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Post by soulflower on Apr 29, 2024 19:44:36 GMT -5
Congress threatens ICC over Israeli arrest warrantsVery troubling to see bi-partisan attempts to destroy the post-WWII International Legal system. Even more troubling is the fact that the breakdown in international norms is occurring under a Democratic administration.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 29, 2024 21:10:09 GMT -5
I think the reality is somewhat different
First, there is the very real and legitimate question about what a country should be able to do in response to an attack by terrorists who imbed themselves in their civilian population
Second, the Biden administration is desperately trying to negotiate a ceasefire as an opening to a bigger peace initiative.
And I think they’ve always viewed spring/summer as the time when their efforts had the best chance of succeeding.
Right or wrong, they may view this as counterproductive to their overall goal
Again, if this was easy Clinton, Bush Sr, or Obama (all arguably more gifted politicians and/or statesmen) would have gotten it done.
Keep your eyes on the prize
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Post by soulflower on Apr 29, 2024 21:45:52 GMT -5
I think the reality is somewhat different First, there is the very real and legitimate question about what a country should be able to do in response to an attack by terrorists who imbed themselves in their civilian population What NOT to do: - Don’t destroy 90% of the homes civilians live in - Don’t target entire families with airstrikes and drone strikes - Don’t target schools and hospitals - Don’t cut off the food and medicine supplies - Don’t target journalists - Don’t target humanitarian aid workers Israel didn’t NEED to do any of the above things. They chose to be as destructive and brutal as possible with the intent of forcing Palestinians to leave Gaza so they can reoccupy it. Clear attempt at Ethnic cleansing. Second, the Biden administration is desperately trying to negotiate a ceasefire as an opening to a bigger peace initiative. Biden should’ve cut military aid to Israel months ago when they refused to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza. According to the State Department, Biden/Blinken have been sitting on evidence that Israel is committing war crimes and hasn’t acted on it…
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Post by ishmael on Apr 30, 2024 5:19:11 GMT -5
Congress threatens ICC over Israeli arrest warrantsVery troubling to see bi-partisan attempts to destroy the post-WWII International Legal system. Even more troubling is the fact that the breakdown in international norms is occurring under a Democratic administration. "post-WWII International Legal system"? What planet are you from? Neither India, China, Russia nor the US are signatories of this "post-WWII International Legal system". I agree with you though. They should not try to destroy it. They should just ignore it and it will eventually go away.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 30, 2024 6:09:36 GMT -5
Congress threatens ICC over Israeli arrest warrantsVery troubling to see bi-partisan attempts to destroy the post-WWII International Legal system. Even more troubling is the fact that the breakdown in international norms is occurring under a Democratic administration. "post-WWII International Legal system"? What planet are you from? Neither India, China, Russia nor the US are signatories of this "post-WWII International Legal system". I agree with you though. They should not try to destroy it. They should just ignore it and it will eventually go away. Your last two sentences contradict each other. The US is the leader of the free world. If we ignore international legal institutions, they have no power and international law becomes meaningless.
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Post by ishmael on Apr 30, 2024 6:23:21 GMT -5
"post-WWII International Legal system"? What planet are you from? Neither India, China, Russia nor the US are signatories of this "post-WWII International Legal system". I agree with you though. They should not try to destroy it. They should just ignore it and it will eventually go away.Your last two sentences contradict each other. The US is the leader of the free world. If we ignore international legal institutions, they have no power and international law becomes meaningless. Call it passive destruction then. The ICC subordinates the US Constitution. Not in this lifetime.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 30, 2024 6:35:57 GMT -5
Your last two sentences contradict each other. The US is the leader of the free world. If we ignore international legal institutions, they have no power and international law becomes meaningless. Call it passive destruction then. The ICC subordinates the US Constitution. Not in this lifetime. Sounds like you’re saying the US and our allies should be allowed to commit war crimes with impunity. If that’s the case, I strongly disagree…
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Post by ishmael on Apr 30, 2024 6:39:02 GMT -5
Call it passive destruction then. The ICC subordinates the US Constitution. Not in this lifetime. Sounds like you’re saying the US and our allies should be allowed to commit war crimes with impunity. If that’s the case, I strongly disagree… It only sounds like that because you continue to listen to the voices in your head.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 30, 2024 6:44:26 GMT -5
Sounds like you’re saying the US and our allies should be allowed to commit war crimes with impunity. If that’s the case, I strongly disagree… It only sounds like that because you continue to listen to the voices in your head. Way to lower the IQ-level of our discussion. Your disdain for international law and institutions is noted.
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Post by ishmael on Apr 30, 2024 6:50:04 GMT -5
It only sounds like that because you continue to listen to the voices in your head. Way to lower the IQ-level of our discussion. Your disdain for international law and institutions is noted. This is not an international institution, at least not in the sense of it having any effectiveness. International institutions don't exist when the major population and economic powers decide to sit it out. Heck, if you look at the UN, it is difficult to make the case that such thing as an international institution exists when even the major economic and population powers participate. The ICC is a jobs program for bureaucrats hoping to extend their sense of self-importance, and that's it.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 30, 2024 7:15:30 GMT -5
- Rather than attempt to prevent accountability, the US should be using our leverage over Israel to get them to quit committing war crimes.
- The US will not be the most powerful nation in the world forever so it’s very shortsighted to weaken international institutions that we may need to help resolve geopolitical issues in the future.
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Post by ishmael on Apr 30, 2024 7:49:09 GMT -5
- Rather than attempt to prevent accountability, the US should be using our leverage over Israel to get them to quit committing war crimes. - The US will not be the most powerful nation in the world forever so it’s very shortsighted to weaken international institutions that we may need to help resolve geopolitical issues in the future. And one quick way to lose that status as powerful is to subject itself and its people to the whims of a pseudo-justice system. We don't need anything from the ICC to use leverage over Israel and nothing the ICC can bring to the table will increase our leverage. What we need is for someone to make the case that the perennial threat from Hamas and its sponsors has been adequately dealt with, once and for all. Until that happens, there is no political will to stop Israel's attacks.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 30, 2024 8:06:12 GMT -5
- Rather than attempt to prevent accountability, the US should be using our leverage over Israel to get them to quit committing war crimes. - The US will not be the most powerful nation in the world forever so it’s very shortsighted to weaken international institutions that we may need to help resolve geopolitical issues in the future. And one quick way to lose that status as powerful is to subject itself and its people to the whims of a pseudo-justice system. Should nations be held accountable for war crimes? Yes or No? If your answer is "no", there's no point in further debate between us on this topic.
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Post by ishmael on Apr 30, 2024 8:09:32 GMT -5
And one quick way to lose that status as powerful is to subject itself and its people to the whims of a pseudo-justice system. Should nations be held accountable for war crimes? Yes or No? If your answer is "no", there's no point in further debate between us on this topic. Asking stupid questions is beneath you, soulflower. Yes. Nations should be held accountable for war crimes. As should be individuals, non-State groups and those nations supporting non-State groups.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 30, 2024 8:16:37 GMT -5
Should nations be held accountable for war crimes? Yes or No? If your answer is "no", there's no point in further debate between us on this topic. Asking stupid questions is beneath you, soulflower. Yes. Nations should be held accountable for war crimes. As should be individuals, non-State groups and those nations supporting non-State groups. It's not a stupid question. Check your arrogance at the door. Who should hold nations accountable if not an impartial international legal body like the ICC? Do you trust the Palestinians to fairly hold Israel accountable? Do you trust Cuba to fairly hold the US accountable? Did you oppose the ICC's warrant issued for Vladimir Putin? If you believe in accountability, why do you oppose a non-State court judging international laws and human rights laws?
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Post by ishmael on Apr 30, 2024 8:31:03 GMT -5
Asking stupid questions is beneath you, soulflower. Yes. Nations should be held accountable for war crimes. As should be individuals, non-State groups and those nations supporting non-State groups. It's not a stupid question. Check your arrogance at the door. Who should hold nations accountable if not an impartial international legal body like the ICC? Do you trust the Palestinians to fairly hold Israel accountable? Do you trust Cuba to fairly hold the US accountable? Did you oppose the ICC's warrant issued for Vladimir Putin? If you believe in accountability, why do you oppose a non-State court judging international laws and human rights laws? (1) The impartiality of the ICC is a myth. (2) No. (3) No. (4) No. (5) Yes. (6) The only international laws that exist are those laws signed on to by the various States, typically through treaty. Iran is not a signatory. Israel is not a signatory. "Palestine" is a State myth and doesn't exist. Hamas is a terrorist organization and not a State.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 30, 2024 9:09:53 GMT -5
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Post by ishmael on Apr 30, 2024 9:23:11 GMT -5
Is this article supposed to make a point of some kind? Israel is not a signatory to the ICC. As a result, the ICC has no jurisdiction over Israeli actions. Russia is not a signatory to the ICC. As a result, the ICC has no jurisdiction over Russian actions. The US is not a signatory to the ICC. As a result, the ICC has no jurisdiction over US actions. Iran is not a signatory to the ICC. As a result, the ICC has no jurisdiction over Iranian actions. "Palestine" is a signatory to the ICC, despite the fact that Palestine is not a recognized State. When the ICC starts trying the murders and terrorists that comprise the majority of the "Palestinian" governing authority, aka, Hamas, let me know.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 30, 2024 9:28:02 GMT -5
Is this article supposed to make a point of some kind? My intention was to post an article that explains what the ICC is and how it operates. The article wasn't a reply to your posts. Why are you so sensitive this morning?
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Post by ishmael on Apr 30, 2024 10:21:26 GMT -5
Is this article supposed to make a point of some kind? My intention was to post an article that explains what the ICC is and how it operates. The article wasn't a reply to your posts. Why are you so sensitive this morning? Oh. You think you are the only one here who knows about the ICC. Really?
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
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Post by summer23 on Apr 30, 2024 10:29:07 GMT -5
My intention was to post an article that explains what the ICC is and how it operates. The article wasn't a reply to your posts. Why are you so sensitive this morning? Oh. You think you are the only one here who knows about the ICC. Really? Yep.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 30, 2024 10:31:04 GMT -5
My intention was to post an article that explains what the ICC is and how it operates. The article wasn't a reply to your posts. Why are you so sensitive this morning? Oh. You think you are the only one here who knows about the ICC. Really? No but I don't assume that everyone who reads the thread is as brilliant as you. This isn't a private conversation between us you know. I want to make sure everyone understands the context.
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Post by ishmael on Apr 30, 2024 10:58:07 GMT -5
Oh. You think you are the only one here who knows about the ICC. Really? No but I don't assume that everyone who reads the thread is as brilliant as you. This isn't a private conversation between us you know. I want to make sure everyone understands the context. Everyone who is interested in commenting on it understands the context, SF. It really isn't all that difficult.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 30, 2024 11:05:46 GMT -5
No but I don't assume that everyone who reads the thread is as brilliant as you. This isn't a private conversation between us you know. I want to make sure everyone understands the context. Everyone who is interested in commenting on it understands the context, SF. It really isn't all that difficult. Thanks for your input. Like I said, the article you're referring to wasn't posted in response to you. Enjoy your day sir.
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Post by ishmael on Apr 30, 2024 11:52:17 GMT -5
Everyone who is interested in commenting on it understands the context, SF. It really isn't all that difficult. Thanks for your input. Like I said, the article you're referring to wasn't posted in response to you. Enjoy your day sir. And you, yours.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 30, 2024 13:13:44 GMT -5
Word salad
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Post by ishmael on Apr 30, 2024 14:30:00 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Apr 30, 2024 14:44:00 GMT -5
He's a hypocrite and everyone around the world can see it. The empire has no clothes.
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Post by zenwalk on Apr 30, 2024 14:46:14 GMT -5
Jack Smith was ICC director of investigations from 2008-10 implying we have some presence in the ICC. We are far too close to Israel to appreciate the level of heinousness in which they are prosecuting this fish in the barrel war. The nazis had a name for this sort of thing. They called it sport.
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Post by ishmael on Apr 30, 2024 16:02:56 GMT -5
He's a hypocrite and everyone around the world can see it. The empire has no clothes. That may well be - but he is still correct. Israel is not subject to not a part of the ICC jurisdiction. That is simply fact, soulflower, no matter how much you want to ignore it.
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