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Post by soulflower on Apr 27, 2023 17:53:04 GMT -5
Who is "we"? You're entitled to believe whatever you want. We may never get conclusive evidence anyway. But Hersh's article hasn't been debunked and remains the most plausible among all the theories that suddenly came out after his article... I know it's important to you blame everything in the United States but it doesn't make sense so, despite your definitive statement, it is not the most plausible among all the theories. Only one country has been against the Nord Stream pipelines since the Bush II administration. Biden said the US would "end" Nord Stream if Russia invaded Ukraine. Biden's deputy SoS said she was happy that the pipeline is at the bottom of the Baltic sea (weird thing to say about an ally's infrastructure). It's obvious why investigators don't seem to be in a rush to find out who did it. If there was any inkling that this could be pinned on Russia, western intelligence agencies would be leaking like crazy. Instead, they literally admit that "it's better not to know who did it": Since no country is yet ruled out from having carried out the attack, officials said they were loath to share suspicions that could accidentally anger a friendly government that might have had a hand in bombing Nord Stream.
In the absence of concrete clues, an awkward silence has prevailed. “It’s like a corpse at a family gathering,” the European diplomat said, reaching for a grim analogy. Everyone can see there’s a body lying there, but pretends things are normal. “It’s better not to know.”www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/04/03/nord-stream-bombing-yacht-andromeda/“Is there any interest from the authorities to come out and say who did this? There are strategic reasons for not revealing who did it,” said Jens Wenzel Kristoffersen, a Danish naval commander and military expert at the University of Copenhagen. “As long as they don’t come out with anything substantial, then we are left in the dark on all this — as it should be.”www.nytimes.com/2023/04/07/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-theories.html
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 27, 2023 18:21:49 GMT -5
I know it's important to you blame everything in the United States but it doesn't make sense so, despite your definitive statement, it is not the most plausible among all the theories. Only one country has been against the Nord Stream pipelines since the Bush II administration. Russia was conducting naval activity near the blast site a couple of days before the explosion You can repeat the same crap over and over again until you're blue in the face. it doesn't make sense for the US to risk the rupture in the alliance and the diminished support for Ukraine in Germany by doing this. It never has. Biden may be a lot of things but he's not stupid. Meanwhile, the Danish government is claiming that they can put a Russian vessel with the exact kind of capabilities necessary for this mission in the neighborhood right before the explosion.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 27, 2023 19:45:39 GMT -5
Only one country has been against the Nord Stream pipelines since the Bush II administration. it doesn't make sense for the US to risk the rupture in the alliance and the diminished support for Ukraine in Germany by doing this. It never has. It makes perfect sense if you understand how power works and the nature of our relationship with Germany. They're the junior partner in our relationship We're not equals (The US and Germany). Let's assume for the sake of argument that Germany knows it was the US. What can they realistically do about it? Is Germany in a position to hold us accountable? Of course not. Would Germany leave NATO? Probably not. They don't have the balls to sanction the US or kick US troops out of Germany. That would cause more problems for them than it would solve. Hence why if you read between the lines of the quotes that I've cited from Europeans familiar with the investigations, they're basically saying it's better not to know "who" did it if it's potentially an ally. Powerful countries violate international laws when they know no one is willing to hold them accountable. This applies to the US and how we treat other countries as much as it applies to Russia. The US, followed by Ukraine and maybe Poland have been the biggest opponents to Germany importing energy from Russia. The invasion of Ukraine gave them the opportunity to do what they've long wanted to do to the pipelines. Of course, this is entirely speculative on my part (we may never get conclusive proof) but it's based on the history of US opposition to the Germany-Russia pipelines.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 27, 2023 22:12:50 GMT -5
it doesn't make sense for the US to risk the rupture in the alliance and the diminished support for Ukraine in Germany by doing this. It never has. It makes perfect sense if you understand how power works My god, you are arrogant Of course, this is entirely speculative on my part I’m sorry to have to say this but you don’t know what you are talking about.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 28, 2023 7:20:00 GMT -5
It makes perfect sense if you understand how power works My god, you are arrogant Of course, this is entirely speculative on my part I’m sorry to have to say this but you don’t know what you are talking about. Time will tell. As of today, the case remains open...
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Post by JoyinMudville on May 3, 2023 19:13:55 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on May 3, 2023 21:19:39 GMT -5
I doubt that the Russians would use their own naval ship to blow up their own pipelines and then attempt the repair the pipelines.
They may be dumb but they’re not that dumb. The lack of motive has always been the obstacle to blaming Russia for the Nord Stream attack.
Also, it’s interesting that this news is dropping now after the CIA leaked the story about the pro-Ukrainian suspects. Guess no one bought that story.
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Post by soulflower on May 22, 2023 15:38:32 GMT -5
Germany still suspects Ukrainian involvement in the Nord Stream sabotage. The article is behind a paywall Times UK article - t.co/jn7mrMFMNP
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Post by Evil Yoda on May 22, 2023 18:51:30 GMT -5
It is possible the Russians caught wind of trouble brewing and that is why they had ships in the area. It is also possible than someone leaked that so they would respond in that way, and confuse matters because at that point the sabotage was ready and only awaited the press of a button.
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Post by JoyinMudville on May 22, 2023 21:14:52 GMT -5
I’m more ready to believe that it was Ukraine as opposed to the USA-
Germany’s support was somewhat lagging behind other European countries
But again, if you’re Ukraine is it worth risking the ire of such a pivotal European country, one that is housing your refugees and one that you are hoping will provide you with material aid? Look at how important and how difficult the decision to release Leopard Tanks was. If I am Zelensky it is not worth the risk of antagonizing such a key country.
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Post by soulflower on May 23, 2023 5:54:55 GMT -5
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Post by Evil Yoda on May 23, 2023 13:07:52 GMT -5
The Russians and Putin are certainly capable of sabotaging their own pipeline and trying to pin the blame on Ukraine. Putin, old spy that he is, certainly understands that if he can turn world sentiment away from Ukraine it makes his army's job easier. And, old spy that he is, he is certainly capable morally and politically of doing this.
Fortunately, I do not have to figure out where the blame rests... it could be anyone!
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Post by soulflower on Jun 6, 2023 10:20:24 GMT -5
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jun 6, 2023 23:25:29 GMT -5
Sorry, doesn't pass the smell test
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Post by soulflower on Jun 7, 2023 6:50:43 GMT -5
Sorry, doesn't pass the smell test What part?
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jun 8, 2023 16:38:16 GMT -5
Sorry, doesn't pass the smell test What part? You want us to believe that six Ukrainians rented a Danish pleasure vessel and then loaded the explosives, avocation, and deep sea diving equipment necessary to sabotage a couple of pipelines at the bottom of the Baltic Sea? Not buying it
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Post by soulflower on Jun 8, 2023 17:32:54 GMT -5
You want us to believe that six Ukrainians rented a Danish pleasure vessel and then loaded the explosives, avocation, and deep sea diving equipment necessary to sabotage a couple of pipelines at the bottom of the Baltic Sea? Not buying it That we agree on. I’m not convinced that Ukraine could’ve pulled it off without the help of a State actor (ie Poland, the US, or UK). But it’s nevertheless worth noting that US and German intelligence keep pointing the finger at Ukraine. And the new detail in the Washington Post report is that US intel knew of their plans three months in advance. Is that the whole story? Or is it a cover story? Time will tell…
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jun 8, 2023 17:41:31 GMT -5
You want us to believe that six Ukrainians rented a Danish pleasure vessel and then loaded the explosives, avocation, and deep sea diving equipment necessary to sabotage a couple of pipelines at the bottom of the Baltic Sea? Not buying it That we agree on. I’m not convinced that Ukraine could’ve pulled it off without the help of a State actor (ie Poland, the US, or UK). But it’s nevertheless worth noting that US and German intelligence keep pointing the finger at Ukraine. And the new detail in the Washington Post report is that US intel knew of their plans three months in advance. Is that the whole story? Or is it a cover story? Time will tell… And we have Russian ships with the capability to actually carry out the mission in the water near the blast in the days immediately prior to the explosion
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Post by soulflower on Jun 8, 2023 18:00:52 GMT -5
That we agree on. I’m not convinced that Ukraine could’ve pulled it off without the help of a State actor (ie Poland, the US, or UK). But it’s nevertheless worth noting that US and German intelligence keep pointing the finger at Ukraine. And the new detail in the Washington Post report is that US intel knew of their plans three months in advance. Is that the whole story? Or is it a cover story? Time will tell… And we have Russian ships with the capability to actually carry out the mission in the water near the blast in the days immediately prior to the explosion While Russia’s navy is under an international microscope, do you really believe they used one of their naval ships to do this and somehow didn’t get caught? Furthermore, do you really believe US intelligence would keep leaking information implicating Ukraine if they had leads that could implicate Russia? As I mentioned earlier, German investigators have also implicated Ukrainians (not necessarily the Ukrainian government). The recent Washington Post article suggests that Ukraine’s armed forces commander, not President Zelensky, was involved. Why Ukraine is being thrown under the bus, I don’t know but it makes no sense that they would be leaking this stuff if they had evidence which could implicate the Russians…
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Post by soulflower on Jun 13, 2023 18:06:40 GMT -5
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Post by Jimmy Jazz on Nov 11, 2023 14:42:42 GMT -5
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 11, 2023 14:50:43 GMT -5
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 11, 2023 15:01:56 GMT -5
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 11, 2023 15:33:19 GMT -5
Gotta say, this still doesn't add up.
I'm supposed to believe that six guys show up at a marina with, literally, a TRUCKLOAD of deep sea diving equipment, advanced sonar, et cetera and rent a little sail boat to go out into the middle of the Baltic Sea with shaped explosive charges and blow up an pipeline a half mile underwater?
On their first try? If I am marina operator in Denmark, I'm going to remember if these guys show up with their accents and equipment and then a couple of hours/days later a major pipeline blows up
I guess, but somehow it seems very unlikely to me.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 11, 2023 16:02:13 GMT -5
I too remain skeptical about the “small group of Ukrainians with a small boat” conspiracy theory but that seems to be where all the evidence is pointing.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 11, 2023 16:56:03 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Feb 7, 2024 11:05:36 GMT -5
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Post by Jimmy Jazz on Feb 10, 2024 18:13:44 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Feb 10, 2024 19:14:29 GMT -5
It was one of the funnier moments in a mostly boring interview. Tucker’s father worked for the CIA and Tucker says he applied and was rejected by the CIA when he was younger.
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