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Post by soulflower on Apr 25, 2024 15:19:25 GMT -5
There was a tense debate about allowing the "Unite the Right" rally to happen in Charlottesville a few years ago. In the name of free speech, the protest was allowed to go forward despite the repugnant views of some of the groups that attended. If we can tolerate actual neo-nazis exercising their speech Rights, we can tolerate non-violent anti-war activists protesting against their schools' ties to a foreign government that is under investigation at the Hague for genocide. Gov. Abbott seems to only care about free speech for the far-Right. Which is hypocritical. Freedom of Speech is about protecting our Rights to express offensive or unpopular speech, and not so much about the Right to say things that don't offend anyone. You have the Right to do both but no one objects to speech if they're not offended. Um... You're conflating several different issues here. I have personally planned and coordinated dozens of protests and participated in many more. I got a permit for about 90 percent of them. I have also been arrested more than once. The reason the "unite the right" rally was allowed to go ahead is because of a concept in 1st amendment juris prudence known as a 'time and place' restriction. Basically a municipality can say, 'there are no parades or permits' on Charles Street but a municipality cannot say 'there can be no Saint Patrick's day parades on Charles Street'. Rules and regulations regarding speech cannot be discriminatory or show favoritism. Take this to a college campus and there may be legitimate reasons why a college would not allow protests or disruptive activities in certain areas or at certain times and that could certainly apply to consecutive overnight encampments on the quad. If these students feel strongly enough about the issue to violate those rules, good for them, but that also means that they should be prepared to face consequences for breaking the law, school policy, or codes of conduct. The history of civil disobedience is a history of people placing themselves at a certain level of personal risk, legally, societally, and even their personal safety, in order to effect change. It is not a game. Yes, Abbot has completely over-reacted and it will probably backfire on him as it should. I agree. Sometimes activists break laws and expect to get arrested (ie Rosa Parks). These kids aren't dumb. In fact, many of them are smarter than we were at their ages. Let's give them some credit.
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Post by alienrace on Apr 25, 2024 15:30:16 GMT -5
Police from outside of the campus security should be called as a last resort. Well, did they leave when campus police told them to leave?
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 25, 2024 15:39:07 GMT -5
I think these two pieces get to the crux of the issue.
At what point does a student's right to free speech on campus infringe on another student's right to safely partake in a university's facilities and benefits?
The guy below is a pretty hard core right wing fire brand but he's making a valid point.
Also, you can argue, if you want, that claims of anti-semitism are overblown but it has been a constant from the immediate aftermath of Oct 7.
We all recall people ripping down signs of the hostages, right? We haven't memory holed that have we?
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Post by ishmael on Apr 25, 2024 15:39:56 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see if there is a difference in how folks feel about these protests/disruptions on campuses, based on age. I'm 72. The protests of the late 60's were an ongoing part of both my high school and college life. I have no problem with protesting on college campuses, up to the point it disrupts the safety, peace of mind and studies of those who choose not to participate. Unfortunately, those three conditions are among the first to suffer.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Apr 25, 2024 15:42:56 GMT -5
Obviously Abbott is only "pro-life" when it's a fetus. That's almost universally true of the conservative position. There are exceptions; one such individual posts here. But not many.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 25, 2024 15:58:51 GMT -5
Police from outside of the campus security should be called as a last resort. Well, did they leave when campus police told them to leave? Why should they leave the campus if they're students? At best they could've been told to "disperse" and based on what I've seen, they did disperse but came back to demonstrate after the state police left. Hence why I said earlier, it's better for schools to try to control these protests and allow them space to do it rather than attempting to use force to stop them. The confrontations with the police are going viral on social media and leading to more demonstrations springing up at other colleges. And we all know that telling kids "not" to do something almost always makes them want to do it even more.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 25, 2024 16:03:52 GMT -5
Also, you can argue, if you want, that claims of anti-semitism are overblown but it has been a constant from the immediate aftermath of Oct 7. We all recall people ripping down signs of the hostages, right? We haven't memory holed that have we? There have been a few hoaxes and exaggerations exposed already. (There's video of the Yale incident described in the Tweet) And what are we supposed to do about people who are offended by criticism of Israel? The fact is, there are some Jews and pro-Israel non-Jews who conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism. That includes the Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson. Do you agree with his broad definition of antisemitism? Americans have the Right to criticize our own government and even burn our own flag. Why should there be exceptions on free speech made for a foreign government? Honest question. I don't doubt that there are some protesters saying offensive or bigoted stuff but that happens at every protest. Not everyone at a protest has consistent levels of discipline or politeness. Sometimes bad actors show up in order to intentionally disrupt the protest and make the protesters look bad. And the bad actors on the pro-Israel side who show up to counterprotest don't seem to get half as much attention or criticism. The First Amendment exists to protect unpopular or offensive speech. What's offensive to some people isn't always offensive to everyone. Conversations on sensitive subjects make people uncomfortable but that's not a reason not to have those conversations. And no one has the Right to be protected from speech that offends them outside of their homes or private businesses. The line is drawn at violence or threats of violence. In the video below, a Jewish Columbia student activist debunks some of the false narratives being spread on this issue
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 25, 2024 16:45:11 GMT -5
Also, you can argue, if you want, that claims of anti-semitism are overblown but it has been a constant from the immediate aftermath of Oct 7. We all recall people ripping down signs of the hostages, right? We haven't memory holed that have we? There have been a few hoaxes and exaggerations exposed already. who the f is David K?
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Post by soulflower on Apr 25, 2024 17:18:30 GMT -5
There have been a few hoaxes and exaggerations exposed already. who the f is David K? He's a journalist who writes for Jewish Currents magazine. David Klion is a writer and a contributing editor at Jewish Currents
jewishcurrents.org/author/david-klionNow, will you answer the questions I that posed to you??
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Post by guido2 on Apr 25, 2024 18:53:55 GMT -5
So then, who would you have removed them? They refused to leave, so is it "let them do whatever they want"? Seems to be a lot of that attitude these days. I'm with the ACLU on this. Police from outside of the campus security should be called as a last resort. Not clear if that's what happened. It looks more like Gov Abbott was trying to make a statement or an example of the students and it backfired. I haven't seen any evidence so far that the students were being violent or harming public safety. They weren't even blocking roads as we've seen some protesters do recently. Pretty much all I have seen showed that the students had set up tents on the green/quad, were verbally protesting and doing some dancing. That's it. But what is interesting, according to at least this article it seems that conservative/Republican types/students..... who are all about freedom of speech and individual rights blah blah. Seem to be the most intolerant ...... well if it is a liberal wanting to speak. What did pickle post..... ' Freedom for me not for thee". Check out this article: The Assault on Campus Free Speech Doesn’t Just Come from Liberals fee.org/articles/the-assault-on-campus-free-speech-doesnt-just-come-from-liberals/
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 25, 2024 19:38:32 GMT -5
He's a journalist who writes for Jewish Currents magazine. David Klion is a writer and a contributing editor at Jewish Currents
jewishcurrents.org/author/david-klionNow, will you answer the questions I that posed to you?? What questions?
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Post by soulflower on Apr 26, 2024 5:14:22 GMT -5
At Emory yesterday not UT
All the violence I’ve seen at these demonstrations has been initiated by police officers.
Really bizarre way to deal with non-violent anti-war protesters in a country that regularly tolerates KKK and neo-nazi protests. It confirms my feeling that the police at the Capitol on Jan 6, 2021 wouldn’t have been so lax if it was a Leftwing protest.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 26, 2024 5:37:44 GMT -5
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 26, 2024 6:33:08 GMT -5
Crushing other student's commencement ceremonies is "freedom" now?
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Post by cowboyz on Apr 26, 2024 6:59:42 GMT -5
Did they leave when they were non violently asked to leave their unsanctioned protest? Do you have an issue with people being required to follow the proper steps to get a permit to schedule a protest? Even BLM was getting required permits for some of their protests after some got out of control. Were these people beaten by Police? I already answered your question, I don't think you liked my answer. Some were and a news cameraman was violently arrested for no reason Real Jim Crow stuff. Stay classy Texas... Still didn't answer my question.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 26, 2024 7:19:39 GMT -5
Some were and a news cameraman was violently arrested for no reason Real Jim Crow stuff. Stay classy Texas... Still didn't answer my question. I answered it earlier when I shared the article explaining Texas law It’s in a legal gray area. Far from cut and dry. Here’s the link again www.texastribune.org/2024/04/24/protest-texas-college-campus-free-speech-rights/”In 2019, Texas lawmakers passed a free speech law that established all common outdoor areas at public universities as traditional public forums, allowing anyone – not just students and university members – to exercise free speech there, as long as their activities are lawful and don’t disrupt the normal functions of the campus.”
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Post by soulflower on Apr 26, 2024 7:22:15 GMT -5
No protests at Morehouse but students are chastising their Dean for inviting President Biden to speak at their commencement
The problem I see isn’t that these demonstrations have been violent. It’s that a lot of older folks are afraid to piss off Israel.
Young people are fearlessly holding our leaders accountable for being complicit in crimes against humanity
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 26, 2024 7:35:35 GMT -5
No protests at Morehouse but students are chastising their Dean for inviting President Biden to speak at their commencement The problem I see isn’t that these demonstrations have been violent. It’s that a lot of older folks are afraid to piss off Israel. Young people are fearlessly holding our leaders accountable for being complicit in crimes against humanity Nah. The problem is that a lot of young people love Hamas, hate Israel, and want to murder Jews. Like this piece of antisemtic garbage who's a protest leader at Columbia:
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 26, 2024 8:00:40 GMT -5
"Love Hamas". LOL. So stupid.
Emotions are running hot and people on both sides are saying things they may regret later on down the road. Or, they may actually believe them and shame on them. But they don't represent anything other than their own thoughts and feelings.
So far the protests are peaceful, but only one side has insisted on shutting down peaceful protests and restricting people's 1A rights.
That's where the biggest problem lies.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 26, 2024 8:02:09 GMT -5
No protests at Morehouse but students are chastising their Dean for inviting President Biden to speak at their commencement The problem I see isn’t that these demonstrations have been violent. It’s that a lot of older folks are afraid to piss off Israel. Young people are fearlessly holding our leaders accountable for being complicit in crimes against humanity Nah. The problem is that a lot of young people love Hamas, hate Israel, and want to murder Jews. Like this piece of antisemtic garbage who's a protest leader at Columbia: [] The Proud Boys and Christian Nationalists are part of the pro-Israel counter protests. Not a great look on their part: I’ve said repeatedly that there are bad actors on both sides. If they were election deniers you would be defending their right to speak their minds.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 26, 2024 8:40:26 GMT -5
'Rabbis for Hamas' (according to some people)
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Post by alienrace on Apr 26, 2024 11:22:04 GMT -5
If they were election deniers you would be defending their right to speak their minds. These protesters are free to speak their minds. What they aren't free to do is trespass when told not to assemble without a permit.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 26, 2024 11:30:43 GMT -5
If they were election deniers you would be defending their right to speak their minds. These protesters are free to speak their minds. What they aren't free to do is trespass when told not to assemble without a permit. Not clear that they needed a permit per Gov. Abbot's 2019 rules: ”In 2019, Texas lawmakers passed a free speech law that established all common outdoor areas at public universities as traditional public forums, allowing anyone – not just students and university members – to exercise free speech there, as long as their activities are lawful and don’t disrupt the normal functions of the campus.”www.texastribune.org/2024/04/24/protest-texas-college-campus-free-speech-rights/And students at the school aren't "trespassers" but Abbott's rule applies even to people who don't attend that school. If you can describe how the students were being disruptive prior to the State Police being called, please share. I haven't so far seen any examples of them being violent or disorderly prior to the police showing up.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 26, 2024 11:34:43 GMT -5
Assistant Dean at Indiana University apologizes for how the protesters were treated yesterday. She also says she may lose her job for speaking out. Very courageous of her.
On a personal note, I know someone (a Jewish person) who participated in the protest at IU yesterday and he said his wife was unjustifiably roughed up by the police.
Really shameful to see such thuggish tactics used against peace activists. If this were happening in other countries, we would condemn it.
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Post by zenwalk on Apr 26, 2024 11:45:22 GMT -5
Assistant Dean at Indiana University apologizes for how the protesters were treated yesterday. She also says she may lose her job for speaking out. Very courageous of her. On a personal note, I know someone (a Jewish person) who participated in the protest at IU yesterday and he said his wife was unjustifiably roughed up by the police. Really shameful to see such thuggish tactics used against peace activists. If this were happening in other countries, we would condemn it. Chicago is going to be a sh!t show. Bring gas masks and wine.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 26, 2024 12:01:29 GMT -5
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Post by zenwalk on Apr 26, 2024 12:03:47 GMT -5
Excellent news. Looks like the movement is finally getting on its feet.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 26, 2024 12:05:09 GMT -5
Assistant Dean at Indiana University apologizes for how the protesters were treated yesterday. She also says she may lose her job for speaking out. Very courageous of her. On a personal note, I know someone (a Jewish person) who participated in the protest at IU yesterday and he said his wife was unjustifiably roughed up by the police. Really shameful to see such thuggish tactics used against peace activists. If this were happening in other countries, we would condemn it. Chicago is going to be a sh!t show. Bring gas masks and wine. *nods* Gas masks seem to be a necessity when "progressives" gather.
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 26, 2024 12:06:17 GMT -5
These protesters are free to speak their minds. What they aren't free to do is trespass when told not to assemble without a permit. Not clear that they needed a permit per Gov. Abbot's 2019 rules: ”In 2019, Texas lawmakers passed a free speech law that established all common outdoor areas at public universities as traditional public forums, allowing anyone – not just students and university members – to exercise free speech there, as long as their activities are lawful and don’t disrupt the normal functions of the campus.”www.texastribune.org/2024/04/24/protest-texas-college-campus-free-speech-rights/And students at the school aren't "trespassers" but Abbott's rule applies even to people who don't attend that school. If you can describe how the students were being disruptive prior to the State Police being called, please share. I haven't so far seen any examples of them being violent or disorderly prior to the police showing up. Inconvenient facts for the anti-1A wannabe fascists.
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Post by zenwalk on Apr 26, 2024 12:08:45 GMT -5
Chicago is going to be a sh!t show. Bring gas masks and wine. *nods* Gas masks seem to be a necessity when "progressives" gather. Because your thuggish side requires it.
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