|
Post by pickle20 on Oct 23, 2023 14:58:16 GMT -5
'The left has really let us down.' Why many American Jews feel abandoned www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-left-has-really-let-us-down-why-many-american-jews-feel-abandoned/ar-AA1iGMxqMuch of the pro-Palestinian protests and rhetoric has absolutely come at the expense of dead Jews. It is hypocritical to place one people above another when it comes to the tragedy of their deaths. Which is why I have vehemently condemned the disgusting Hamas attacks on Jewish people while calling for a response that avoids taking more innocent lives from people in Gaza. People from any political corner should condemn the Hamas attacks on innocent civilians and concert goers.
|
|
|
Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 23, 2023 15:16:32 GMT -5
'The left has really let us down.' Why many American Jews feel abandoned www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-left-has-really-let-us-down-why-many-american-jews-feel-abandoned/ar-AA1iGMxqMuch of the pro-Palestinian protests and rhetoric has absolutely come at the expense of dead Jews. It is hypocritical to place one people above another when it comes to the tragedy of their deaths. Which is why I have vehemently condemned the disgusting Hamas attacks on Jewish people while calling for a response that avoids taking more innocent lives from people in Gaza. People from any political corner should condemn the Hamas attacks on innocent civilians and concert goers. I haven't been posting them because I generally don't believe in doxxing people but there are so many videos out there of people pulling signs down about individual kidnapped Israelis and then getting confronted about it. It's disturbing.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 23, 2023 15:18:50 GMT -5
The fact that most on the Left view Israel as a settler/colonizer/apartheid state explains their response, not antisemitism.
“The Left” includes many American Jews who view Israel as an apartheid state.
Most people should know or understand that not all Israelis are Jewish and not all Jews support or identify with the modern (not biblical)state of Israel.
|
|
|
Post by alienrace on Oct 23, 2023 15:26:54 GMT -5
There's been a pretty concerted effort in universities to push pro-Palestinian rhetoric. I've personally seen quite a bit of it. Unfortunately, this agenda has either been presented as, or manifested itself as also being rather anti-Israeli or anti-semetic. There seems to be a pretty strong age demarcation line, with some exceptions of course when it comes to it.
I don't know how anyone can frame (with a straight face) pro-Palestinian demonstrations as anything else besides supporting the Hamas attacks, as these of course began prior to Israel's response. When I hear with my own two ears "But Mo-om, what Israel has been doing the Palestinians for years is horrible", the day of the Hamas attacks, I read that as making justification for it, and I can't interpret that as anything else.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 23, 2023 15:34:14 GMT -5
There's been a pretty concerted effort in universities to push pro-Palestinian rhetoric. I've personally seen quite a bit of it. Unfortunately, this agenda has either been presented as, or manifested itself as also being rather anti-Israeli or anti-semetic. There seems to be a pretty strong age demarcation line, with some exceptions of course when it comes to it. I don't know how anyone can frame (with a straight face) pro-Palestinian demonstrations as anything else besides supporting the Hamas attacks, as these of course began prior to Israel's response. When I hear with my own two ears "But Mo-om, what Israel has been doing the Palestinians for years is horrible", the day of the Hamas attacks, I read that as making justification for it, and I can't interpret that as anything else. When young people see the injustices that Palestinians deal with, what do you expect them to do? Support Israel's oppression? We can quibble over the lack of nuance or sensitivity in some of the things student activists have said since October 7th, but in the big picture, young people throughout history have opposed injustices around the world. This is nothing new...
|
|
|
Post by WKDWZD on Oct 23, 2023 16:56:01 GMT -5
There's been a pretty concerted effort in universities to push pro-Palestinian rhetoric. I've personally seen quite a bit of it. Unfortunately, this agenda has either been presented as, or manifested itself as also being rather anti-Israeli or anti-semetic. There seems to be a pretty strong age demarcation line, with some exceptions of course when it comes to it. I don't know how anyone can frame (with a straight face) pro-Palestinian demonstrations as anything else besides supporting the Hamas attacks, as these of course began prior to Israel's response. When I hear with my own two ears "But Mo-om, what Israel has been doing the Palestinians for years is horrible", the day of the Hamas attacks, I read that as making justification for it, and I can't interpret that as anything else. I don't understand how some folks cannot differentiate between Hamas and Palestinians. You appear to be deliberately conflating the two. I Abhor the Hamas atrocities, but I'm still pro-Palestinian in respect of freedom in Gaza, and pro a Palestinian state. Surely that can not be too difficult to grasp!? And what Israel is doing to the Gazans is no less evil than what Hamas have done to Israelis. As I've said elsewhere, there are no good guys killing people in Israel, West Bank or Gaza, none whatsoever .
|
|
|
Post by mrsmlh on Oct 23, 2023 17:15:45 GMT -5
There's been a pretty concerted effort in universities to push pro-Palestinian rhetoric. I've personally seen quite a bit of it. Unfortunately, this agenda has either been presented as, or manifested itself as also being rather anti-Israeli or anti-semetic. There seems to be a pretty strong age demarcation line, with some exceptions of course when it comes to it. I don't know how anyone can frame (with a straight face) pro-Palestinian demonstrations as anything else besides supporting the Hamas attacks, as these of course began prior to Israel's response. When I hear with my own two ears "But Mo-om, what Israel has been doing the Palestinians for years is horrible", the day of the Hamas attacks, I read that as making justification for it, and I can't interpret that as anything else. I don't understand how some folks cannot differentiate between Hamas and Palestinians. You appear to be deliberately conflating the two. I Abhor the Hamas atrocities, but I'm still pro-Palestinian in respect of freedom in Gaza, and pro a Palestinian state. Surely that can not be too difficult to grasp!? And what Israel is doing to the Gazans is no less evil than what Hamas have done to Israelis. As I've said elsewhere, there are no good guys killing people in Israel, West Bank or Gaza, none whatsoever . I've never been able to understand how some people can be against innocent Israelis being killed but for innocent Palestinians being killed. To me one is as bad as the other.
|
|
|
Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 23, 2023 17:45:18 GMT -5
There were instances early on where people and groups organizing pro-Palestinian rallies were using paraglider graphics on their organizing materials.
That's not going to win over a lot of mainstream people much less Jews.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 23, 2023 18:02:13 GMT -5
There were instances early on where people and groups organizing pro-Palestinian rallies were using paraglider graphics on their organizing materials. That's not going to win over a lot of mainstream people much less Jews. I agree but in defense of the activist groups, the reports of clashes between Hamas and Israeli soldiers broke before the details of how many civilians were massacred or taken hostage by Hamas became clear. Most people view insurgent attacks against the IDF as legitimate resistance. The details about what happened at the concert and the Kibbutz’s trickled out online. When it became apparent that there was a major massacre of Israeli civilians that coincided with those attacks, many activists toned down their rhetoric. I assume that most don’t view harming civilians as justified regardless of the circumstances. But most people didn’t immediately know what happened.
|
|
|
Post by pickle20 on Oct 23, 2023 18:42:55 GMT -5
The fact that most on the Left view Israel as a settler/colonizer/apartheid state explains their response, not antisemitism. “The Left” includes many American Jews who view Israel as an apartheid state. Most people should know or understand that not all Israelis are Jewish and not all Jews support or identify with the modern (not biblical)state of Israel. And those people on the left need to realize that concert goers and innocent children who were massacred are not their government and aren't involved in apartheid or colonialism. If anyone is celebrating the deaths of innocent people, they're disgusting trash.
|
|
|
Post by pickle20 on Oct 23, 2023 18:46:07 GMT -5
There's been a pretty concerted effort in universities to push pro-Palestinian rhetoric. I've personally seen quite a bit of it. Unfortunately, this agenda has either been presented as, or manifested itself as also being rather anti-Israeli or anti-semetic. There seems to be a pretty strong age demarcation line, with some exceptions of course when it comes to it. I don't know how anyone can frame (with a straight face) pro-Palestinian demonstrations as anything else besides supporting the Hamas attacks, as these of course began prior to Israel's response. When I hear with my own two ears "But Mo-om, what Israel has been doing the Palestinians for years is horrible", the day of the Hamas attacks, I read that as making justification for it, and I can't interpret that as anything else. I think the problem is this is too complex an issue for most people to understand so they pick sides based on simplified reasoning and paint the other side as evil. As with most conflicts throughout history that is not the case. There are good people on both sides of this conflict who are suffering at the expense of something they're not a part of. That is where the tragedy is...the tragedy of all wars.
|
|
|
Post by vosa on Oct 23, 2023 19:56:01 GMT -5
There's been a pretty concerted effort in universities to push pro-Palestinian rhetoric. I've personally seen quite a bit of it. Unfortunately, this agenda has either been presented as, or manifested itself as also being rather anti-Israeli or anti-semetic. There seems to be a pretty strong age demarcation line, with some exceptions of course when it comes to it. I don't know how anyone can frame (with a straight face) pro-Palestinian demonstrations as anything else besides supporting the Hamas attacks, as these of course began prior to Israel's response. When I hear with my own two ears "But Mo-om, what Israel has been doing the Palestinians for years is horrible", the day of the Hamas attacks, I read that as making justification for it, and I can't interpret that as anything else. When young people see the injustices that Palestinians deal with, what do you expect them to do? Support Israel's oppression? We can quibble over the lack of nuance or sensitivity in some of the things student activists have said since October 7th, but in the big picture, young people throughout history have opposed injustices around the world. This is nothing new... I seem to remember a time some 60 years ago when your people were oppressed in this country. A guy named Martin Luther King, Jr. and some other civil right leaders got together and decided that the way to fight this oppression was a Gandhi (did you catch that Pickle20?) type civil disobedience campaign. They rallied like minded people to their cause and within a few years the worst of the Jim Crow oppression had ended. No hostages. No be-headed babies. No children burned alive. If the Palestinians had adopted this approach in 1948 there's a good chance that they too could have overcome the oppression they were opposed to.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 23, 2023 20:06:48 GMT -5
When young people see the injustices that Palestinians deal with, what do you expect them to do? Support Israel's oppression? We can quibble over the lack of nuance or sensitivity in some of the things student activists have said since October 7th, but in the big picture, young people throughout history have opposed injustices around the world. This is nothing new... I seem to remember a time some 60 years ago when your people were oppressed in this country. A guy named Martin Luther King, Jr. and some other civil right leaders got together and decided that the way to fight this oppression was a Gandhi (did you catch that Pickle20?) type civil disobedience campaign. They rallied like minded people to their cause and within a few years the worst of the Jim Crow oppression had ended. No hostages. No be-headed babies. No children burned alive. If the Palestinians had adopted this approach in 1948 there's a good chance that they too could have overcome the oppression they were opposed to. The Right continues to conflate Hamas with all Palestinians. SMH Secondly, our civil rights movement succeeded because many White Americans supported racial integration. In contrast, Israel doesn’t want to integrate 3-4 million Palestinian refugees into their population. Lastly, Palestinian resistance is always crushed by Israel whether they protest peacefully or not. There are peaceful protests all the time in the West Bank and Gaza but those forms of protest and resistance get far less international attention.
|
|
|
Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 23, 2023 20:21:26 GMT -5
There were instances early on where people and groups organizing pro-Palestinian rallies were using paraglider graphics on their organizing materials. That's not going to win over a lot of mainstream people much less Jews. I agree but in defense of the activist groups, the reports of clashes between Hamas and Israeli soldiers broke before the details of how many civilians were massacred or taken hostage by Hamas became clear. Most people view insurgent attacks against the IDF as legitimate resistance. The details about what happened at the concert and the Kibbutz’s trickled out online. When it became apparent that there was a major massacre of Israeli civilians that coincided with those attacks, many activists toned down their rhetoric. I assume that most don’t view harming civilians as justified regardless of the circumstances. But most people didn’t immediately know what happened. Not buying it. I started the thread on the terrorist attack at about 3 in the morning. Israel is about 8 hours ahead of us. Initial reports made it clear that Hamas was slaughtering civilians and there were already pictures of dead women all over the site. By mid morning our time the scale of Hamas’ monstrosity was pretty clear. A lot of students think it’s cool to be part of the left and buy in to a lot of the talk about ‘the struggle’ so I cut them a little slack for not fully realizing how reprehensible some of these groups actually are but these organizers knew exactly what they were doing
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 23, 2023 20:38:11 GMT -5
I agree but in defense of the activist groups, the reports of clashes between Hamas and Israeli soldiers broke before the details of how many civilians were massacred or taken hostage by Hamas became clear. Most people view insurgent attacks against the IDF as legitimate resistance. The details about what happened at the concert and the Kibbutz’s trickled out online. When it became apparent that there was a major massacre of Israeli civilians that coincided with those attacks, many activists toned down their rhetoric. I assume that most don’t view harming civilians as justified regardless of the circumstances. But most people didn’t immediately know what happened. Not buying it. I started the thread on the terrorist attack at about 3 in the morning. Israel is about 8 hours ahead of us. Initial reports made it clear that Hamas was slaughtering civilians and there were already pictures of dead women all over the site. By mid morning our time the scale of Hamas’ monstrosity was pretty clear. A lot of students think it’s cool to be part of the left and buy in to tA lot of the students think it’s called to be part of the left please doalk about ‘the struggle’ so I cut them a little slack for not fully realizing how reprehensible some of these groups actually are but these organizers knew exactly what they were doing Young people usually think it’s “cool” to oppose systemic oppression. The Left supported anti-Colonial movements in the 60s and anti-apartheid movements in the 80s (against South Africa). Israel awkwardly remains one of the few remaining colonial/apartheid states. I think these students’ hearts are in the right place even if they don’t always express themselves in a way that reflects well on the broader left. They aren’t the problem. On the other side, you have rightwingers openly calling for genocide against the Palestinians yet no one has been “cancelled” or fired from their jobs for that type of rhetoric.
|
|
summer23
Full Member
"Sometimes party loyalty asks too much." JFK
Posts: 1,907
|
Post by summer23 on Oct 23, 2023 21:19:54 GMT -5
There were instances early on where people and groups organizing pro-Palestinian rallies were using paraglider graphics on their organizing materials. That's not going to win over a lot of mainstream people much less Jews. I agree but in defense of the activist groups, the reports of clashes between Hamas and Israeli soldiers broke before the details of how many civilians were massacred or taken hostage by Hamas became clear. Most people view insurgent attacks against the IDF as legitimate resistance. The details about what happened at the concert and the Kibbutz’s trickled out online. When it became apparent that there was a major massacre of Israeli civilians that coincided with those attacks, many activists toned down their rhetoric. I assume that most don’t view harming civilians as justified regardless of the circumstances. But most people didn’t immediately know what happened. The Hamas terrorists attaked Israeli citizens and others on October 7th. Do you really want people to believe that it wasn't until 10/11 or 10/12 that people discovered even a portion of mayhem? Really?
|
|
|
Post by alienrace on Oct 23, 2023 22:26:07 GMT -5
he Right continues to conflate Hamas with all Palestinians. SMH Who's conflating Hamas? The people bringing up Palestinians plight after Hamas attacked Israel seem to be the ones starting that conflation. Hamas is a subset of Palestinians, no matter how much anyone tries to deny that. To deny their connection is rather ludicrous.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 24, 2023 4:55:08 GMT -5
he Right continues to conflate Hamas with all Palestinians. SMH Who's conflating Hamas? The people bringing up Palestinians plight after Hamas attacked Israel seem to be the ones starting that conflation. Hamas is a subset of Palestinians, no matter how much anyone tries to deny that. To deny their connection is rather ludicrous. Hamas exists because of Israel’s mistreatment of the Palestinians. The organization didn’t exist before the 1980s. The Israel-Palestinian problem has remained unresolved for 70 or so years. The broader point is, the longer Israel keeps their boots on the necks of Palestinians, the more radicalized and violent things will become over there. You can’t keep people oppressed forever as we know very well from our own history. If we want to get to solutions, we have to address the root of the problem. I don’t agree with every statement or everything said at these protests but I think these college activists are on the right side of history just like the college students who opposed racial segregation and apartheid.
|
|
|
Post by pickle20 on Oct 24, 2023 6:02:41 GMT -5
he Right continues to conflate Hamas with all Palestinians. SMH Who's conflating Hamas? The people bringing up Palestinians plight after Hamas attacked Israel seem to be the ones starting that conflation. Hamas is a subset of Palestinians, no matter how much anyone tries to deny that. To deny their connection is rather ludicrous. Would you want be killed by a foreign military because they conflated you with BLM or some other left wing ideal that you don't agree with? Or killed by Al Qaeda because you're an American citizen and the American military invaded Iraq and killed hundreds of thousands of their fellow countrymen? This is what Hamas did to Israelis they killed and many are doing it with Palestinians. For many people in Gaza the only connection is that they're trapped in Gaza and Hamas is the ruling terror group.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Oct 24, 2023 6:14:50 GMT -5
Who's conflating Hamas? The people bringing up Palestinians plight after Hamas attacked Israel seem to be the ones starting that conflation. Hamas is a subset of Palestinians, no matter how much anyone tries to deny that. To deny their connection is rather ludicrous. Hamas exists because of Israel’s mistreatment of the Palestinians. The organization didn’t exist before the 1980s. The Israel-Palestinian problem has remained unresolved for 70 or so years. The broader point is, the longer Israel keeps their boots on the necks of Palestinians, the more radicalized and violent things will become over there. You can’t keep people oppressed forever as we know very well from our own history. If we want to get to solutions, we have to address the root of the problem. I don’t agree with every statement or everything said at these protests but I think these college activists are on the right side of history just like the college students who opposed racial segregation and apartheid. Hamas exists to destroy Israel and kill as many Jews as possible in the process. It's in their charter. It's not a response to oppression or "apartheid" that's just a racist trope Hamas adopted to justify their butchery. Gaza is its own entity now. It has been since 2005 or 06. What happens there doesn't happen because of Israeli policies. It happens because of Hamas policies.
|
|
|
Post by pickle20 on Oct 24, 2023 6:18:51 GMT -5
Hamas exists because of Israel’s mistreatment of the Palestinians. The organization didn’t exist before the 1980s. The Israel-Palestinian problem has remained unresolved for 70 or so years. The broader point is, the longer Israel keeps their boots on the necks of Palestinians, the more radicalized and violent things will become over there. You can’t keep people oppressed forever as we know very well from our own history. If we want to get to solutions, we have to address the root of the problem. I don’t agree with every statement or everything said at these protests but I think these college activists are on the right side of history just like the college students who opposed racial segregation and apartheid. Hamas exists to destroy Israel and kill as many Jews as possible in the process. It's in their charter. It's not a response to oppression or "apartheid" that's just a racist trope Hamas adopted to justify their butchery. Gaza is its own entity now. It has been since 2005 or 06. What happens there doesn't happen because of Israeli policies. It happens because of Hamas policies. This is simply not true.
|
|
|
Post by WKDWZD on Oct 24, 2023 6:27:33 GMT -5
he Right continues to conflate Hamas with all Palestinians. SMH Who's conflating Hamas? The people bringing up Palestinians plight after Hamas attacked Israel seem to be the ones starting that conflation. Hamas is a subset of Palestinians, no matter how much anyone tries to deny that. To deny their connection is rather ludicrous. Find another word, "subset" is incorrectly used here, unless you are also happy with "racists, rapists and murderers are a subset of Americans" as a statement.
|
|
|
Post by WKDWZD on Oct 24, 2023 6:30:35 GMT -5
Hamas exists to destroy Israel and kill as many Jews as possible in the process. It's in their charter. It's not a response to oppression or "apartheid" that's just a racist trope Hamas adopted to justify their butchery. Gaza is its own entity now. It has been since 2005 or 06. What happens there doesn't happen because of Israeli policies. It happens because of Hamas policies. This is simply not true. He is simply ignorant of the facts, or just trolling.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 24, 2023 6:32:01 GMT -5
Hamas exists because of Israel’s mistreatment of the Palestinians. The organization didn’t exist before the 1980s. The Israel-Palestinian problem has remained unresolved for 70 or so years. The broader point is, the longer Israel keeps their boots on the necks of Palestinians, the more radicalized and violent things will become over there. You can’t keep people oppressed forever as we know very well from our own history. If we want to get to solutions, we have to address the root of the problem. I don’t agree with every statement or everything said at these protests but I think these college activists are on the right side of history just like the college students who opposed racial segregation and apartheid. Hamas exists to destroy Israel and kill as many Jews as possible in the process. It's in their charter. It's not a response to oppression or "apartheid" that's just a racist trope Hamas adopted to justify their butchery. Gaza is its own entity now. It has been since 2005 or 06. What happens there doesn't happen because of Israeli policies. It happens because of Hamas policies. Fwiw: Hamas revised their charter in 2017. They now endorse the Two-state solution en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_CharterAlso fwiw, Israel helped to create and empower Hamas because they played the “divide and conquer” game to defeat secular Palestinian organizations. www.tbsnews.net/hamas-israel-war/how-israel-went-helping-create-hamas-bombing-it-718378At the end of the day, Hamas is just a symptom, not the root of the problems between Israel and the Palestinians. Israel has the right to target Hamas leaders for arrest or assassination but they shouldn’t continue to collectively punish the Palestinian people.
|
|
|
Post by pickle20 on Oct 24, 2023 6:33:09 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by kandace on Oct 24, 2023 6:36:35 GMT -5
Nice Onion video.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Oct 24, 2023 6:39:40 GMT -5
Hamas exists to destroy Israel and kill as many Jews as possible in the process. It's in their charter. It's not a response to oppression or "apartheid" that's just a racist trope Hamas adopted to justify their butchery. Gaza is its own entity now. It has been since 2005 or 06. What happens there doesn't happen because of Israeli policies. It happens because of Hamas policies. Fwiw: Hamas revised their charter in 2017. They now endorse the Two-state solution en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_CharterAlso fwiw, Israel helped to create and empower Hamas because they played the “divide and conquer” game to defeat secular Palestinian organizations. www.tbsnews.net/hamas-israel-war/how-israel-went-helping-create-hamas-bombing-it-718378At the end of the day, Hamas is just a symptom, not the root of the problems between Israel and the Palestinians. Israel has the right to target Hamas leaders for arrest or assassination but they shouldn’t continue to collectively punish the Palestinian people. Except they clearly don't endorse a two state solution. They already have their own land, and get billions in aid from around the world every year. They take that money and use it to fund their terrorists and make rockets. Israel doesn't collectively punish Palestinians. Hamas collectively punishes Palestinians.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Oct 24, 2023 6:48:39 GMT -5
The reality of Israel from an Arab Israeli:
|
|
|
Post by msmaggie on Oct 24, 2023 6:58:24 GMT -5
The reality of Israel from an Arab Israeli: Not the reality of Gaza or left bank. The Palestinians have been ill treated by the Israelis. They--the Palestinians--are hardly blameless. Both things are true. The bad actors for decades have been the other Arab nations and Iran who have used the Palestinians as pawns for decades. And the idiot Bibi made things much worse.
|
|
|
Post by soulflower on Oct 24, 2023 6:59:42 GMT -5
Fwiw: Hamas revised their charter in 2017. They now endorse the Two-state solution en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_CharterAlso fwiw, Israel helped to create and empower Hamas because they played the “divide and conquer” game to defeat secular Palestinian organizations. www.tbsnews.net/hamas-israel-war/how-israel-went-helping-create-hamas-bombing-it-718378At the end of the day, Hamas is just a symptom, not the root of the problems between Israel and the Palestinians. Israel has the right to target Hamas leaders for arrest or assassination but they shouldn’t continue to collectively punish the Palestinian people. Except they clearly don't endorse a two state solution. They already have their own land, and get billions in aid from around the world every year. They take that money and use it to fund their terrorists and make rockets. Israel doesn't collectively punish Palestinians. Hamas collectively punishes Palestinians. Perfectly fine to criticize Hamas for their extremism and violence towards Israelis and Palestinians. But it’s factually inaccurate to suggest that Israel doesn’t collectively punish Palestinian civilians. They’re doing collective punishment in Gaza and the West Bank simultaneously despite Hamas not even being in power in the West Bank.
|
|