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Post by soulflower on Sept 27, 2022 7:33:49 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Sept 27, 2022 8:00:15 GMT -5
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Post by alienrace on Sept 27, 2022 8:00:16 GMT -5
This is a big deal and the question is, "Who" sabotaged them? Greenpeace
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Post by soulflower on Sept 27, 2022 8:03:18 GMT -5
This is a big deal and the question is, "Who" sabotaged them? Greenpeace So they'd rather Europeans burn more Coal this winter? That's what's happening by the way. This action was most likely deliberate and done by a State actor. Not going to point fingers. I just can't see amateurs pulling off something of this scale.
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Post by soulflower on Sept 27, 2022 10:23:00 GMT -5
Yeah, sounds like sabotage
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Post by soulflower on Sept 27, 2022 12:01:14 GMT -5
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 28, 2022 7:21:12 GMT -5
Greenpeace So they'd rather Europeans burn more Coal this winter? That's what's happening by the way. This action was most likely deliberate and done by a State actor. Not going to point fingers. I just can't see amateurs pulling off something of this scale. I think it's incompetence of some sort. The reason being is there's no obvious benefit to this. The main beneficiary of wrecked Russian infrastructure right now is Ukraine. But I don't see them doing something that might jeopardize weapons donations from Germany. The Germans want cheap gas. The Russians need the money. I don't think anyone else has sufficient interest in this to deliberately attack it. Russia is a mess right now. Call up the wrong person to serve, and put someone in charge of this who doesn't know what they're doing, the wrong valve gets turned, pressure rises in the pipeline, and it bursts. The argument against incompetence is both pipes were affected about the same time. But I think this can still be the result of incompetence. If it is deliberate, the most likely culprit is Russia. It's an incredibly dumb move from a country that desperately needs cash... but they've been wallowing in "incredibly dumb" since late February.
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 28, 2022 7:24:29 GMT -5
Yeah, sounds like sabotage It isn't the pipe itself that would fail. It's the connections. I don't know who built this, but Russian engineering aint ****, and never has been. And German engineering hasn't been very good for decades.
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Post by soulflower on Sept 28, 2022 7:46:01 GMT -5
Only one country benefits from this industrial sabotage and it’s not Russia or Germany.
The US has long wanted to break Germany’s dependence on Russian gas. Destroying a vital pipeline for Germany’s energy imports is a crude way to treat an ally but we have to consider how strongly the US opposed the pipelines. Even to the point of threatening sanctions against Germany.
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Post by cowboyz on Sept 28, 2022 7:59:22 GMT -5
Only one country benefits from this industrial sabotage and it’s not Russia or Germany. The US has long wanted to break Germany’s dependence on Russian gas. Destroying a vital pipeline for Germany’s energy imports is a crude way to treat an ally but we have to consider how strongly the US opposed the pipelines. Even to the point of threatening sanctions against Germany. Do you believe the US is behind the sabotage?
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Post by soulflower on Sept 28, 2022 8:11:06 GMT -5
Only one country benefits from this industrial sabotage and it’s not Russia or Germany. The US has long wanted to break Germany’s dependence on Russian gas. Destroying a vital pipeline for Germany’s energy imports is a crude way to treat an ally but we have to consider how strongly the US opposed the pipelines. Even to the point of threatening sanctions against Germany. Do you believe the US is behind the sabotage? It can't be ruled out unfortunately. Few potential suspects have the means and motive to destroy multiple underwater pipelines simultaneously. Germany and Ukraine have feuded over Russian gas imports but I don't think Ukraine has the means to do this. Not sure about Poland's ability to do this but they also have a rocky relationship with Germany. If the pipelines are permanently damaged, Russia loses any leverage they had over Germany. And German industry needs Russian gas and spent billions to build the newer pipeline so I think we can rule out either Russia or Germany being responsible for it.
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 28, 2022 8:18:49 GMT -5
Only one country benefits from this industrial sabotage and it’s not Russia or Germany. The US has long wanted to break Germany’s dependence on Russian gas. Destroying a vital pipeline for Germany’s energy imports is a crude way to treat an ally but we have to consider how strongly the US opposed the pipelines. Even to the point of threatening sanctions against Germany. The US doesn't benefit from this if we're exposed for doing it. If we were going to hit Germany with sanctions over this, the time to do that would have been prior to Nordstream II getting built. And the reality that we didn't hit them with sanctions is all the evidence any sane person would need that we didn't physically blow up the pipeline. If we opted not to do the former, surely we wouldn't do the latter. I mean, I grant you that POTUS is a demented coot who gets lost on stages. So it's impossible to rule out the possibility that he'd do something utterly demented. But this makes about as much sense as telling the military to get all our service members out of Afghanistan on a set deadline without doing the slightest bit of prep-work. Oh wait...
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 28, 2022 8:35:02 GMT -5
This is like when Iran uses "the oil weapon." Because they're not very bright, Iran thought it was punishing the west by cutting off our fuel supply. As it turns out, we can buy oil elsewhere, and when prices go up, we frack and drill here (well, we do when adults are running the country). In the long run, Iran lost market share and oil revenue. We paid more at the gas pump for a couple months. In short, the "oil weapon" is more of a suicide device. But that didn't stop the Iranians from using it anyway. And Putin is stupid enough to fall into the same trap.
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Post by soulflower on Sept 28, 2022 8:54:45 GMT -5
The US doesn't benefit from this if we're exposed for doing it. Of course. If we were going to hit Germany with sanctions over this, the time to do that would have been prior to Nordstream II getting built. And the reality that we didn't hit them with sanctions is all the evidence any sane person would need that we didn't physically blow up the pipeline. If we opted not to do the former, surely we wouldn't do the latter. Here's what the deputy Secretary of State said earlier this year about the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. The bi-partisan US foreign policy establishment was strongly against the pipeline and I don't think that's an understatement. “If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another, Nord Stream 2 will not move forward.”Newsweek: Video of Biden Saying He'd 'End' Nord Stream Resurfaces After Pipeline LeakIn spite of all that, I'm not sure if there will be any major political fallout for the US over this. Germany's current Chancellor is no Angela Merkel. He's been relatively feckless so far.
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Post by ishmael on Sept 28, 2022 9:00:23 GMT -5
Only one country benefits from this industrial sabotage and it’s not Russia or Germany. The US has long wanted to break Germany’s dependence on Russian gas. Destroying a vital pipeline for Germany’s energy imports is a crude way to treat an ally but we have to consider how strongly the US opposed the pipelines. Even to the point of threatening sanctions against Germany. Please. Do you have anything other than your contempt for the US on which to base this silliness?
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Post by soulflower on Sept 28, 2022 9:10:25 GMT -5
Only one country benefits from this industrial sabotage and it’s not Russia or Germany. The US has long wanted to break Germany’s dependence on Russian gas. Destroying a vital pipeline for Germany’s energy imports is a crude way to treat an ally but we have to consider how strongly the US opposed the pipelines. Even to the point of threatening sanctions against Germany. Please. Do you have anything other than your contempt for the US on which to base this silliness? Don't be naive. See Biden's own words. He said "we" would end Germany's pipeline. He didn't say he would ask Germany politely to permanently end their pipeline project and as long as the pipelines remained operational, there was always a chance that Germany, out of desperation, would regress back to being dependent on Russian gas. This is real politik Ish. It has nothing to do with morality or alliances. Poland, which has their own Baltic pipeline and would love to export gas to Germany, could be responsible too. I wouldn't rule out either the US or Poland. Can't see any other countries that benefit from the sabotage and also have the means to do it. In contrast, if Poland's Baltic pipeline got sabotaged, I would be more inclined to view Russia as a suspect because they would benefit from sabotaging their competitors' energy exports. Occam's Razor, the parties that have wanted to separate Germany and Russia economically are most likely responsible...
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 28, 2022 9:52:58 GMT -5
The US doesn't benefit from this if we're exposed for doing it. Of course. If we were going to hit Germany with sanctions over this, the time to do that would have been prior to Nordstream II getting built. And the reality that we didn't hit them with sanctions is all the evidence any sane person would need that we didn't physically blow up the pipeline. If we opted not to do the former, surely we wouldn't do the latter. Here's what the deputy Secretary of State said earlier this year about the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. The bi-partisan US foreign policy establishment was strongly against the pipeline and I don't think that's an understatement. “If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another, Nord Stream 2 will not move forward.”Newsweek: Video of Biden Saying He'd 'End' Nord Stream Resurfaces After Pipeline LeakIn spite of all that, I'm not sure if there will be any major political fallout for the US over this. Germany's current Chancellor is no Angela Merkel. He's been relatively feckless so far. And it didn't. It got built, then Russia shut it off to punish Germany for helping Ukraine. Now Germany understands it can't rely on Russian energy. In fact, it no longer wants to. The US didn't have to do a thing to end Nordstream II. It was already effectively gone. Blowing it up to underline the reality makes no sense.
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Post by soulflower on Sept 28, 2022 10:06:11 GMT -5
Of course. Here's what the deputy Secretary of State said earlier this year about the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. The bi-partisan US foreign policy establishment was strongly against the pipeline and I don't think that's an understatement. “If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another, Nord Stream 2 will not move forward.”Newsweek: Video of Biden Saying He'd 'End' Nord Stream Resurfaces After Pipeline LeakIn spite of all that, I'm not sure if there will be any major political fallout for the US over this. Germany's current Chancellor is no Angela Merkel. He's been relatively feckless so far. And it didn't. It got built, then Russia shut it off to punish Germany for helping Ukraine. Now Germany understands it can't rely on Russian energy. In fact, it no longer wants to. The US didn't have to do a thing to end Nordstream II. It was already effectively gone. Blowing it up to underline the reality makes no sense. Regardless of who was responsible, the biggest obstacle to de-coupling Russia from Europe was Germany. Forcing Germany to end their reliance on Russian gas imports serves the agenda of the US and our rabidly anti-Russian eastern European allies like Poland for example. All the benefits from this crisis seem to favor the groups who have been pressuring Germany to change course over the last few years. Also, not sure if you remember this speech from Trump where he mentioned the energy issue:
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Post by stevez51 on Sept 28, 2022 10:42:38 GMT -5
Of course. Here's what the deputy Secretary of State said earlier this year about the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. The bi-partisan US foreign policy establishment was strongly against the pipeline and I don't think that's an understatement. “If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another, Nord Stream 2 will not move forward.”Newsweek: Video of Biden Saying He'd 'End' Nord Stream Resurfaces After Pipeline LeakIn spite of all that, I'm not sure if there will be any major political fallout for the US over this. Germany's current Chancellor is no Angela Merkel. He's been relatively feckless so far. And it didn't. It got built, then Russia shut it off to punish Germany for helping Ukraine. Now Germany understands it can't rely on Russian energy. In fact, it no longer wants to. The US didn't have to do a thing to end Nordstream II. It was already effectively gone. Blowing it up to underline the reality makes no sense. Didn't Trump withhold the parts to complete it, then Biden released them ..?? The pipeline is done. It was built to avoid the 1st pipeline going through Ukraine.
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Post by soulflower on Sept 28, 2022 10:54:04 GMT -5
And it didn't. It got built, then Russia shut it off to punish Germany for helping Ukraine. Now Germany understands it can't rely on Russian energy. In fact, it no longer wants to. The US didn't have to do a thing to end Nordstream II. It was already effectively gone. Blowing it up to underline the reality makes no sense. Didn't Trump withhold the parts to complete it, then Biden released them ..?? The pipeline is done. It was built to avoid the 1st pipeline going through Ukraine. The Nord Stream 2 pipeline was 95% completed by the time Biden became President. He lifted some sanctions as a good faith measure towards Germany I think but I don't think the sanctions ever had the power to prevent the project from being completed. It's not clear whether Germany was ever going to use the new pipeline following Russia's invasion of Ukraine but they were still importing gas from Russia via the Nord Stream 1 pipeline which also was destroyed this week.
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 28, 2022 11:07:04 GMT -5
And it didn't. It got built, then Russia shut it off to punish Germany for helping Ukraine. Now Germany understands it can't rely on Russian energy. In fact, it no longer wants to. The US didn't have to do a thing to end Nordstream II. It was already effectively gone. Blowing it up to underline the reality makes no sense. Regardless of who was responsible, the biggest obstacle to de-coupling Russia from Europe was Germany. Forcing Germany to end their reliance on Russian gas imports serves the agenda of the US and our rabidly anti-Russian eastern European allies like Poland for example. All the benefits from this crisis seem to favor the groups who have been pressuring Germany to change course over the last few years. Also, not sure if you remember this speech from Trump where he mentioned the energy issue: Again, RUSSIA forced Germany to end their reliance on Russia. Neither of these pipes were flowing gas. Blowing them up would endanger US alliances with western Europe for no reason. The reasons you give were moot.
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 28, 2022 11:09:33 GMT -5
And it didn't. It got built, then Russia shut it off to punish Germany for helping Ukraine. Now Germany understands it can't rely on Russian energy. In fact, it no longer wants to. The US didn't have to do a thing to end Nordstream II. It was already effectively gone. Blowing it up to underline the reality makes no sense. Didn't Trump withhold the parts to complete it, then Biden released them ..?? The pipeline is done. It was built to avoid the 1st pipeline going through Ukraine. I remember Trump telling Germany that they were foolish to make themselves dependent on Russian gas, and refusing to allow the US to participate in that dependency. But I don't remember details. Turns out Trump was right about this too.
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Post by soulflower on Sept 28, 2022 11:38:06 GMT -5
Regardless of who was responsible, the biggest obstacle to de-coupling Russia from Europe was Germany. Forcing Germany to end their reliance on Russian gas imports serves the agenda of the US and our rabidly anti-Russian eastern European allies like Poland for example. All the benefits from this crisis seem to favor the groups who have been pressuring Germany to change course over the last few years. Also, not sure if you remember this speech from Trump where he mentioned the energy issue: Again, RUSSIA forced Germany to end their reliance on Russia. Neither of these pipes were flowing gas. Blowing them up would endanger US alliances with western Europe for no reason. The reasons you give were moot. Only if it can be proven that the US was involved. I suspect that it will be difficult to assess "who" did this. But the list of countries that benefit from this incident is short and it includes, the US, Poland, and Ukraine. So I don't see why it's crazy at all to speculate about US involvement. Polish member of the EU Parliament:
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 28, 2022 11:55:16 GMT -5
Again, RUSSIA forced Germany to end their reliance on Russia. Neither of these pipes were flowing gas. Blowing them up would endanger US alliances with western Europe for no reason. The reasons you give were moot. Only if it can be proven that the US was involved. I suspect that it will be difficult to assess "who" did this. But the list of countries that benefit from this incident is short and it includes, the US, Poland, and Ukraine. So I don't see why it's crazy at all to speculate about US involvement. Polish member of the EU Parliament: How does the US benefit?
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Post by soulflower on Sept 28, 2022 12:17:06 GMT -5
Only if it can be proven that the US was involved. I suspect that it will be difficult to assess "who" did this. But the list of countries that benefit from this incident is short and it includes, the US, Poland, and Ukraine. So I don't see why it's crazy at all to speculate about US involvement. Polish member of the EU Parliament: How does the US benefit? - US Gas exports to Europe will increase much faster - It forces Germany to more rapidly de-couple from Russia. They've been more reluctant than most other EU nations due to their dependence on Russian gas - The EU becomes more dependent on the US for energy and less dependent on Russia In the big picture, the US is getting what the leaders of both parties wanted for years before Russia invaded Ukraine. And yes, Putin is to blame for invading Ukraine which made all these US objectives more achievable than it would've been had the February invasion not happened. Hence why most view his invasion as a major miscalculation.
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 28, 2022 12:33:05 GMT -5
- US Gas exports to Europe will increase much faster - It forces Germany to more rapidly de-couple from Russia. They've been more reluctant than most other EU nations due to their dependence on Russian gas - The EU becomes more dependent on the US for energy and less dependent on Russia In the big picture, the US is getting what the leaders of both parties wanted for years before Russia invaded Ukraine. And yes, Putin is to blame for invading Ukraine which made all these US objectives more achievable than it would've been had the February invasion not happened. Hence why most view his invasion as a major miscalculation. 1) Nope. The gas was already shut off. Whatever was going to happen with US exports in the short term was already going to happen. 2) Also nope. See point 1. 3) Nope again. Same reason. In this case, Putin is to blame for turning off the gas and revealing to western Europe that Russia is not a stable energy source. Putin did that all by himself, and blowing up the pipeline accomplished nothing Putin hasn't already done. Care to try again with something better?
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Post by soulflower on Sept 28, 2022 13:40:05 GMT -5
- US Gas exports to Europe will increase much faster - It forces Germany to more rapidly de-couple from Russia. They've been more reluctant than most other EU nations due to their dependence on Russian gas - The EU becomes more dependent on the US for energy and less dependent on Russia In the big picture, the US is getting what the leaders of both parties wanted for years before Russia invaded Ukraine. And yes, Putin is to blame for invading Ukraine which made all these US objectives more achievable than it would've been had the February invasion not happened. Hence why most view his invasion as a major miscalculation. 1) Nope. The gas was already shut off. Whatever was going to happen with US exports in the short term was already going to happen. 2) Also nope. See point 1. 3) Nope again. Same reason. In this case, Putin is to blame for turning off the gas and revealing to western Europe that Russia is not a stable energy source. Putin did that all by himself, and blowing up the pipeline accomplished nothing Putin hasn't already done. Care to try again with something better? We agree that Putin had the power to shut off the gas pipeline whenever he wanted and started limiting gas via the pipelines after invading Ukraine. However, no pipelines = no leverage over Germany for Putin. He no longer has the power to use Gas exports blackmail Germany. We may never find out "who" did it but we have a pretty good idea of who benefits and who had the motive, means, and opportunity to do it.
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Post by vosa on Sept 28, 2022 14:26:57 GMT -5
Only one country benefits from this industrial sabotage and it’s not Russia or Germany. The US has long wanted to break Germany’s dependence on Russian gas. Destroying a vital pipeline for Germany’s energy imports is a crude way to treat an ally but we have to consider how strongly the US opposed the pipelines. Even to the point of threatening sanctions against Germany. Huh? Biden waived the sanctions on Nordstream.Why would he do that if the US opposed the pipelines?
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Post by soulflower on Sept 28, 2022 14:41:21 GMT -5
Only one country benefits from this industrial sabotage and it’s not Russia or Germany. The US has long wanted to break Germany’s dependence on Russian gas. Destroying a vital pipeline for Germany’s energy imports is a crude way to treat an ally but we have to consider how strongly the US opposed the pipelines. Even to the point of threatening sanctions against Germany. Huh? Biden waived the sanctions on Nordstream.Why would he do that if the US opposed the pipelines? Probably as a good faith gesture to Angela Merkel who had a rocky relationship with Trump: Biden’s Surrender to Merkel on Nord Stream 2But by February of this year, Merkel was gone and Biden made clear that "we would end" Nord Stream 2 if Russia invaded Ukraine. Video of Biden Saying He'd 'End' Nord Stream Resurfaces After Pipeline Leak
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Post by stevez51 on Sept 28, 2022 16:10:40 GMT -5
It was just about done after Biden removed the sanctions. Saying he would end it was after the horse had left the barn .
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