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Post by mrsmlh on Oct 29, 2023 12:37:58 GMT -5
This was copied from a post written by my cousin's wife who is an American Jew living in Texas:
According to the Associated Press, the numbers in the Israel/Hamas war. Keep in mind that Palestinian does not equal Hamas (the vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza are not Hamas), and that some of the numbers for Palestinians are from the West Bank, which is NOT Gaza. And that these are just the independently verified numbers. #CeaseFireNow
1,400 Number of Israelis killed 7,326 Number of Palestinians killed
5,431 Number of Israelis injured 18,967 Number of Palestinians injured
250,000 Number of Israelis displaced (vast majority of which are Israeli settlers who aren't supposed to be living in Gaza). 1.4 million Number of Palestinians displaced in Gaza
229 Soldiers and civilians being held hostage in Gaza 4 Hostages released
84 Aid trucks let into Gaza
27,781 Apartment complexes destroyed in Gaza
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Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 29, 2023 13:54:39 GMT -5
This was copied from a post written by my cousin's wife who is an American Jew living in Texas: According to the Associated Press, the numbers in the Israel/Hamas war. Keep in mind that Palestinian does not equal Hamas (the vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza are not Hamas), and that some of the numbers for Palestinians are from the West Bank, which is NOT Gaza. And that these are just the independently verified numbers. #CeaseFireNow 1,400 Number of Israelis killed 7,326 Number of Palestinians killed 5,431 Number of Israelis injured 18,967 Number of Palestinians injured 250,000 Number of Israelis displaced (vast majority of which are Israeli settlers who aren't supposed to be living in Gaza). 1.4 million Number of Palestinians displaced in Gaza 229 Soldiers and civilians being held hostage in Gaza 4 Hostages released 84 Aid trucks let into Gaza 27,781 Apartment complexes destroyed in Gaza What did Hamas think was going to happen?
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Post by soulflower on Oct 29, 2023 15:14:59 GMT -5
“those who want to thwart the establishment of a palestinian state should support the strengthening of hamas and the transfer of money to hamas. this is part of our strategy.”
What did Netanyahu think was going to happen?
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 29, 2023 15:41:59 GMT -5
This was copied from a post written by my cousin's wife who is an American Jew living in Texas: According to the Associated Press, the numbers in the Israel/Hamas war. Keep in mind that Palestinian does not equal Hamas (the vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza are not Hamas), and that some of the numbers for Palestinians are from the West Bank, which is NOT Gaza. And that these are just the independently verified numbers. #CeaseFireNow 1,400 Number of Israelis killed 7,326 Number of Palestinians killed 5,431 Number of Israelis injured 18,967 Number of Palestinians injured 250,000 Number of Israelis displaced (vast majority of which are Israeli settlers who aren't supposed to be living in Gaza). 1.4 million Number of Palestinians displaced in Gaza 229 Soldiers and civilians being held hostage in Gaza 4 Hostages released 84 Aid trucks let into Gaza 27,781 Apartment complexes destroyed in Gaza What did Hamas think was going to happen? Dunno, but genocide is what Palestinians are getting. Feck Israel. A pox on Zionists and Zionist settlers. Israel will become known throughout the world for creating the 2nd Holocaust, feck em! Edit: BTW, relating to some silliness that is going on in another thread, this is my freedom of speech ... Arrest me!
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Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 29, 2023 22:10:52 GMT -5
There's a strong undercurrent of anti-Semitism that runs through a lot of the pro-Palestinian movement.
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 30, 2023 6:24:58 GMT -5
There's a strong undercurrent of anti-Semitism that runs through a lot of the pro-Palestinian movement. No shìt, Sherlock! Hardly surprising under the present circumstances, eh?
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Post by pickle20 on Oct 30, 2023 6:29:53 GMT -5
I think it's unfair to label any criticism of Israel as antisemitism. Much of the criticism is of their government's response to the 10/7 attacks. The Israeli government is a secular one.
However, this conflict is tearing the mask off of some deeply antisemitic people, especially those on the left, or forcing people to pick sides and the mob mentality brings out the worst in them.
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 30, 2023 6:48:51 GMT -5
I think it's unfair to label any criticism of Israel as antisemitism. Much of the criticism is of their government's response to the 10/7 attacks. The Israeli government is a secular one.However, this conflict is tearing the mask off of some deeply antisemitic people, especially those on the left, or forcing people to pick sides and the mob mentality brings out the worst in them. I can not agree with your statement. What is secular about Israeli PM tried to justify the Killing of Palestinians: Remember what our Bible says. The quote Netanyahu refers to is the book of Samuel in chapter 15 verse 3: “Now go and smite Amalek, utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but kill both man and woman, infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey “.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 7:01:36 GMT -5
I think it's unfair to label any criticism of Israel as antisemitism. Much of the criticism is of their government's response to the 10/7 attacks. The Israeli government is a secular one. However, this conflict is tearing the mask off of some deeply antisemitic people, especially those on the left, or forcing people to pick sides and the mob mentality brings out the worst in them. I think it’s overblown and intended to distract people from what Israel is doing. Show me examples of the so-called antisemitism on the Left. Anti-zionism doesn’t count but criticism of Israel is often lumped in with antisemitism nowadays.
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Post by summer23 on Oct 30, 2023 7:27:26 GMT -5
I think it's unfair to label any criticism of Israel as antisemitism. Much of the criticism is of their government's response to the 10/7 attacks. The Israeli government is a secular one. However, this conflict is tearing the mask off of some deeply antisemitic people, especially those on the left, or forcing people to pick sides and the mob mentality brings out the worst in them. I think it’s overblown and intended to distract people from what Israel is doing. Show me examples of the so-called antisemitism on the Left. Anti-zionism doesn’t count but criticism of Israel is often lumped in with antisemitism nowadays. No, it's not overblown. Notable incidents included: Jewish diners in Los Angeles attacked by individuals in cars carrying Palestinian flags shouting “You should be ashamed of yourselves” and reportedly making anti-Jewish slurs; a pro-Palestinian convoy in New York City driving through the 47th Street diamond district, an area with a heavy Jewish business presence, throwing firecrackers while shouting antisemitic slogans; a man wearing a kippah in New York going to a pro-Israel demonstration who was attacked by 5 men, one of whom yelled, “dirty Jew;” and in Las Vegas, a Jewish male having a conversation about the Israel-Hamas conflict with a stranger, was told Jews are “baby killers” who “are not going to exist.” www.adl.org/resources/report/antisemitism-and-radical-anti-israel-bias-political-left-europe
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Post by pickle20 on Oct 30, 2023 7:35:12 GMT -5
I think it's unfair to label any criticism of Israel as antisemitism. Much of the criticism is of their government's response to the 10/7 attacks. The Israeli government is a secular one. However, this conflict is tearing the mask off of some deeply antisemitic people, especially those on the left, or forcing people to pick sides and the mob mentality brings out the worst in them. I think it’s overblown and intended to distract people from what Israel is doing. Show me examples of the so-called antisemitism on the Left. Anti-zionism doesn’t count but criticism of Israel is often lumped in with antisemitism nowadays. Take off your blinders. Maybe change up your Twitter algorithm to get some opposing views.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 7:40:31 GMT -5
I think it’s overblown and intended to distract people from what Israel is doing. Show me examples of the so-called antisemitism on the Left. Anti-zionism doesn’t count but criticism of Israel is often lumped in with antisemitism nowadays. Take off your blinders. Maybe change up your Twitter algorithm to get some opposing views. I have no blinders on this issue. The pro-Israel people who co-sign apartheid and injustices towards Palestinians are the ones with the blinders. Many of the pro-Palestine activists are Jewish. I think the reason for that is, people like Netanyahu claim that Israel represents all Jews and American Jews disagree with that and don’t want to support human rights abuses done in the name of Judaism. Some pro-Palestine activists have made insensitive comments and haven’t condemned Hamas strongly enough. I agree with that but don’t view those people as antisemitic. They’re just strongly anti-Israel. Again, Israel is a state and criticism of Israel is no more anti-Jewish than criticism of Saudi Arabia is anti-Muslim.
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Post by pickle20 on Oct 30, 2023 7:43:23 GMT -5
Take off your blinders. Maybe change up your Twitter algorithm to get some opposing views. I have no blinders on this issue. The pro-Israel people who co-sign apartheid and injustices towards Palestinians are the ones with the blinders. Many of the pro-Palestine activists are Jewish. I think the reason for that is, people like Netanyahu claim that Israel represents all Jews and American Jews disagree with that and don’t want to support human rights abuses done in the name of Judaism. Some pro-Palestine activists have made insensitive comments and haven’t condemned Hamas strongly enough. I agree with that but don’t view those people as antisemitic. They’re just strongly anti-Israel. Again, Israel is a state and criticism of Israel is no more anti-Jewish than criticism of Saudi Arabia is anti-Muslim. Except Israel is the only Jewish state in the world and there are many other Muslim countries so at some point, it can cross over into antisemitism. I don't think antisemitism is rampant on the left as it applies to this but the outrage from pro-Palestine crowd has reached those levels. I think most of the outrage comes from the belief that Israel, like Russia, is the oppressive force.
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Post by mrsmlh on Oct 30, 2023 7:50:25 GMT -5
Even though Israel was attacked this time, the Palestinians have been continuously attacked by Israel for decades with little to no consequences so I can understand why some see Israel as the oppressive force.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 8:36:50 GMT -5
I have no blinders on this issue. The pro-Israel people who co-sign apartheid and injustices towards Palestinians are the ones with the blinders. Many of the pro-Palestine activists are Jewish. I think the reason for that is, people like Netanyahu claim that Israel represents all Jews and American Jews disagree with that and don’t want to support human rights abuses done in the name of Judaism. Some pro-Palestine activists have made insensitive comments and haven’t condemned Hamas strongly enough. I agree with that but don’t view those people as antisemitic. They’re just strongly anti-Israel. Again, Israel is a state and criticism of Israel is no more anti-Jewish than criticism of Saudi Arabia is anti-Muslim. Except Israel is the only Jewish state in the world and there are many other Muslim countries so at some point, it can cross over into antisemitism. I don't think antisemitism is rampant on the left as it applies to this but the outrage from pro-Palestine crowd has reached those levels. I think most of the outrage comes from the belief that Israel, like Russia, is the oppressive force. Israel IS an oppressive force. Imagine a country that still had legal slavery in the early 20th century. That country would face broad condemnation the same way Israel gets a lot of flack for still having racial segregation in the early 21st century and committing mass oppression against the Palestinians. Kids today have been conditioned to view Apartheid/Segregation as very dangerous and evil. So why should people be shocked that young people, including many American Jews, dislike the state of Israel? Pro-Israel lobbyists have spent years trying to conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism and that’s the reason I push back so hard on this topic…
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Post by pickle20 on Oct 30, 2023 8:46:22 GMT -5
Except Israel is the only Jewish state in the world and there are many other Muslim countries so at some point, it can cross over into antisemitism. I don't think antisemitism is rampant on the left as it applies to this but the outrage from pro-Palestine crowd has reached those levels. I think most of the outrage comes from the belief that Israel, like Russia, is the oppressive force. Israel IS an oppressive force. Imagine a country that still had legal slavery in the early 20th century. That country would face broad condemnation the same way Israel gets a lot of flack for still having racial segregation in the early 21st century and committing mass oppression against the Palestinians. Kids today have been conditioned to view Apartheid/Segregation as very dangerous and evil. So why should people be shocked that young people, including many American Jews, dislike the state of Israel? Pro-Israel lobbyists have spent years trying to conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism and that’s the reason I push back so hard on this topic… I agree they're oppressive. But that doesn't mean that some criticism isn't antisemitic in nature.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 30, 2023 8:52:19 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 8:57:14 GMT -5
Israel IS an oppressive force. Imagine a country that still had legal slavery in the early 20th century. That country would face broad condemnation the same way Israel gets a lot of flack for still having racial segregation in the early 21st century and committing mass oppression against the Palestinians. Kids today have been conditioned to view Apartheid/Segregation as very dangerous and evil. So why should people be shocked that young people, including many American Jews, dislike the state of Israel? Pro-Israel lobbyists have spent years trying to conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism and that’s the reason I push back so hard on this topic… I agree they're oppressive. But that doesn't mean that some criticism isn't antisemitic in nature. When bigotry is expressed, it should be called out no matter which side of the political aisle it comes from. However, most of the examples I've seen or read about are expressions of insensitivity to the victims of the Oct. 7th attacks more than examples of antisemitism. I don't think it's right to tear down pictures of Hamas' hostages or right to not condemn Hamas at all in commentary about what's happened in Israel since Oct 7th but I also don't think most of that sentiment driven by antisemitism. Most of these activists just really dislike Israel in the same way that you really dislike Russia. In the broader context of how Israel is viewed by most Progressives, I don't view the anger as driven by bigotry towards Jews. It's entirely secular and political in nature. Most of the outspoken critics of Israel that I follow in Leftwing media are Jewish.
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Post by pickle20 on Oct 30, 2023 9:01:45 GMT -5
I agree they're oppressive. But that doesn't mean that some criticism isn't antisemitic in nature. When bigotry is expressed, it should be called out no matter which side of the political aisle it comes from. However, most of the examples I've seen or read about are expressions of insensitivity to the victims of the Oct. 7th attacks more than examples antisemitism. I don't think it's right to tear down pictures of Hamas' hostages or right to not condemn Hamas at all in commentary about what's happened in Israel since Oct 7th but I also don't think most of that sentiment driven by antisemitism. Most of these activists just really dislike Israel in the same way that you really dislike Russia. In the broader context of how Israel is viewed by most Progressives, I don't view the anger as driven by bigotry towards Jews. It's entirely secular and political. Most of the outspoken critics of Israel that I follow in Leftwing media are Jewish. Sprightly posted some examples of antisemitism.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 9:08:04 GMT -5
When bigotry is expressed, it should be called out no matter which side of the political aisle it comes from. However, most of the examples I've seen or read about are expressions of insensitivity to the victims of the Oct. 7th attacks more than examples antisemitism. I don't think it's right to tear down pictures of Hamas' hostages or right to not condemn Hamas at all in commentary about what's happened in Israel since Oct 7th but I also don't think most of that sentiment driven by antisemitism. Most of these activists just really dislike Israel in the same way that you really dislike Russia. In the broader context of how Israel is viewed by most Progressives, I don't view the anger as driven by bigotry towards Jews. It's entirely secular and political. Most of the outspoken critics of Israel that I follow in Leftwing media are Jewish. Sprightly posted some examples of antisemitism. Random people across the country behaving badly. Shocker! In the other thread, I posted a video of pro-Israel protesters in NYC calling for genocide against the Palestinians. No comment from Sprightly There is bad behavior on both sides of this issue but the consequences are mostly on the pro-Palestine side. Most of the anti-woke or anti-cancel culture people are okay with cancelling people for their views on Israel. In contrast, there’s little to no criticism or consequences for hateful things said about Palestinians, Arabs, or Muslims by politicians and others who should know better.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 9:34:54 GMT -5
The college professor below (who is Jewish) sounds like most college campus activists that I've heard speak on this topic. Nothing antisemitic about her commentary.
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Post by summer23 on Oct 30, 2023 9:44:32 GMT -5
Sprightly posted some examples of antisemitism. Random people across the country behaving badly. Shocker! In the other thread, I posted a video of pro-Israel protesters in NYC calling for genocide against the Palestinians. No comment from Sprightly There is bad behavior on both sides of this issue but the consequences are mostly on the pro-Palestine side. Most of the anti-woke or anti-cancel culture people are okay with cancelling people for their views on Israel. In contrast, there’s little to no criticism or consequences for hateful things said about Palestinians, Arabs, or Muslims by politicians and others who should know better. Maybe I was ignoring you for a couple of days and didn't see it. It's not all about you all the time, soulflower.
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 30, 2023 9:59:22 GMT -5
Except Israel is the only Jewish state in the world and there are many other Muslim countries so at some point, it can cross over into antisemitism. I don't think antisemitism is rampant on the left as it applies to this but the outrage from pro-Palestine crowd has reached those levels. I think most of the outrage comes from the belief that Israel, like Russia, is the oppressive force. Israel IS an oppressive force. Imagine a country that still had legal slavery in the early 20th century. That country would face broad condemnation the same way Israel gets a lot of flack for still having racial segregation in the early 21st century and committing mass oppression against the Palestinians. Kids today have been conditioned to view Apartheid/Segregation as very dangerous and evil. So why should people be shocked that young people, including many American Jews, dislike the state of Israel? Pro-Israel lobbyists have spent years trying to conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism and that’s the reason I push back so hard on this topic… States that still had legal slavery in the early 20th century? You mean like Palestine? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_PalestineIt was those racist English after the Ottomans that started working to end the practice during the "British Mandate" period.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 10:10:00 GMT -5
Israel IS an oppressive force. Imagine a country that still had legal slavery in the early 20th century. That country would face broad condemnation the same way Israel gets a lot of flack for still having racial segregation in the early 21st century and committing mass oppression against the Palestinians. Kids today have been conditioned to view Apartheid/Segregation as very dangerous and evil. So why should people be shocked that young people, including many American Jews, dislike the state of Israel? Pro-Israel lobbyists have spent years trying to conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism and that’s the reason I push back so hard on this topic… States that still had legal slavery in the early 20th century? You mean like Palestine? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_PalestineIt was those racist English after the Ottomans that started working to end the practice during the "British Mandate" period. Correct. The British Empire, despite their colonialism and ethnic bigotry, was anti-slavery while the Ottoman Empire was not. Most of the world has rejected colonialism and segregation since the 1960s. Israel awkwardly stands alone in the modern world for being an apartheid State and most young people (who follow international affairs) are repulsed by the status quo in Israel. Very few college educated people are religious today so there's not going to be the kind of blind support for Israel that most devout American Christians have...
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 30, 2023 10:13:59 GMT -5
I think it's unfair to label any criticism of Israel as antisemitism. Much of the criticism is of their government's response to the 10/7 attacks. The Israeli government is a secular one. "The Israeli government is a secular one. However, this conflict is tearing the mask off of some deeply antisemitic people, especially those on the left, or forcing people to pick sides and the mob mentality brings out the worst in them. I have no blinders on this issue. The pro-Israel people who co-sign apartheid and injustices towards Palestinians are the ones with the blinders. Many of the pro-Palestine activists are Jewish. I think the reason for that is, people like Netanyahu claim that Israel represents all Jews and American Jews disagree with that and don’t want to support human rights abuses done in the name of Judaism. Some pro-Palestine activists have made insensitive comments and haven’t condemned Hamas strongly enough. I agree with that but don’t view those people as antisemitic. They’re just strongly anti-Israel. Again, Israel is a state and criticism of Israel is no more anti-Jewish than criticism of Saudi Arabia is anti-Muslim. Except Israel is the only Jewish state in the world and there are many other Muslim countries so at some point, it can cross over into antisemitism. I don't think antisemitism is rampant on the left as it applies to this but the outrage from pro-Palestine crowd has reached those levels. I think most of the outrage comes from the belief that Israel, like Russia, is the oppressive force. Just a few post ago you said "The Israeli government is a secular one." Now you say "Israel is the only Jewish state in the world". Which one is it?
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 30, 2023 10:24:59 GMT -5
States that still had legal slavery in the early 20th century? You mean like Palestine? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_PalestineIt was those racist English after the Ottomans that started working to end the practice during the "British Mandate" period. Correct. The British Empire, despite their colonialism and ethnic bigotry, was anti-slavery while the Ottoman Empire was not. Most of the world has rejected colonialism and segregation since the 1960s. Israel awkwardly stands alone in the modern world for being an apartheid State and most young people (who follow international affairs) are repulsed by the status quo in Israel. Very few college educated people are religious today so there's not going to be the kind of blind support for Israel that most devout American Christians have... Except Israel isn't the apartheid state. Arabs can and do live in Israel. They have the same rights as every other Israeli citizen. They serve in the Knessett, they serve as judges. The Palestinian territories are the apartheid state. Israelis can't live there, or participate in the government. Its true that college educated people tend to not be religious. Which is why it's so baffling that they stand fully behind the religious extremists in this fight: Hamas. The only explanation for this is that college "educated" people who think this way aren't educated at all. At best they're woefully ignorant of the reality on the ground. At worst they're raging antisemites.
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Post by pickle20 on Oct 30, 2023 10:29:04 GMT -5
I think it's unfair to label any criticism of Israel as antisemitism. Much of the criticism is of their government's response to the 10/7 attacks. The Israeli government is a secular one. "The Israeli government is a secular one. However, this conflict is tearing the mask off of some deeply antisemitic people, especially those on the left, or forcing people to pick sides and the mob mentality brings out the worst in them. Except Israel is the only Jewish state in the world and there are many other Muslim countries so at some point, it can cross over into antisemitism. I don't think antisemitism is rampant on the left as it applies to this but the outrage from pro-Palestine crowd has reached those levels. I think most of the outrage comes from the belief that Israel, like Russia, is the oppressive force. Just a few post ago you said "The Israeli government is a secular one." Now you say "Israel is the only Jewish state in the world". Which one is it? Both are true. Israel is a Jewish state in that a majority of the country is Jewish. But the government is secular. Ethnically, Israel is a Jewish state.
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Post by summer23 on Oct 30, 2023 10:29:56 GMT -5
States that still had legal slavery in the early 20th century? You mean like Palestine? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_PalestineIt was those racist English after the Ottomans that started working to end the practice during the "British Mandate" period. Correct. The British Empire, despite their colonialism and ethnic bigotry, was anti-slavery while the Ottoman Empire was not. Most of the world has rejected colonialism and segregation since the 1960s. Israel awkwardly stands alone in the modern world for being an apartheid State and most young people (who follow international affairs) are repulsed by the status quo in Israel. Very few college educated people are religious today so there's not going to be the kind of blind support for Israel that most devout American Christians have... Say what?? The British Empire was not anti-slavery. "Britain's involvement in the transatlantic slave trade officially began, with royal approval, in 1663. In less than 150 years, Britain was responsible for transporting millions of enslaved Africans to colonies in the Americas, where men, women and children were forced to work on plantations and denied basic rights."
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 11:21:09 GMT -5
Just a few post ago you said "The Israeli government is a secular one." Now you say "Israel is the only Jewish state in the world". Which one is it? Both are true. Israel is a Jewish state in that a majority of the country is Jewish. But the government is secular. Ethnically, Israel is a Jewish state. It's a Jewish state in the same way that Iran is an Islamic Republic. Self-identity. How they identify themselves isn't relevant to international relations in the secular world. Criticism of Israel is no more anti-semitic than criticism of Iran is Islamophobic...
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 11:22:58 GMT -5
Correct. The British Empire, despite their colonialism and ethnic bigotry, was anti-slavery while the Ottoman Empire was not. Most of the world has rejected colonialism and segregation since the 1960s. Israel awkwardly stands alone in the modern world for being an apartheid State and most young people (who follow international affairs) are repulsed by the status quo in Israel. Very few college educated people are religious today so there's not going to be the kind of blind support for Israel that most devout American Christians have... Say what?? The British Empire was not anti-slavery. "Britain's involvement in the transatlantic slave trade officially began, with royal approval, in 1663. In less than 150 years, Britain was responsible for transporting millions of enslaved Africans to colonies in the Americas, where men, women and children were forced to work on plantations and denied basic rights." By the mid-1800s, the British empire was anti-slavery. RJ and I were talking about how weird it would be for a country to have slavery in the early-20th century.
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