|
Post by Ranger John on Feb 8, 2023 14:04:38 GMT -5
If this is true, Biden needs to be impeached and removed. The act of shutting off a NATO ally's gas supply going into winter needs to be punished. This isn't something NATO countries should be doing to each other. FWIW, though, I still think this was most likely Putin trying to punish and shut down German industry. I doubt that Republicans would impeach Biden over this given that both parties agree on getting Germany to stop importing so much Russian gas. And according to investigators in Europe, there doesn’t appear to be any evidence indicating Russian involvement in destroying their own pipeline. LMAO! I think the GOP would do it in a heartbeat if it were conclusively proven that Biden ordered this. It's an attack on a NATO ally. And after the Democrats impeached Trump over a phone call, how could they not be in as well? For purely political reasons, impeaching Biden for this is an absolute win for the GOP. Blowing up these pipelines has crippled the German industrial sector - and hurt their ability to produce weapons for Ukraine. The Russians have been blowing up infrastructure left and right in Ukraine and they could do this without anyone being able to raise much of a stink - after all the pipeline is 51% owned by Gazprom.
|
|
|
Post by JoyinMudville on Feb 8, 2023 14:21:40 GMT -5
If this is true, Biden needs to be impeached and removed. The act of shutting off a NATO ally's gas supply going into winter needs to be punished. This isn't something NATO countries should be doing to each other. FWIW, though, I still think this was most likely Putin trying to punish and shut down German industry. This, simply put, does not pass the smell test. 1. Russia had already shut down the pipe line 2. Germany was already moving toward halting imports of Russian natural gas (the result of a months long diplomatic effort by Biden and the State Department) 3. The U.S. needed and still needs Germany to be on board with both our approach to helping Ukraine and the sanctions policy toward Russia. 4. Sabotaging the pipeline would put #2 and #3 at grave risk and further risk a massive split in NATO. 5. I would be stunned if this turns out to be true.
|
|
|
Post by ivanbalt on Feb 8, 2023 14:23:11 GMT -5
There’s an overwhelming amount of specific details in the article. Either Hersh, a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, is lying, or he has an excellent source… If anything in Wikipedia is to be believed, dude seems to have become a bit of a conspiracy theorist. Based on the very specific details, his source would likely need to be someone on the NSC. Apparently he's also big on anonymous sources.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Feb 8, 2023 14:53:38 GMT -5
If this is true, Biden needs to be impeached and removed. The act of shutting off a NATO ally's gas supply going into winter needs to be punished. This isn't something NATO countries should be doing to each other. FWIW, though, I still think this was most likely Putin trying to punish and shut down German industry. This, simply put, does not pass the smell test. 1. Russia had already shut down the pipe line 2. Germany was already moving toward halting imports of Russian natural gas (the result of a months long diplomatic effort by Biden and the State Department) 3. The U.S. needed and still needs Germany to be on board with both our approach to helping Ukraine and the sanctions policy toward Russia. 4. Sabotaging the pipeline would put #2 and #3 at grave risk and further risk a massive split in NATO. 5. I would be stunned if this turns out to be true. I tend to agree. This still stinks of Putin to me. The US should not be in the business of blowing up gas pipelines anywhere, let alone somewhere that serves a close NATO ally. If we did this, I'd be ashamed of our country. Still, it is true that Biden and Nuland did say they would end NordStream if Russia attacked Ukraine and it is, in fact, what happened.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Feb 8, 2023 15:52:56 GMT -5
I doubt that Republicans would impeach Biden over this given that both parties agree on getting Germany to stop importing so much Russian gas. And according to investigators in Europe, there doesn’t appear to be any evidence indicating Russian involvement in destroying their own pipeline. LMAO! I think the GOP would do it in a heartbeat if it were conclusively proven that Biden ordered this. It's an attack on a NATO ally. And after the Democrats impeached Trump over a phone call, how could they not be in as well? For purely political reasons, impeaching Biden for this is an absolute win for the GOP. Blowing up these pipelines has crippled the German industrial sector - and hurt their ability to produce weapons for Ukraine. The Russians have been blowing up infrastructure left and right in Ukraine and they could do this without anyone being able to raise much of a stink - after all the pipeline is 51% owned by Gazprom. And if there were any evidence that Russia was involved it would be front page news. Germany’s loss is our gain because they will need to buy more Gas from US companies. The US benefits from the pipelines being destroyed and our representatives can’t even hide their glee in public.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Feb 8, 2023 15:55:58 GMT -5
LMAO! I think the GOP would do it in a heartbeat if it were conclusively proven that Biden ordered this. It's an attack on a NATO ally. And after the Democrats impeached Trump over a phone call, how could they not be in as well? For purely political reasons, impeaching Biden for this is an absolute win for the GOP. Blowing up these pipelines has crippled the German industrial sector - and hurt their ability to produce weapons for Ukraine. The Russians have been blowing up infrastructure left and right in Ukraine and they could do this without anyone being able to raise much of a stink - after all the pipeline is 51% owned by Gazprom. And if there were any evidence that Russia was involved it would be front page news. Germany’s loss is our gain because they will need to buy more Gas from US companies. The US benefits from the pipelines being destroyed and our representatives can’t even hide their glee in public. Then this administration has committed an act of terrorism and everyone who knew about and approved it needs to be arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. There is no solid evidence of who did this. Russia has reasons to do it.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Feb 8, 2023 15:59:32 GMT -5
There’s an overwhelming amount of specific details in the article. Either Hersh, a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, is lying, or he has an excellent source… If anything in Wikipedia is to be believed, dude seems to have become a bit of a conspiracy theorist. Based on the very specific details, his source would likely need to be someone on the NSC. Apparently he's also big on anonymous sources. FWIW, Wikipedia labels any non-mainstream media analysis that questions the government “conspiracy theorists”. They’re not totally unbiased. They prefer mainstream media over alternative media (with good reason given that Alternative media includes lots of sketchy sources as well as good sources). I’m not arguing that Hersh’s article is flawless. It’s just clear that all the circumstantial evidence points to either US involvement or US support for whomever did it. And anyone who disagrees with Hersh should challenge the points he’s made rather than attack his credibility.
|
|
|
Post by JoyinMudville on Feb 8, 2023 16:02:39 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Feb 8, 2023 16:22:17 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Jimmy Jazz on Feb 8, 2023 16:47:55 GMT -5
The alleged involvement of Norway and the alleged tangential involvement of Sweden and Denmark leaves a lot of avenues available for confirmation.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Feb 8, 2023 17:08:28 GMT -5
The alleged involvement of Norway and the alleged tangential involvement of Sweden and Denmark leaves a lot of avenues available for confirmation. The best criticism of Hersh’s article is that he relies on a single anonymous source. That’s never a good practice. At least two or more sources are better if you’re dealing with people who need to remain anonymous. However, there’s tons of details in the piece. Enough that if one or more details are inaccurate, it should be easily debunked. On the broader geopolitics, I suspect that if there’s evidence of US involvement, it might be suppressed because none of the EU countries are currently in a position to confront the US publicly or privately. The investigators in Europe have so far not found any evidence implicating Russia: www.telesurtv.net/news/Germany-Declares-No-Russian-Involvement-in-Nord-Stream-Attack-20230204-0002.html
|
|
|
Post by JoyinMudville on Feb 8, 2023 20:27:48 GMT -5
Occam's Razor The Biden administration wouldn't do something that, if discovered, would tear apart NATO and lead to anti-American protests throughout Germany at a time when were desperately trying to bring the alliance together and needed Germany's support on sanctions and military aid to Ukraine. Furthermore, we had already secured commitments from Germany on the very subject of the pipelines. Just doesn't make sense - conspiracy mongers not withstanding.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Feb 8, 2023 20:50:01 GMT -5
Occam's Razor The Biden administration wouldn't do something that, if discovered, would tear apart NATO and lead to anti-American protests throughout Germany at a time when were desperately trying to bring the alliance together and needed Germany's support on sanctions and military aid to Ukraine. Furthermore, we had already secured commitments from Germany on the very subject of the pipelines. Just doesn't make sense - conspiracy mongers not withstanding. Good people sometimes do bad things when they convince themselves that it’s for a good cause. And there are ways for governments to do things that give them plausible deniability. That’s an area that the CIA excels at most of the time. For example, I believe Colin Powell was a generally good person yet he lied through his teeth when he did that UN presentation about Iraq’s non-existent WMDs. Around the same time, Bob Mueller lied about an Iraq role in the Anthrax letters that were going around. There are some ruthless people in Biden’s administration like Victoria Nuland (who said F* the EU in a diplomatic phone conversation) and Jake Sullivan (who gleefully said “Al Qaeda is on our side in Syria” in a leaked email). Biden doesn’t have only honorable or morally flawless people in his inner circle. I’ll grant you that Sy Hersh has a mixed record since breaking the My Lai massacre and Abu Ghraib stories but there are enough specific details in his article that others should be able to corroborate or debunk his claim.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Feb 8, 2023 20:53:36 GMT -5
Occam's Razor The Biden administration wouldn't do something that, if discovered, would tear apart NATO and lead to anti-American protests throughout Germany at a time when were desperately trying to bring the alliance together and needed Germany's support on sanctions and military aid to Ukraine. Furthermore, we had already secured commitments from Germany on the very subject of the pipelines. Just doesn't make sense - conspiracy mongers not withstanding. I agree. The implications of this, if it is true, is Biden impeached, arrested and turned over to German authorities for committing an act of international terrorism. Because that's what would be needed to satisfy NATO. The US standing behind such an act of aggression on a NATO ally would be a stake through the heart of the alliance. It makes zero sense on the economic side either. Putin was already shutting down the pipelines to punish Germany and Europe for getting involved in Ukraine. Putin blowing them up out of spite is closer to Occam's Razor than the US destroying something that had become functionally irrelevant. The US does have some extra gas capacity now, but certainly not enough to make up the difference here.
|
|
|
Post by Jimmy Jazz on Feb 8, 2023 21:04:45 GMT -5
Feel like everyone is overlooking a really simple possible explanation. It could be that Germany knew.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Feb 8, 2023 21:22:54 GMT -5
It makes zero sense on the economic side either. Putin was already shutting down the pipelines to punish Germany and Europe for getting involved in Ukraine. Putin blowing them up out of spite is closer to Occam's Razor than the US destroying something that had become functionally irrelevant. It makes zero sense for Putin to destroy pipelines that Russia partially owned, spent billions to construct, and that Putin could shut off any time he wanted. Anything is possible but Russia is at the bottom of possible suspects due to the lack of a motive (or evidence). Investigators so far have found no evidence of Russian involvement. Dec 2022 - World leaders were quick to blame Moscow for explosions along the undersea natural gas pipelines. But some Western officials now doubt the Kremlin was responsible"...after months of investigation, numerous officials privately say that Russia may not be to blame after all for the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines.
“There is no evidence at this point that Russia was behind the sabotage,” said one European official, echoing the assessment of 23 diplomatic and intelligence officials in nine countries interviewed in recent weeks".February 4th - German top official says no evidence of Russian sabotage of Nord Stream pipeline The US does have some extra gas capacity now, but certainly not enough to make up the difference here. Getting Germany to reduce their dependence on Russian oil and gas has been a long-term objective of the US Foreign Policy establishment. What's the unwritten objective of NATO? " To keep the US in Europe and Russia out". 2008 - German-US Tensions Grow Over Baltic Pipeline"When it comes to Russia, politicians in Washington generally view Germany with suspicion. They accuse the Germans of being so dependent on Russian gas that they don't dare speak their mind to the Russian strongman, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin. But the Baltic States, Poland and the Scandinavians are also uneasy about the pipeline. They are afraid that Moscow and Berlin have made a special deal".And despite all the criticisms of Trump being too cozy with Putin, in many ways he was tougher on Russia than Obama was: 2018 - Trump lashes Germany over gas pipeline deal, calls it Russia's 'captive'"U.S. President Donald Trump launched a sharp public attack on Germany on Wednesday for supporting a Baltic Sea gas pipeline deal with Russia, saying Berlin had become “a captive to Russia” and he criticized it for failing to raise defense spending more."Secretary of State Blinken in 2022 after the pipeline sabotage: “It’s a tremendous opportunity to once and for all remove the dependence on Russian energy and thus to take away from Vladimir Putin the weaponization of energy as a means of advancing his imperial designs. That’s very significant and that offers tremendous strategic opportunity for the years to come, but meanwhile we’re determined to do everything we possibly can to make sure the consequences of all of this are not borne by citizens in our countries or, for that matter, around the world.”seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream----------------------- So it's clear based on the history of US-German disagreements on the Russian pipelines that the destruction of the pipelines worked in our favor in terms of the long-term US objectives in that region. Some of you doubt that our leaders are ruthless enough to do this to an ally. I understand that sentiment. I simply disagree. I think some of our leaders would do something like this if they felt they could get away with it. And for me, it has nothing to do with political parties. There's very little daylight between D's and Rs on foreign policy. The different parties just use different rhetoric (to appeal to different constituencies) but share the same broad foreign policy objectives.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Feb 8, 2023 21:32:45 GMT -5
It makes zero sense on the economic side either. Putin was already shutting down the pipelines to punish Germany and Europe for getting involved in Ukraine. Putin blowing them up out of spite is closer to Occam's Razor than the US destroying something that had become functionally irrelevant. It makes zero sense for Putin to destroy pipelines that Russia partially owned, spent billions to construct, and that Putin could shut off any time he wanted. Anything is possible but Russia is at the bottom of possible suspects due to the lack of a motive (or evidence). Investigators so far have found no evidence of Russian involvement. Dec 2022 - World leaders were quick to blame Moscow for explosions along the undersea natural gas pipelines. But some Western officials now doubt the Kremlin was responsible"...after months of investigation, numerous officials privately say that Russia may not be to blame after all for the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines.
“There is no evidence at this point that Russia was behind the sabotage,” said one European official, echoing the assessment of 23 diplomatic and intelligence officials in nine countries interviewed in recent weeks".February 4th - German top official says no evidence of Russian sabotage of Nord Stream pipeline The US does have some extra gas capacity now, but certainly not enough to make up the difference here. Getting Germany to reduce their dependence on Russian oil and gas has been a long-term objective of the US Foreign Policy establishment. What's the unwritten objective of NATO? " To keep the US in Europe and Russia out". 2008 - German-US Tensions Grow Over Baltic Pipeline"When it comes to Russia, politicians in Washington generally view Germany with suspicion. They accuse the Germans of being so dependent on Russian gas that they don't dare speak their mind to the Russian strongman, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin. But the Baltic States, Poland and the Scandinavians are also uneasy about the pipeline. They are afraid that Moscow and Berlin have made a special deal".2018 - Trump lashes Germany over gas pipeline deal, calls it Russia's 'captive'Secretary of State Blinken in 2022 after the pipeline sabotage: “It’s a tremendous opportunity to once and for all remove the dependence on Russian energy and thus to take away from Vladimir Putin the weaponization of energy as a means of advancing his imperial designs. That’s very significant and that offers tremendous strategic opportunity for the years to come, but meanwhile we’re determined to do everything we possibly can to make sure the consequences of all of this are not borne by citizens in our countries or, for that matter, around the world.”seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-streamSo it's clear based on the history of US-German disagreements on the Russian pipelines that the destruction of the pipelines worked in our favor in terms of the long-term US objectives in that region. Some of you doubt that our leaders are ruthless enough to do this to an ally. I understand that sentiment. I simply disagree. I think some of our leaders would do something like this if they felt they could get away with it. And for me, it has nothing to do with political parties. There's very little daylight between D's and Rs on foreign policy. The different parties just use different rhetoric (to appeal to different constituencies) but share the same broad foreign policy objectives. Russia's motive has already been explained. You've noted that Putin shut off the gas - because it cripples the German industrial sector and punishes it for its involvement in Ukraine. Blowing up the pipeline is just the exclamation point on that act. The motive is the same. If this act of terrorism is traced back to Biden, that's not ruthless. It's suicidal. Even I don't think our leader - even the demented, corrupt old coot that he is - is THAT stupid. And I think Biden is incredibly stupid.
|
|
|
Post by JoyinMudville on Feb 8, 2023 21:34:21 GMT -5
Feel like everyone is overlooking a really simple possible explanation. It could be that Germany knew. I was thinking the same thing as Biden made those remarks after a meeting with the German leader
|
|
|
Post by JoyinMudville on Feb 8, 2023 21:40:13 GMT -5
Occam's Razor The Biden administration wouldn't do something that, if discovered, would tear apart NATO and lead to anti-American protests throughout Germany at a time when were desperately trying to bring the alliance together and needed Germany's support on sanctions and military aid to Ukraine. Furthermore, we had already secured commitments from Germany on the very subject of the pipelines. Just doesn't make sense - conspiracy mongers not withstanding. Good people sometimes do bad things when they convince themselves that it’s for a good cause. And there are ways for governments to do things that give them plausible deniability. That’s an area that the CIA excels at most of the time. For example, I believe Colin Powell was a generally good person yet he lied through his teeth when he did that UN presentation about Iraq’s non-existent WMDs. Around the same time, Bob Mueller lied about an Iraq role in the Anthrax letters that were going around. There are some ruthless people in Biden’s administration like Victoria Nuland (who said F* the EU in a diplomatic phone conversation) and Jake Sullivan (who gleefully said “Al Qaeda is on our side in Syria” in a leaked email). Biden doesn’t have only honorable or morally flawless people in his inner circle. I’ll grant you that Sy Hersh has a mixed record since breaking the My Lai massacre and Abu Ghraib stories but there are enough specific details in his article that others should be able to corroborate or debunk his claim. None of what you’re going on about has anything to do with my comment. Biden is an Atlanticist and is about as pro NATO as you’re going to get. It doesn’t make sense to do something that, if discovered, would, at the very least create a fissure in the alliance at the very moment we’re doing a full court press to bring the alliance together.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Feb 8, 2023 22:13:55 GMT -5
Good people sometimes do bad things when they convince themselves that it’s for a good cause. And there are ways for governments to do things that give them plausible deniability. That’s an area that the CIA excels at most of the time. For example, I believe Colin Powell was a generally good person yet he lied through his teeth when he did that UN presentation about Iraq’s non-existent WMDs. Around the same time, Bob Mueller lied about an Iraq role in the Anthrax letters that were going around. There are some ruthless people in Biden’s administration like Victoria Nuland (who said F* the EU in a diplomatic phone conversation) and Jake Sullivan (who gleefully said “Al Qaeda is on our side in Syria” in a leaked email). Biden doesn’t have only honorable or morally flawless people in his inner circle. I’ll grant you that Sy Hersh has a mixed record since breaking the My Lai massacre and Abu Ghraib stories but there are enough specific details in his article that others should be able to corroborate or debunk his claim. None of what you’re going on about has anything to do with my comment. Biden is an Atlanticist and is about as pro NATO as you’re going to get. It doesn’t make sense to do something that, if discovered, would, at the very least create a fissure in the alliance at the very moment we’re doing a full court press to bring the alliance together. See my response to RJ. All the international pressure on Germany (over all other countries) to send tanks to Ukraine makes sense in the context of US officials and other European countries trying to prevent Germany and Russia from ever doing business again. Germany has long been viewed as a "weak link" in the NATO alliance due to their economic ties to Russia. Trump got a lot of grief in the media here for publicly criticizing Angela Merkel a few years ago but what he was saying is consistent with things said about the relations between Russia and Germany going back at least the last two decades. 2018 - Trump slams Germany at NATO summit: It’s ‘totally controlled by Russia’
"Speaking in Brussels, Belgium on the first leg of his European trip, the U.S. president said a flurry of oil and gas deals had given Moscow far too much influence over the continent’s largest economy. In particular, he singled out the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline project as being especially “inappropriate.”
“Germany is totally controlled by Russia … They will be getting between 60 and 70 percent of their energy from Russia and a new pipeline, and you tell me if that is appropriate because I think it’s not,” Trump said, before criticizing Berlin’s failure to significantly increase defense spending..."-------------------------- On Jimmy Jazz's comment, yes, I've considered that it might've been the Greens or some group in Germany that opposes the pipeline. The Green party in Germany is Liberal but very hawkish on foreign policy and anti-Putin. I don't know who did it or how it happened but the US in coordination with some of our European allies seems like the most likely suspect. Anne Applebaum's husband - Former Polish foreign minister thanks US for damaging Nord Stream pipeline
|
|
|
Post by JoyinMudville on Feb 8, 2023 22:31:44 GMT -5
All the international pressure on Germany (over all other countries) to send tanks to Ukraine makes sense in the context of US officials and other European countries trying to prevent Germany and Russia from ever doing business again. Germany has long been viewed as a "weak link" in the NATO alliance due to their economic ties to Russia. Trump got a lot of grief in the media here for publicly criticizing Angela Merkel a few years ago but what he was saying is consistent with things said about the relations between Russia and Germany going back at least the last two decades. It makes sense because 1. They're the best tanks in Europe and easier to maintain than the Abrams 2. Eastern European countries needed Germany's ok to send the tanks 3. Ukraine needs the tanks Occam's razor 4. Biden is not Trump
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Feb 9, 2023 8:32:22 GMT -5
All the international pressure on Germany (over all other countries) to send tanks to Ukraine makes sense in the context of US officials and other European countries trying to prevent Germany and Russia from ever doing business again. Germany has long been viewed as a "weak link" in the NATO alliance due to their economic ties to Russia. Trump got a lot of grief in the media here for publicly criticizing Angela Merkel a few years ago but what he was saying is consistent with things said about the relations between Russia and Germany going back at least the last two decades. It makes sense because 1. They're the best tanks in Europe and easier to maintain than the Abrams 2. Eastern European countries needed Germany's ok to send the tanks 3. Ukraine needs the tanks Occam's razor 4. Biden is not Trump Biden's foreign policies towards Germany are broadly the same as Trump's. He just didn't publicly humiliate the Germans as much as Trump did. I'm not sure about the Obama years but as I noted earlier, the attempt to separate Germany from Russia go as far back as the Bush II administration...
|
|
|
Post by Jimmy Jazz on Feb 9, 2023 15:56:24 GMT -5
At this point I would bet the US did it. The extent to which the other key players in NATO knew is all I’m not sure about.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Feb 9, 2023 16:09:16 GMT -5
At this point I would bet the US did it. The extent to which the other key players in NATO knew is all I’m not sure about. I would love for my suspicions to be proven wrong. But yeah, there aren't many suspects that had the motive, means, and opportunity to do industrial sabotage at this scale without getting caught. The US is definitely one of the suspects but I'm open to other theories. What we know so far about Germany's current leader, Olaf Sholz, is that he's not as tough as Angela Merkel was. She was the defacto leader of the EU when she was in charge and stood her ground against US pressure through several Presidential administrations. Not sure if Sholz would do anything to confront or retaliate against the US if they have evidence of a US role in the pipeline sabotage. I doubt Germany would throw the US military out of Germany or make a big fuss out of it.
|
|
|
Post by WKDWZD on Feb 9, 2023 18:20:43 GMT -5
At this point I would bet the US did it. The extent to which the other key players in NATO knew is all I’m not sure about. I had the US down as my #1 suspect from the very beginning, nothing since has changed my mind.
|
|
|
Post by JoyinMudville on Feb 9, 2023 19:38:39 GMT -5
It doesn't make sense to me. Too much risk and the timing, 'Germany had already halted NordStream II' and Russia had cut the pipeline, seems off.
Basically, western Europe lucked out with a winter that has been far milder than normal and this, plus a concerted effort to find alternative sources of liquified natural gas means that their natural gas supplies are pretty healthy. However, it could have gone the other way and if worth got out that the United States sabotaged a main natural gas line which led to widespread suffering deprivation and death in western Europe, you're talking a major rift in the alliance and the risk of undercutting all that Biden has achieved vis a vis sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine. Furthermore, you can be sure that Russian assets and their useful idiots would be stirring up demonstrations in Germany and elsewhere.
Biden has played this incredibly well. This strikes me as an insane gamble.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Feb 15, 2023 13:17:05 GMT -5
The Sy Hersh article about the Nord Stream sabotage is beginning to make waves in Europe and Russia (no official statement from the German government though)
|
|
|
Post by ivanbalt on Feb 15, 2023 14:29:14 GMT -5
Well if Russia is on board with the story it has to be true.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Feb 15, 2023 14:41:11 GMT -5
Well if Russia is on board with the story it has to be true. Of course Russia is going to try to amplify it. Why wouldn’t they? It will be interesting to see how this plays out in Europe. Specifically German politics after one German MP has already spoken out about it. Even if Hersh’s article has some inaccuracies, the comment from Victoria Nuland about how she was “happy that the pipeline is a hunk of metal at the bottom of the sea” is a pretty crappy thing to say about an act of war against an ally’s infrastructure. So the speculation that the US was involved will persist until the investigators identify who did it…
|
|
|
Post by JoyinMudville on Feb 15, 2023 14:50:19 GMT -5
Well if Russia is on board with the story it has to be true. Of course Russia is going to try to amplify it. Why wouldn’t they? It will be interesting to see how this plays out in Europe. Specifically German politics after one German MP has already spoken out about it. And again, this is why it is hard to imagine that the Biden administration would have decided that this was a smart thing to do. What's interesting is that I guarantee there are national security reporters poking around this story and none of them seem to have been able to find any corroboration of Hersch's story... yet
|
|