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Post by pickle20 on Nov 13, 2023 8:50:16 GMT -5
IMO both sides have segments that have revealed themselves for what they really are and I don't want to be lumped in with either of them.
It's ugly and frankly something I don't want to be a part of which is why I have pretty much stayed away from this for the last week.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 13, 2023 9:03:45 GMT -5
IMO both sides have segments that have revealed themselves for what they really are and I don't want to be lumped in with either of them. It's ugly and frankly something I don't want to be a part of which is why I have pretty much stayed away from this for the last week. I understand. This is a very emotionally polarizing topic so discussions can get nasty quickly. But attempts to conflate all criticism of Israel with anti-semitism began long before October 7th. And that's one reason I pushback so hard against attempts to do that. The other reason is because I strongly support freedom of expression or freedom of thought...
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Post by soulflower on Nov 13, 2023 10:52:49 GMT -5
More "hateful" protests today in cities around the US
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 13, 2023 16:43:02 GMT -5
I'm not going to respond to some random schmuck's tweet but here's a thing to consider. "From the River to the Sea" reminds me a bit of "Defund the Police". If you find yourself constantly having to explain to alienated people that your slogan/rallying cry does not mean what the words literally say, it's a lousy slogan and it is hurting your cause.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 13, 2023 16:46:10 GMT -5
I thought this comment was interesting and it doesn't just apply to TikTok, it explains a lot of what we see happening on Twitter as well
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Post by soulflower on Nov 13, 2023 16:56:51 GMT -5
I'm not going to respond to some random schmuck's tweet but here's a thing to consider. "From the River to the Sea" reminds me a bit of "Defund the Police". If you find yourself constantly having to explain to alienated people that your slogan/rallying cry does mean what the words literally say, it's a lousy slogan and it is hurting your cause. It reminds me of "Black Lives Matter", which offended some people. And critics frequently omit the "Palestine will be free" part of the River to the Sea slogan. If you're offended by equality for oppressed people, maybe the problem is "you", not those who are protesting and calling for freedom and equality for the Palestinians...
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 13, 2023 17:03:21 GMT -5
I'm not going to respond to some random schmuck's tweet but here's a thing to consider. "From the River to the Sea" reminds me a bit of "Defund the Police". If you find yourself constantly having to explain to alienated people that your slogan/rallying cry does mean what the words literally say, it's a lousy slogan and it is hurting your cause. It reminds me of "Black Lives Matter", which offended some people. And critics frequently omit the "Palestine will be free" part of the River to the Sea slogan. If you're offended by equality for oppressed people, maybe the problem is "you", not those who are protesting and calling for freedom and equality for the Palestinians... I am not offended by the idea of equality for oppressed people. Reading for comprehension is such a critical skill. You need to work on it. Adding 'Palestine will be free" to the slogan doesn't change the meaning, if anything it reinforces the implication that the slogan means that its proponents are calling for the elimination of the state of Israel. Again, like 'Defund the Police', if you are spending all of your time trying to explain why your statements, slogans, and rallying cries don't mean what the words actually mean, then you need to be more careful in your use of language and you should find a better slogan.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 13, 2023 17:19:19 GMT -5
It reminds me of "Black Lives Matter", which offended some people. And critics frequently omit the "Palestine will be free" part of the River to the Sea slogan. If you're offended by equality for oppressed people, maybe the problem is "you", not those who are protesting and calling for freedom and equality for the Palestinians... I am not offended by the idea of equality for oppressed people. Reading for comprehension is such a critical skill. You need to work on it. Adding 'Palestine will be free" to the slogan doesn't change the meaning, if anything it reinforces the implication that the slogan means that its proponents are calling for the elimination of the state of Israel. Words mean whatever the person saying the words intends for them to mean. For example, if I say "I want peace on Earth", some could take the worse possible interpretation of that and accuse me of saying I want to get peace on Earth via wiping out all humans. Or you can ask me what I mean (something critics of those using the phrase could themselves do) and I would happily explain how I envision peace of Earth to be achieved. I'm certain that 95% of the people chanting the "From the river to the sea" slogan support freedom and equality for Palestinians, not the destruction of Israel. I don't care what the ADL says. They're not unbiased and they have a pro-Israel agenda. Hence why they attack Jews who criticize Israel. Millions of people all over the world are rallying in support of the Palestinians and criticizing Israel. To any objective person, it's Israel that has the messaging problem, not the activists who are successfully rallying the world in support of their cause...
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Post by summer23 on Nov 13, 2023 17:37:03 GMT -5
I am not offended by the idea of equality for oppressed people. Reading for comprehension is such a critical skill. You need to work on it. Adding 'Palestine will be free" to the slogan doesn't change the meaning, if anything it reinforces the implication that the slogan means that its proponents are calling for the elimination of the state of Israel. Words mean whatever the person saying the words intends for them to mean. For example, if I say "I want peace on Earth", some could take the worse possible interpretation of that and accuse me of saying I want to get peace on Earth via wiping out all humans. Or you can ask me what I mean (something critics of those using the phrase could themselves do) and I would happily explain how I envision peace of Earth to be achieved. I'm certain that 95% of the people chanting the "From the river to the sea" slogan support freedom and equality for Palestinians, not the destruction of Israel. I don't care what the ADL says. They're not unbiased and they have a pro-Israel agenda. Hence why they attack Jews who criticize Israel. Millions of people all over the world are rallying in support of the Palestinians and criticizing Israel. To any objective person, it's Israel that has the messaging problem, not the activists who are successfully rallying the world in support of their cause... Or, as I read recently, what the phrase means depends on who is telling the story — and which audience is hearing it. There is a reason that people become upset when they here "pro-Palestine" protesters chant these words. SLOGAN ADOPTED BY HAMAS “From the river to the sea” echoes through pro-Palestinian rallies across campuses and cities, adopted by some as a call for a single state on the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean." Now study a map.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 13, 2023 17:41:03 GMT -5
Words mean whatever the person saying the words intends for them to mean. For example, if I say "I want peace on Earth", some could take the worse possible interpretation of that and accuse me of saying I want to get peace on Earth via wiping out all humans. Or you can ask me what I mean (something critics of those using the phrase could themselves do) and I would happily explain how I envision peace of Earth to be achieved. I'm certain that 95% of the people chanting the "From the river to the sea" slogan support freedom and equality for Palestinians, not the destruction of Israel. I don't care what the ADL says. They're not unbiased and they have a pro-Israel agenda. Hence why they attack Jews who criticize Israel. Millions of people all over the world are rallying in support of the Palestinians and criticizing Israel. To any objective person, it's Israel that has the messaging problem, not the activists who are successfully rallying the world in support of their cause... Or, as I read recently, what the phrase means depends on who is telling the story — and which audience is hearing it. There is a reason that people become upset when they here "pro-Palestine" protesters chant these words. SLOGAN ADOPTED BY HAMAS “From the river to the sea” echoes through pro-Palestinian rallies across campuses and cities, adopted by some as a call for a single state on the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean." I get it but there's more than one interpretation. It's not an unambiguously offensive phrase (ie "Jews will not replace us"). You're being biased and selective by focusing on the worst-case interpretation and ignoring what the activists who use the slogan say. Most, like me, say they want freedom and equality for the Palestinians. Unless you're a Likudnik like Netanyahu, equality between all people in Israel and Palestine shouldn't be offensive or threatening... Funny you should mention that given that Netanyahu and his far-right allies erase Palestinian territories from their maps of Israel... Netanyahu under fire for using Greater Land of Israel map at UN
www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-760189
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 13, 2023 18:29:05 GMT -5
I am not offended by the idea of equality for oppressed people. Reading for comprehension is such a critical skill. You need to work on it. Adding 'Palestine will be free" to the slogan doesn't change the meaning, if anything it reinforces the implication that the slogan means that its proponents are calling for the elimination of the state of Israel. Words mean whatever the person saying the words intends for them to mean. For example, if I say "I want peace on Earth", some could take the worse possible interpretation of that and accuse me of saying I want to get peace on Earth via wiping out all humans. Or you can ask me what I mean (something critics of those using the phrase could themselves do) and I would happily explain how I envision peace of Earth to be achieved. I'm certain that 95% of the people chanting the "From the river to the sea" slogan support freedom and equality for Palestinians, not the destruction of Israel. I don't care what the ADL says. They're not unbiased and they have a pro-Israel agenda. Hence why they attack Jews who criticize Israel. Millions of people all over the world are rallying in support of the Palestinians and criticizing Israel. To any objective person, it's Israel that has the messaging problem, not the activists who are successfully rallying the world in support of their cause... 1. I didn't bring up the ADL nor do I really pay attention to what they say, so I don't know why you brought them up 2. Words actually do have meaning. They have etymologies and definitions. It is how we communicate. Your statement is preposterous PREPOSTEROUS - adjective : contrary to nature, reason, or common sense : ABSURD 3. There's a reason we have dictionaries. I strongly urge you to buy one. 4. It is why, despite you assertions otherwise, we should be specific with the words we use.
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Post by summer23 on Nov 13, 2023 18:33:23 GMT -5
Or, as I read recently, what the phrase means depends on who is telling the story — and which audience is hearing it. There is a reason that people become upset when they here "pro-Palestine" protesters chant these words. SLOGAN ADOPTED BY HAMAS “From the river to the sea” echoes through pro-Palestinian rallies across campuses and cities, adopted by some as a call for a single state on the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean." I get it but there's more than one interpretation. It's not an unambiguously offensive phrase (ie "Jews will not replace us"). You're being biased and selective by focusing on the worst-case interpretation and ignoring what the activists who use the slogan say. Most, like me, say they want freedom and equality for the Palestinians. Unless you're a Likudnik like Netanyahu, equality between all people in Israel and Palestine shouldn't be offensive or threatening... Funny you should mention that given that Netanyahu and his far-right allies erase Palestinian territories from their maps of Israel... Netanyahu under fire for using Greater Land of Israel map at UN
www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-760189 Well, you would certainly know what biases look like, wouldn't you? Oh wait. Your biases are better than my biases. My bad. 
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Post by soulflower on Nov 13, 2023 18:36:34 GMT -5
Words mean whatever the person saying the words intends for them to mean. For example, if I say "I want peace on Earth", some could take the worse possible interpretation of that and accuse me of saying I want to get peace on Earth via wiping out all humans. Or you can ask me what I mean (something critics of those using the phrase could themselves do) and I would happily explain how I envision peace of Earth to be achieved. I'm certain that 95% of the people chanting the "From the river to the sea" slogan support freedom and equality for Palestinians, not the destruction of Israel. I don't care what the ADL says. They're not unbiased and they have a pro-Israel agenda. Hence why they attack Jews who criticize Israel. Millions of people all over the world are rallying in support of the Palestinians and criticizing Israel. To any objective person, it's Israel that has the messaging problem, not the activists who are successfully rallying the world in support of their cause... 1. I didn't bring up the ADL nor do I really pay attention to what they say, so I don't know why you brought them up 2. Words actually do have meaning. They have etymologies and definitions. It is how we communicate. Your statement is preposterous What you say about the phrase applies equally to both sides in this instance. You're overlooking that part. You have to explain why "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is offensive because on the surface, it doesn't sound offensive at all. It's ambiguous enough that it means whatever the person using the phrase intends for it to mean...
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Post by WKDWZD on Nov 13, 2023 18:38:00 GMT -5
It reminds me of "Black Lives Matter", which offended some people. And critics frequently omit the "Palestine will be free" part of the River to the Sea slogan. If you're offended by equality for oppressed people, maybe the problem is "you", not those who are protesting and calling for freedom and equality for the Palestinians... I am not offended by the idea of equality for oppressed people. Reading for comprehension is such a critical skill. You need to work on it. Adding 'Palestine will be free" to the slogan doesn't change the meaning, if anything it reinforces the implication that the slogan means that its proponents are calling for the elimination of the state of Israel. Again, like 'Defund the Police', if you are spending all of your time trying to explain why your statements, slogans, and rallying cries don't mean what the words actually mean, then you need to be more careful in your use of language and you should find a better slogan. You can interpret "from the river to the sea" any way you want to, and you clearly want to see that as the elimination of Israel. I don't see it that way at all. To me it is merely a slogan for freedom from oppression. They could create another neutral slogan but it would only be a matter of weeks before the ADL designated that new slogan as a death threat to Israel.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 13, 2023 18:39:24 GMT -5
I'm sure WKD will appreciate this hilarious Tiktok video from last weekend's protest in London  |
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 13, 2023 18:47:23 GMT -5
I am not offended by the idea of equality for oppressed people. Reading for comprehension is such a critical skill. You need to work on it. Adding 'Palestine will be free" to the slogan doesn't change the meaning, if anything it reinforces the implication that the slogan means that its proponents are calling for the elimination of the state of Israel. Again, like 'Defund the Police', if you are spending all of your time trying to explain why your statements, slogans, and rallying cries don't mean what the words actually mean, then you need to be more careful in your use of language and you should find a better slogan. You can interpret "from the river to the sea" any way you want to, and you clearly want to see that as the elimination of Israel. I don't see it that way at all. To me it is merely a slogan for freedom of oppression. They could create another neutral slogan but it would only be a matter of weeks before the ADL designated that new slogan as a death threat to Israel. Justice for Palestinians always worked for me. Right of return certainly made sense
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Post by WKDWZD on Nov 13, 2023 18:50:20 GMT -5
I'm sure WKD will appreciate this hilarious Tiktok video from last weekend's protest in London Yep, a good one. 
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Post by soulflower on Nov 13, 2023 22:38:30 GMT -5
Netanyahu is a victim of his own policy of empowering Hamas. No one is criticizing Netanyahu currently more than the Israelis themselves. Not only is he partly responsible for the political and security environment that led up to 10/7, he has rejected opportunities to get the hostages released. CBS News: Netanyahu faces rising anger from within Israel after Hamas attackBecause I live in the real world, not a Hollywood Action movie. Negotiating with Hamas is the best way to get the hostages freed alive. Sorry, but no. Negotiations with terrorist organizations over hostages usually only leads to more hostage taking. That's the real world. Not your fantasy land where Hamas is a reliable peace partner.
Israel and Hamas are close to a hostage deal that would free most of the Israeli women and children who were kidnapped Oct. 7, according to a high-ranking Israeli official. The agreement could be announced within days if final details are resolved, he said.
“The general outline of the deal is understood,” the Israeli official explained in an interview Monday, requesting anonymity to discuss the sensitive subject. The tentative agreement calls for Israeli women and children to be released in groups, simultaneously with Palestinian women and young people held in Israeli prisons.
Israel wants the release of all 100 women and children taken from Israel, but the initial number is likely to be smaller. Hamas has indicated it is ready to release 70 women and children, according to a statement by one of its officials on the group’s Telegram channel cited by Reuters on Monday. The number of Palestinian women and young people who might be released is unclear, but an Arab official told me last week that there were at least 120 in prison.
A temporary cease-fire of perhaps five days would accompany the exchange of hostages and prisoners, the Israeli official said. This truce would allow safe travel for the Israeli captives. It could also permit more international assistance to Palestinian civilians in Gaza and should ease the humanitarian crisis there, the Israeli official explained.
President Biden voiced strong U.S. support for a hostage deal in a call Sunday expressing personal “appreciation” to the emir of Qatar, Tamim bin Hamad al-Thani, whose nation has acted as mediator with Hamas. “The two leaders agreed that all hostages must be released without further delay,” a White House statement said.www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/13/israel-hamas-hostage-deal-qatar-talks/If the details are accurate, Israel and Hamas are close to a deal for some of the hostages. So much for not negotiating with Hamas. |
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Post by Ranger John on Nov 14, 2023 7:33:53 GMT -5
Sorry, but no. Negotiations with terrorist organizations over hostages usually only leads to more hostage taking. That's the real world. Not your fantasy land where Hamas is a reliable peace partner.
Israel and Hamas are close to a hostage deal that would free most of the Israeli women and children who were kidnapped Oct. 7, according to a high-ranking Israeli official. The agreement could be announced within days if final details are resolved, he said.
“The general outline of the deal is understood,” the Israeli official explained in an interview Monday, requesting anonymity to discuss the sensitive subject. The tentative agreement calls for Israeli women and children to be released in groups, simultaneously with Palestinian women and young people held in Israeli prisons.
Israel wants the release of all 100 women and children taken from Israel, but the initial number is likely to be smaller. Hamas has indicated it is ready to release 70 women and children, according to a statement by one of its officials on the group’s Telegram channel cited by Reuters on Monday. The number of Palestinian women and young people who might be released is unclear, but an Arab official told me last week that there were at least 120 in prison.
A temporary cease-fire of perhaps five days would accompany the exchange of hostages and prisoners, the Israeli official said. This truce would allow safe travel for the Israeli captives. It could also permit more international assistance to Palestinian civilians in Gaza and should ease the humanitarian crisis there, the Israeli official explained.
President Biden voiced strong U.S. support for a hostage deal in a call Sunday expressing personal “appreciation” to the emir of Qatar, Tamim bin Hamad al-Thani, whose nation has acted as mediator with Hamas. “The two leaders agreed that all hostages must be released without further delay,” a White House statement said.www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/13/israel-hamas-hostage-deal-qatar-talks/If the details are accurate, Israel and Hamas are close to a deal for some of the hostages. So much for not negotiating with Hamas. We'll see what the terms are, but my point stands. This sort of thing only encourages hostage taking. |
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Post by summer23 on Nov 14, 2023 8:08:30 GMT -5
Will be interesting to see how the march in D.C. today goes. Hopefully, all remain calm. Counter-protests are for certain. D.C. could be a hot mess.
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 14, 2023 8:55:58 GMT -5
Guess nobody has to work today.
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Post by msmaggie on Nov 14, 2023 8:56:38 GMT -5
Will be interesting to see how the march in D.C. today goes. Hopefully, all remain calm. Counter-protests are for certain. D.C. could be a hot mess. Yeah. Could be bad. Pro Israel demonstrations have been peaceful. Can't say the same for some of the pro Palestinian ones. Hope there is a big police presence. |
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Post by summer23 on Nov 14, 2023 8:59:56 GMT -5
Guess nobody has to work today. We have vacation time. I have 130 hours to use before January 1st.
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Post by alienrace on Nov 14, 2023 9:12:19 GMT -5
There is an inordinate amount of pressure on young people to have, or be part of a "cause" since the 1960's. It has gotten for more intense in the last decade or so.
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Post by Jimmy Jazz on Nov 14, 2023 9:13:27 GMT -5
Words mean whatever the person saying the words intends for them to mean. Alice and Humpty Dumpty had a whole conversation about this in Through The Looking Glass. Regardless of where one falls in their disagreement, I think it’s basic decency that when a large group finds something one is saying deeply offensive, rather than explain to them why they’re all wrong, one should simply stop saying it. Other recent examples would include the renaming of certain sports teams and the redesign of flags featuring confederate symbolism. Regardless of how much people said, ‘but we’re honoring the Indians’ and, ‘heritage not hate’ it turned out we were, I think rightfully, less concerned with their intended meaning and far more concerned with meaning perceived by large groups who found them offensive. This speaks in part to why American Jews feel let down by the left. Which other group, when it says it is deeply offended by something, is essentially told by the left ‘too bad, don’t care’? I saw a comment on a NYTimes story the other day that I thought summed this up pretty well. |
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 14, 2023 9:14:19 GMT -5
There is an inordinate amount of pressure on young people to have, or be part of a "cause" since the 1960's. It has gotten for more intense in the last decade or so. I don't think this was true in the 90s when I was growing up. Feels like there was a lull between the 60s and the 00s.
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 14, 2023 9:15:55 GMT -5
Words mean whatever the person saying the words intends for them to mean. Alice and Humpty Dumpty had a whole conversation about this in Through The Looking Glass. Regardless of where one falls in their disagreement, I think it’s basic decency that when a large group finds something one is saying deeply offensive, rather than explain to them why they’re all wrong, one should simply stop saying it. Other recent examples would include the renaming of certain sports teams and the redesign of flags featuring confederate symbolism. Regardless of how much people said, ‘but we’re honoring the Indians’ and, ‘heritage not hate’ it turned out we were, I think rightfully, less concerned with their intended meaning and far more concerned with meaning perceived by large groups who found them offensive. This speaks in part to why American Jews feel let down by the left. Which other group, when it says it is deeply offended by something, is essentially told by the left ‘too bad, don’t care’? I saw a comment on a NYTimes story the other day that I thought summed this up pretty well. This conflict is proving many people to be hypocrites and lack any consistent morals and beliefs. It's all a chess game to them.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 14, 2023 9:23:20 GMT -5
Words mean whatever the person saying the words intends for them to mean. Alice and Humpty Dumpty had a whole conversation about this in Through The Looking Glass. Regardless of where one falls in their disagreement, I think it’s basic decency that when a large group finds something one is saying deeply offensive, rather than explain to them why they’re all wrong, one should simply stop saying it. Other recent examples would include the renaming of certain sports teams and the redesign of flags featuring confederate symbolism. Regardless of how much people said, ‘but we’re honoring the Indians’ and, ‘heritage not hate’ it turned out we were, I think rightfully, less concerned with their intended meaning and far more concerned with meaning perceived by large groups who found them offensive. This speaks in part to why American Jews feel let down by the left. Which other group, when it says it is deeply offended by something, is essentially told by the left ‘too bad, don’t care’? I saw a comment on a NYTimes story the other day that I thought summed this up pretty well. Broadly I agree but why shouldn’t the Palestinians get a vote in this debate? Aren’t you de-humanizing Palestinians by not considering how they feel about the slogan? We’re only allowed to consider how one side feels about it? So we’re back to choosing sides. And it’s complicated by the fact that many pro-Palestine or anti-Zionist activists are Jewish themselves. So who should I listen to? - Palestinians and Jews who aren’t offended by the slogan “Palestine will be free, from the river to the sea” and say it’s about freedom and not Israel’s destruction? or - pro-Israel Jews who are sensitive about civil rights for Palestinians because of their emotional and political connections to Israel and their desire for it to maintain its identity as a Jewish state? |
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Post by alienrace on Nov 14, 2023 9:49:05 GMT -5
There is an inordinate amount of pressure on young people to have, or be part of a "cause" since the 1960's. It has gotten for more intense in the last decade or so. I don't think this was true in the 90s when I was growing up. Feels like there was a lull between the 60s and the 00s. You might be right about that. I didn't see too much of it in the 80's either, but I do remember my older cousins in the 70's in that mindset. Now though, the moment you set foot on a college campus you're bombarded with it. Now I expected that at NYU where my middle child went, but at G-Town? That kind of blew my mind.
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 14, 2023 9:56:37 GMT -5
College activism doesn't bother me. College is when people are supposed to find out who they are. And what people believe in college isn't always what they believe for the rest of their life.
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