of the events of that period. Israel was founded on terrorism. Did your studies of history ever touch on the Irgun and Stern mobs? They were Zionist terrorists. Did you ever read about the King David Hotel bombing? All this Zionist murdering going on at the same time that Britain was fighting a war to free the Jews from the concentration camps. Your comment "Lets start with the fact that for the most part Israel just wanted to be left alone." My arse. The 'Israel' that was allocated to them was never enough, and never will be. They are still stealing parts of Palestine today. There is a strong reason why I have, and continue to consider that Zionism is a malignant cancer in the Middle East.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 8, 2023 17:15:48 GMT -5
Also worth noting that not all Palestinians are Muslims. Many are Christians and some are atheists. Never go to a gun fight only armed with a knife. 😉😊 You are dealing with a Master Googler. 😉 The majority of Palestinians are Muslim, including those living overseas. All residents in the Palestinian Territories are required to declare a religion on an identification card issued by the Israeli government. According to this record, 98% of Palestinians identify as Sunni Muslims. culturalatlas.sbs.com.au/palestinian-culture/palestinian-culture-religionBTW don't bother trying to counter this by digging around, all results in a Google search are the same. You're right. I thought there was a higher percentage of Palestinian Christians in Israel-Palestine than 2% but apparently, their numbers in the region have declined over the last few decades: Palestine’s Christian Population Has Nearly VanishedIn the birthplace of Christianity, the Palestinian Christian population is disappearing at an alarming rate.
Between 1922 and 2017, the Palestinian Christian population dropped from 70,000 to 47,000, according to Palestinian Authority census data. In Bethlehem, Jesus’ birthplace, the Christian population declined from 84% in 1922 to 22% in 2007, according to a 2020 survey by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) and the Philos Project.
Now less than 1% of Palestine’s population, treated like second-class citizens and caught in the middle of an ongoing conflict, Palestinian Christians continue to emigrate from the West Bank and Gaza to regions with greater economic and political stability.
“I shudder at the thought of a country where Christians (who have been in the same cities for centuries) are officially wiped out,” For the Martyrs founder, Gia Chacón said after visiting the West Bank herself.
Numerous factors have caused Palestinian Christians to emigrate: unending political instability, residency permit issues for both married couples and Christian clergy, limited space for the Christian community to expand in Jerusalem, disillusionment with the peace process and economic problems due to travel restrictions.
------ About half of the Palestinians that I know personally are Christians. I assume that a large percentage of Christians from the Middle East have migrated to the US and Europe.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 8, 2023 17:29:17 GMT -5
yikes
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Post by soulflower on Oct 8, 2023 17:58:13 GMT -5
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Post by ishmael on Oct 8, 2023 18:29:19 GMT -5
Now, the never stated fact is that you Brits. decided to relinquish the area to their own devices. Essentially, we're done here we have extracted everything of worth .... so have a good day and good luck. You have a very slanted and inaccurate view of the events of that period. Israel was founded on terrorism. Did your studies of history ever touch on the Irgun and Stern mobs? They were Zionist terrorists. Did you ever read about the King David Hotel bombing? All this Zionist murdering going on at the same time that Britain was fighting a war to free the Jews from the concentration camps. Your comment "Lets start with the fact that for the most part Israel just wanted to be left alone." My arse. The 'Israel' that was allocated to them was never enough, and never will be. They are still stealing parts of Palestine today. There is a strong reason why I have, and continue to consider that Zionism is a malignant cancer in the Middle East. Your view is a little slanted as well, WKDWZD. Hamas is a terrorist group fighting what they see as an Israeli nation that has stolen their land. Irgun and Stern used the same approach. While I won't say that you have supported Hamas in this thread, you certainly have, IMO, minimized their responsibility for the acts of the last couple of days. I see that position as a bit inconsistent with your indignation about the Israeli groups. Note, please, I don't disagree that Irgun and Stern used terrorist tactics. One can at least make a case that the Israelis have as much a claim to their area in the ME as does the group known as Palestinians. The UK has no such claim. The Jews knew who was fighting to get them out of the camps. They were also wondering why the western world took so long to get there. Israel fought to establish its control over those areas allocated to it by the UN when the UK ceded their Mandate, a Mandate that was ceded only when the cost of staying got too bloody (see also the US, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan over the last five decades). Israel established that control to a land, as arranged by the UN, on May 14, 1948. That very night forces from a multitude of Arabic launched land and air attacks against Israel, using land ceded to the Palestinian State...and promptly got their collective asses kicked. An attacking nation that launches attacks, and loses, has historically lost that land. That is, and long has been, the tradition of war. That is not to say you are incorrect when you state that the Israelis are taking land even today. They are, and it should be stopped. Launching 2200 rockets without warning is not the tool for doing that however. That only creates a greater belief of the need for space. Indeed, don't be surprised if the Israelis decide to take and hold Gaza.
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Post by zenwalk on Oct 8, 2023 19:04:33 GMT -5
“Pro-Palestine” doesn’t equate to “pro-Hamas”. Hamas exists because of Israel’s repression. Plus Israel secretly helped Hamas get started in the 1980s to counter the PLO. Blowback for bad policies sucks. The only answer to this Israeli problem is making Gaza part of Israel and more importantly opening the opportunity for any and all Gazans to become Israelis too. Ignoring the demographics makes a very close analogy to republicans ignoring the shifting the demographics in this country. Until two things can occupy the same space there is no other solution except to let the Gazans become Israelis too. That gives both sides an end point to work towards. Surely these wars and "lawn mowings" have a high price in all kinds of ways for everybody.
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 8, 2023 19:26:40 GMT -5
It is becoming increasingly clear that Iran is deeply involved in this. So now we know where that $6 billion we sent them went.
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