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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 14, 2024 19:37:31 GMT -5
Do you check under your bed for neoconservatives every night? I don't waste my time watching your garbage videos although I do wonder if you get paid by the clickNo. You'd rather be misled by credentialed BS'ers like David Frum who is unapologetic about the lies he told to lobby for the Iraq war. When is the last time you saw me post something by David Frum? Please be specific
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Post by soulflower on Apr 14, 2024 19:42:56 GMT -5
No. You'd rather be misled by credentialed BS'ers like David Frum who is unapologetic about the lies he told to lobby for the Iraq war. When is the last time you saw me post something by David Frum? Please be specific Not recently but you have many times in the past. Is there some sort of arbitrary cut-off? Is there a reason why you stopped posting Tweets or columns by Frum? Lastly, while Iran and Hamas have relations, they're not allies or joined at the hip. They've gone in different directions on issues in the Middle East that don't involve Israel and Hamas doesn't need Iran's permission to plot attacks. In contrast, Hezbollah and Iran are joined at the hip. Hamas and Hezbollah are not the same in terms of ideology, origins, or tactics. Hezbollah originated as a Lebanese resistance group that surfaced after Israel invaded Lebanon in the 80s.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 14, 2024 19:57:49 GMT -5
Lastly, while Iran and Hamas have relations, they're not allies or joined at the hip. They've gone in different directions on issues in the Middle East that don't involve Israel and Hamas doesn't need Iran's permission to plot attacks. You're making a fool of yourself
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Post by soulflower on Apr 14, 2024 20:12:59 GMT -5
Lastly, while Iran and Hamas have relations, they're not allies or joined at the hip. They've gone in different directions on issues in the Middle East that don't involve Israel and Hamas doesn't need Iran's permission to plot attacks. You're making a fool of yourself
People here said the same back when I was one of the few who didn't buy Bush's Iraq WMD lies. Colin Powell told blatant lies to the UN and many people believed him at the time but not me. It's lonely being ahead of other people in terms of smelling BS. Those who buy into the current BS will look foolish later if they're willing to admit that they were wrong. By the way, did they ever find that massive Hamas HQ under Al Shifa hospital? How's the investigation into the UNRWA workers going? Waiting for your follow-up on the UNRWA allegations or the fact that Israel tortured UN employees: Israel yet to provide evidence to back UNRWA 7 October attack claims – UNUNRWA Says Israel Tortured & Waterboarded Staffers, Leading to False Confessions By your logic, Netanyahu and Hamas are "joined at the hip", if simply supporting Hamas is all it takes Times of Israel: For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
Jerusalem Post: Netanyahu: Money to Hamas part of strategy to keep Palestinians divided
Politico: EU’s top diplomat accuses Israel of funding HamasIsrael's historical role in the rise of Hamas"Hamas, for its part, is alleged to have emerged out of the Israeli-financed Islamist movement in Gaza, with Israel’s then-military governor in that territory, Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, disclosing in 1981 that he had been given a budget for funding Palestinian Islamists to counter the rising power of Palestinian secularists. Hamas, a spin-off of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, was formally established with Israel’s support soon after the first Intifada flared in 1987 as an uprising against the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands."" Israel, by contrast, persisted with its covert nexus with Hamas. With the consent of Israel, Qatar, a longtime sponsor of jihadi groups, funneled $1.8 billion to Hamas just between 2012 and 2021, according to the Haaretz newspaper." -------------------------- I've made a clear distinction between Iran's relations with Hezbollah versus their relations with Hamas. It's not remotely the same kind of relationship. They're definitely not "joined at the hip" (see Syria for example where Hezbollah and Hamas were enemies throughout most of the Syrian civil war). Whatever their relationship with Iran, Hamas has more agency than Hezbollah. I can't see Hezbollah attacking Israel without Iran's approval. In contrast, even US intelligence admits that Iran wasn't involved with Hamas' October 7th plot. And you ignore Qatar and Netanyahu's financial support for Hamas. Why?
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 14, 2024 21:23:33 GMT -5
You're making a fool of yourself
People here said the same back when I was one of the few who didn't buy Bush's Iraq WMD lies. Colin Powell told blatant lies to the UN and many people believed him at the time but not me. It's lonely being ahead of other people in terms of smelling BS. Who do you think you're talking to? I was against Bush's preemptive invasion of Iraq and actually did a lot of work to organize opposition to that folly as opposed to just opining about it on some provincial internet forum. So can we just put your gloating about being the proverbial broken clock regarding Iraq behind us once and for all? I'd say you were a 'One Note Samba' but that song is actually enjoyable. Oh, and as I've said before, you're exactly the last person who should be talking about whether other people got claims right or wrong about a hospital. You'd rather everyone forget you breathlessly spreading that disinformation.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 14, 2024 21:56:02 GMT -5
What's actually been interesting is that we're seeing seeing a **** in Mideast politics. There are several Arab countries who are not just reflexively backing terrorist organizations like Hamas or destabilizing regimes like the Mullahs in Iran.
Unfortunately Netanyahu is not the right guy to take advantage of this new dynamic
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 15, 2024 6:20:39 GMT -5
For what it is worth, Ukraine regularly finds its cities under this kind of assault from Putin's military.
I have also read that Biden called both fighter squadrons to thank the airmen who participated in Israel's defense
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Post by soulflower on Apr 15, 2024 6:40:00 GMT -5
Western hypocrisy exposed live on TV. The emperor has no clothes
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 15, 2024 6:41:05 GMT -5
Yup. People can't see the forest for the trees because it's Iran.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 15, 2024 7:25:52 GMT -5
The dreaded David Frum weighs in
Since Soul is so obsessed with this guy, we might as well see what he has to say.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 15, 2024 7:48:22 GMT -5
Iran’s retaliatory attack on Israel was heavily telegraphed for days ahead of the strikes.
Iran’s intention was to make a statement while causing minimal harm to Israelis.
Warmongers like Netanyahu may unfortunately take Iran’s restraint as a sign of weakness. The only thing Israel’s hardliners understand is force.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 15, 2024 8:38:42 GMT -5
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Post by vosa on Apr 15, 2024 8:42:08 GMT -5
Hamas and Iran are not “joined at the hip”. Ask Syria’s Bashar Assad. He hasn’t forgiven Hamas still. www.newarab.com/news/hamas-may-reopen-damascus-office-despite-assad-criticism’Israel knew of Hamas’ October 7th plans a year in advance’
“Israel knew about a Hamas plan to strike the nation more than a year before the militant group launched its deadly surprise attack Oct. 7, The New York Times reported Thursday.
According to the Times, Israeli military and intelligence officials saw the plan as ambitious and thought it would be too hard for Hamas to pull off.
The Times said a document, code-named “Jericho Wall” by Israeli authorities, laid out an incursion like the one that sparked the current war between Israel and Hamas but did not point to a date for the attack. However, it did reportedly outline an assault that had an aim to overpower fortifications around Gaza, among other actions.
Hamas’s assault last month followed the plan quite closely to the blueprint, which was distributed on a large scale amongst Israeli military and intelligence leaders, the Times noted.“thehill.com/homenews/senate/4337115-israel-hamas-attack-plan/US intel says Iran was caught by surprise on October 7th. They didn’t know of Hamas’ plans. Stop deflecting criticism away from Israel. They’re not innocent . I see you've switched from "Iran has no involvement with Hamas" to "US intel says Iran was caught by surprise on October 7th." What's next, "Oh look, a squirrel."?
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Post by soulflower on Apr 15, 2024 8:57:15 GMT -5
Hamas and Iran are not “joined at the hip”. Ask Syria’s Bashar Assad. He hasn’t forgiven Hamas still. www.newarab.com/news/hamas-may-reopen-damascus-office-despite-assad-criticism’Israel knew of Hamas’ October 7th plans a year in advance’
“Israel knew about a Hamas plan to strike the nation more than a year before the militant group launched its deadly surprise attack Oct. 7, The New York Times reported Thursday.
According to the Times, Israeli military and intelligence officials saw the plan as ambitious and thought it would be too hard for Hamas to pull off.
The Times said a document, code-named “Jericho Wall” by Israeli authorities, laid out an incursion like the one that sparked the current war between Israel and Hamas but did not point to a date for the attack. However, it did reportedly outline an assault that had an aim to overpower fortifications around Gaza, among other actions.
Hamas’s assault last month followed the plan quite closely to the blueprint, which was distributed on a large scale amongst Israeli military and intelligence leaders, the Times noted.“thehill.com/homenews/senate/4337115-israel-hamas-attack-plan/US intel says Iran was caught by surprise on October 7th. They didn’t know of Hamas’ plans. Stop deflecting criticism away from Israel. They’re not innocent . I see you've switched from "Iran has no involvement with Hamas" to "US intel says Iran was caught by surprise on October 7th." What's next, "Oh look, a squirrel."? I’ve never said Iran has “no involvement with” Hamas. Please don’t misquote other posters. I said they’re not “joined at the hip” with Hamas. I know that some people think ‘all Muslims are the same’ but there’s nuances in terms of ideology and regional politics. Hamas is Sunni and Iran is Shia. Iran has no control over Hamas’ decisions. There’s a reason why Qatar and Saudi Arabia have been involved with the Israel-Hamas negotiations while Iran has not been involved. Hamas’ leaders are living in Qatar, not Iran…
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Post by vosa on Apr 15, 2024 9:07:49 GMT -5
I see you've switched from "Iran has no involvement with Hamas" to "US intel says Iran was caught by surprise on October 7th." What's next, "Oh look, a squirrel."? I’ve never said Iran has “no involvement with” Hamas. Please don’t misquote other posters.I said they’re not “joined at the hip” with Hamas. I know that some people think ‘all Muslims are the same’ but there’s nuances in terms of ideology and regional politics. Hamas is Sunni and Iran is Shia. Iran has no control over Hamas’ decisions. There’s a reason why Qatar and Saudi Arabia have been more involved with the Israel-Hamas negotiations while Iran has not been involved… To me that sure sounds like you're saying Iran has “no involvement with” Hamas.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 15, 2024 9:32:42 GMT -5
I’ve never said Iran has “no involvement with” Hamas. Please don’t misquote other posters.I said they’re not “joined at the hip” with Hamas. I know that some people think ‘all Muslims are the same’ but there’s nuances in terms of ideology and regional politics. Hamas is Sunni and Iran is Shia. Iran has no control over Hamas’ decisions. There’s a reason why Qatar and Saudi Arabia have been more involved with the Israel-Hamas negotiations while Iran has not been involved… To me that sure sounds like you're saying Iran has “no involvement with” Hamas. I clearly was referring to Hamas' terror attacks on October 7th. As of March 2024, US intelligence says they've seen no evidence that Iran was involved with the Oct. 7th attacks. If anyone wants to argue that Israel's attack on Iran's embassy was justified due to Iran's alleged involvement with Oct. 7th, see the US government's denial of Iranian involvement.
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,718
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Post by summer23 on Apr 15, 2024 9:40:25 GMT -5
It is complicated. Why has Iran attacked Israel? Iran launched drones and missiles towards Israel after vowing retaliation for a deadly strike on its consulate in the Syrian capital Damascus. Israel has not said it carried out the consulate strike, but is widely believed to have been behind it. It is the first time that Iran has attacked Israel directly. Previously Israel and Iran had been engaged in a years-long shadow war - attacking each other's assets without admitting responsibility. Those attacks have ratcheted up considerably during the current war in Gaza sparked by the Palestinian group Hamas's assault on nearby Israeli communities last October. Why are Israel and Iran enemies? The two countries were allies until the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran, which brought in a regime that has used opposing Israel as a key part of its ideology. Iran does not recognise Israel's right to exist and seeks its eradication. The country's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, has previously called Israel a "cancerous tumour" that "will undoubtedly be uprooted and destroyed". Israel believes that Iran poses an existential threat as evidenced by Tehran's rhetoric, its build-up of proxy forces sworn to Israel's destruction, its funding and arming of Palestinian groups including Hamas and of the Lebanese Shia militant group Hezbollah, and what it believes is Iran's secret pursuit of nuclear weapons, though Iran denies seeking to build a nuclear bomb. Iran wanted to hit back after attack on consulate Iran says Saturday night's bombardment of Israel is a response to the 1 April air strike on an Iranian consulate building in the Syrian capital Damascus, which killed senior Iranian commanders. Iran blames Israel for the air strike, which it saw as a violation of its sovereignty. Israel has not said it carried it out but is widely assumed to have done so. Thirteen people were killed, including Brig Gen Mohammad Reza Zahedi - a senior commander in the Quds force, the overseas branch of Iran's elite Republican Guards (IRGC). He had been a key figure in the Iranian operation to arm the Lebanese Shia armed group Hezbollah. The rest of the reasonable article is here: www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68811276
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Post by vosa on Apr 15, 2024 10:26:31 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Apr 15, 2024 10:46:40 GMT -5
I clearly was referring to Hamas' terror attacks on October 7th. As of March 2024, US intelligence says they've seen no evidence that Iran was involved with the Oct. 7th attacks. If anyone wants to argue that Israel's attack on Iran's embassy was justified due to Iran's alleged involvement with Oct. 7th, see the US government's denial of Iranian involvement. So let me see if I understand what you're selling. Iran supplied Hamas with weapons but Iran had no involvement with October 7. Iran supplied Hamas with training but Iran had no involvement with October 7. Iran supplied Hamas with money but Iran had no involvement with October 7. If you're having a beef with your neighbor and I supply your neighbor a gun and ammunition and he uses that gun and ammunition to kill you and your family am I involved in the murder of you and your family? "With the consent of Israel, Qatar, a longtime sponsor of jihadi groups, funneled $1.8 billion to Hamas just between 2012 and 2021, according to the Haaretz newspaper."www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2023/11/21/world/israel-failed-policy/Most of Hamas' money comes from Qatar with Israel's approval. Does that mean Israel and Qatar are also complicit in Hamas' terrorism? Israel also admits that they knew of Hamas' plans at least a year in advance. By your logic, the US is complicit in Israel's killing of 13,000 children in Gaza since last October and we're complicit in all war crimes committed by Israel. Are you willing to apply that logic universally? Or only to Muslim countries that you dislike?
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Post by vosa on Apr 15, 2024 11:31:00 GMT -5
So let me see if I understand what you're selling. Iran supplied Hamas with weapons but Iran had no involvement with October 7. Iran supplied Hamas with training but Iran had no involvement with October 7. Iran supplied Hamas with money but Iran had no involvement with October 7. If you're having a beef with your neighbor and I supply your neighbor a gun and ammunition and he uses that gun and ammunition to kill you and your family am I involved in the murder of you and your family? "With the consent of Israel, Qatar, a longtime sponsor of jihadi groups, funneled $1.8 billion to Hamas just between 2012 and 2021, according to the Haaretz newspaper."www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2023/11/21/world/israel-failed-policy/Most of Hamas' money comes from Qatar with Israel's approval. Does that mean Israel and Qatar are also complicit in Hamas' terrorism? Israel also admits that they knew of Hamas' plans at least a year in advance. By your logic, the US is complicit in Israel's killing of 13,000 children in Gaza since last October and we're complicit in all war crimes committed by Israel. Are you willing to apply that logic universally? Or only to Muslim countries that you dislike? Before WWII the U.S. sent steel to Japan, steel that the Japanese used to create the planes that bombed Pearl Harbor. Does that make the U.S. complicit in the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor? The enemy of my enemy is my friend. At least for a little while. It’s a classic case of blowback. “Israel’s experience echoes that of the U.S., which, during the Cold War, looked to Islamists as a useful ally against communism,” the Wall Street Journal wrote nearly 15 years ago. “Anti-Soviet forces backed by America after Moscow’s 1979 invasion of Afghanistan later mutated into al Qaeda.”As to the US being complicit in Israel's killing of 13,000 children in Gaza, you still don't seem to be able to understand the difference between a war and a terrorist attack.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 15, 2024 11:46:07 GMT -5
"With the consent of Israel, Qatar, a longtime sponsor of jihadi groups, funneled $1.8 billion to Hamas just between 2012 and 2021, according to the Haaretz newspaper."www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2023/11/21/world/israel-failed-policy/Most of Hamas' money comes from Qatar with Israel's approval. Does that mean Israel and Qatar are also complicit in Hamas' terrorism? Israel also admits that they knew of Hamas' plans at least a year in advance. By your logic, the US is complicit in Israel's killing of 13,000 children in Gaza since last October and we're complicit in all war crimes committed by Israel. Are you willing to apply that logic universally? Or only to Muslim countries that you dislike? Before WWII the U.S. sent steel to Japan, steel that the Japanese used to create the planes that bombed Pearl Harbor. Does that make the U.S. complicit in the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor? The enemy of my enemy is my friend. At least for a little while. It’s a classic case of blowback. “Israel’s experience echoes that of the U.S., which, during the Cold War, looked to Islamists as a useful ally against communism,” the Wall Street Journal wrote nearly 15 years ago. “Anti-Soviet forces backed by America after Moscow’s 1979 invasion of Afghanistan later mutated into al Qaeda.”As to the US being complicit in Israel's killing of 13,000 children in Gaza, you still don't seem to be able to understand the difference between a war and a terrorist attack.
I understand the differences very well. What's happening in Gaza is not conventional warfare. What Israel is doing in Gaza is "terrorism" on a much larger scale than what Hamas did on Oct. 7th. There are no excuses for denying food and medical aid to 2 million civilians who are caught in the middle of the fighting. Israel's conduct has also killed some of the hostages that Hamas is holding.
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Post by vosa on Apr 15, 2024 12:20:12 GMT -5
Before WWII the U.S. sent steel to Japan, steel that the Japanese used to create the planes that bombed Pearl Harbor. Does that make the U.S. complicit in the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor? The enemy of my enemy is my friend. At least for a little while. It’s a classic case of blowback. “Israel’s experience echoes that of the U.S., which, during the Cold War, looked to Islamists as a useful ally against communism,” the Wall Street Journal wrote nearly 15 years ago. “Anti-Soviet forces backed by America after Moscow’s 1979 invasion of Afghanistan later mutated into al Qaeda.”As to the US being complicit in Israel's killing of 13,000 children in Gaza, you still don't seem to be able to understand the difference between a war and a terrorist attack.
I understand the differences very well. What's happening in Gaza is not conventional warfare. What Israel is doing in Gaza is "terrorism" on a much larger scale than what Hamas did on Oct. 7th. There are no excuses for denying food and medical aid to 2 million civilians who are caught in the middle of the fighting. Israel's conduct has also killed some of the hostages that Hamas is holding. Why isn't it?
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Post by soulflower on Apr 15, 2024 12:26:36 GMT -5
Great analysis
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Post by soulflower on Apr 16, 2024 8:38:02 GMT -5
Slight majority of Israelis oppose escalatory response towards Iran. Interesting.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 16, 2024 14:13:48 GMT -5
Israel's boneheaded leaders are the biggest threat to Israel's future
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Post by zenwalk on Apr 16, 2024 14:21:44 GMT -5
Israel's boneheaded leaders are the biggest threat to Israel's future Like trump is campaigning for president out of self interest it's in Netanyahu's interest to delay justice for much the same reason. It's fascinating how these autocrats are using the exact same playbook. One would be forgiven for thinking there's a measure of collusion here. But that always brings the Right palpitations when the subject is brought up.
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Post by vosa on Apr 16, 2024 14:48:31 GMT -5
24 hours and still no answer to my question re why what's happening in Gaza is not conventional warfare.
I wonder why that is.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 16, 2024 15:07:51 GMT -5
24 hours and still no answer to my question re why what's happening in Gaza is not conventional warfare. I wonder why that is. Because Gaza doesn't have a conventional army. Next question... PS: This thread is about Iran's response to Israel attacking their consulate. Please try to stay on topic.
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Post by vosa on Apr 16, 2024 15:58:38 GMT -5
24 hours and still no answer to my question re why what's happening in Gaza is not conventional warfare. I wonder why that is. Because Gaza doesn't have a conventional army. Next question... PS: This thread is about Iran's response to Israel attacking their consulate. Please try to stay on topic. Next question: Can you tell me the difference between being shot by a member of a conventional army vs a member of a non-conventional army? The topic of this thread is CIA warns of Iran attack against Israel. Are you telling me that what is going on in Gaza has nothing to do with Iran attacking Israel?
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Post by zenwalk on Apr 16, 2024 16:43:40 GMT -5
Because Gaza doesn't have a conventional army. Next question... PS: This thread is about Iran's response to Israel attacking their consulate. Please try to stay on topic. Next question: Can you tell me the difference between being shot by a member of a conventional army vs a member of a non-conventional army? The topic of this thread is CIA warns of Iran attack against Israel. Are you telling me that what is going on in Gaza has nothing to do with Iran attacking Israel? This isn't warfare. It's more properly what the Germans did in Eastern Europe with the ghetto populations. The DNA of the Jewish faith will be stained for many years with the memory of what is happening in Gaza. trump talks about poisoning the blood. This is that.
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