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Post by Ranger John on Oct 24, 2023 7:12:51 GMT -5
Except they clearly don't endorse a two state solution. They already have their own land, and get billions in aid from around the world every year. They take that money and use it to fund their terrorists and make rockets. Israel doesn't collectively punish Palestinians. Hamas collectively punishes Palestinians. Perfectly fine to criticize Hamas for their extremism and violence towards Israelis and Palestinians. But it’s factually inaccurate to suggest that Israel doesn’t collectively punish Palestinian civilians. They’re doing collective punishment in Gaza and the West Bank simultaneously despite Hamas not even being in power in the West Bank. Your problem remains that its Hamas that's collectively punishing the Palestinians. Hamas is the reason Israel is bombing Gaza. Hamas is the reason Palestinians can't move out of the way. Hamas is the reason Mosques, schools, apartment blocks and hospitals are being bombed instead of military bases. Hamas is the reason Gaza has no independent water or electricity capacity. Hamas is even the reason Egypt won't open their border crossing.
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 24, 2023 7:18:08 GMT -5
Perfectly fine to criticize Hamas for their extremism and violence towards Israelis and Palestinians. But it’s factually inaccurate to suggest that Israel doesn’t collectively punish Palestinian civilians. They’re doing collective punishment in Gaza and the West Bank simultaneously despite Hamas not even being in power in the West Bank. Your problem remains that its Hamas that's collectively punishing the Palestinians. Hamas is the reason Israel is bombing Gaza. Hamas is the reason Palestinians can't move out of the way. Hamas is the reason Mosques, schools, apartment blocks and hospitals are being bombed instead of military bases. Hamas is the reason Gaza has no independent water or electricity capacity. Hamas is even the reason Egypt won't open their border crossing. No matter how many times you make that ridiculous and stupid statement you will still be wrong. Israel are the oppressors and aggressors in Gaza, period.
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Post by msmaggie on Oct 24, 2023 7:22:12 GMT -5
Your problem remains that its Hamas that's collectively punishing the Palestinians. Hamas is the reason Israel is bombing Gaza. Hamas is the reason Palestinians can't move out of the way. Hamas is the reason Mosques, schools, apartment blocks and hospitals are being bombed instead of military bases. Hamas is the reason Gaza has no independent water or electricity capacity. Hamas is even the reason Egypt won't open their border crossing. No matter how many times you make that ridiculous and stupid statement you will still be wrong. Israel are the oppressors and aggressors in Gaza, period. Hamas has given, and continues to give, Israelis an excuse for their policies. Case in point: October 7.
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 24, 2023 7:28:55 GMT -5
No matter how many times you make that ridiculous and stupid statement you will still be wrong. Israel are the oppressors and aggressors in Gaza, period. Hamas has given, and continues to give, Israelis an excuse for their policies. Case in point: October 7. I'm not arguing that point. But it is Israel that is collectively punishing the Gazans/Palestinians. Israel's policies towards Palestine are, and have always been, inexcusable.
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Post by summer23 on Oct 24, 2023 7:46:07 GMT -5
Perhaps it's time for elections in Palestine. I am sure that someone will come up with some lame excuse why no elections have taken place since 2006.
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Post by pickle20 on Oct 24, 2023 8:18:54 GMT -5
Perhaps it's time for elections in Palestine. I am sure that someone will come up with some lame excuse why no elections have taken place since 2006. Get rid of Hamas and this probably happens. It's not a lame excuse to say that Hamas gained power in 2006 and then made sure they'd never lose it by forbidding elections going forward. I'm all for the eradication of Hamas. By carrying out 10/7 they wrote their own death certificate.
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 24, 2023 8:35:04 GMT -5
Perhaps it's time for elections in Palestine. I am sure that someone will come up with some lame excuse why no elections have taken place since 2006. Well, the reason the Palestinian Authority/Fatah doesn't want elections is probably because they're afraid they'll be replaced by Hamas. They fought a war amongst themselves because of that in the mid 2000s.
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Post by summer23 on Oct 24, 2023 8:36:22 GMT -5
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Post by pickle20 on Oct 24, 2023 8:49:01 GMT -5
So dumb. Targeting innocent people just trying to live their lives.
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Post by Rael on Oct 24, 2023 8:55:55 GMT -5
I don't understand how some folks cannot differentiate between Hamas and Palestinians. You appear to be deliberately conflating the two. I Abhor the Hamas atrocities, but I'm still pro-Palestinian in respect of freedom in Gaza, and pro a Palestinian state. Surely that can not be too difficult to grasp!? And what Israel is doing to the Gazans is no less evil than what Hamas have done to Israelis. As I've said elsewhere, there are no good guys killing people in Israel, West Bank or Gaza, none whatsoever . I've never been able to understand how some people can be against innocent Israelis being killed but for innocent Palestinians being killed. To me one is as bad as the other. I'm not sure anyone is "pro innocent Palestinians killed". What you are seeing is the natural reaction to an attack. For instance, I am certainly not "pro innocent Afghanis killed", but I understood that we needed to respond to the attack against us and that some innocent people would die as a result. You can make the argument that any innocent Palestinians killed as a result of that attack weigh more heavily on the ledger of Hamas than Israel. That does not mitigate or absolve the Israelis from their policies and their own evil acts, but as a pure cause and effect logical exercise, those Palestinians would be alive if Hamas had not attacked.
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 24, 2023 9:12:14 GMT -5
I've never been able to understand how some people can be against innocent Israelis being killed but for innocent Palestinians being killed. To me one is as bad as the other. I'm not sure anyone is "pro innocent Palestinians killed". What you are seeing is the natural reaction to an attack. For instance, I am certainly not "pro innocent Afghanis killed", but I understood that we needed to respond to the attack against us and that some innocent people would die as a result. You can make the argument that any innocent Palestinians killed as a result of that attack weigh more heavily on the ledger of Hamas than Israel. That does not mitigate or absolve the Israelis from their policies and their own evil acts, but as a pure cause and effect logical exercise, those Palestinians would be alive if Hamas had not attacked. If we're talking about "pure cause and effect logical exercises", those Palestinians would be alive if Israel wasn't stealing Palestinians land, building settlements on it, displacing Palestinians from it and keeping Gazans imprisoned in Gaza.
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Post by mrsmlh on Oct 24, 2023 9:15:03 GMT -5
I've never been able to understand how some people can be against innocent Israelis being killed but for innocent Palestinians being killed. To me one is as bad as the other. I'm not sure anyone is "pro innocent Palestinians killed". What you are seeing is the natural reaction to an attack. For instance, I am certainly not "pro innocent Afghanis killed", but I understood that we needed to respond to the attack against us and that some innocent people would die as a result. You can make the argument that any innocent Palestinians killed as a result of that attack weigh more heavily on the ledger of Hamas than Israel. That does not mitigate or absolve the Israelis from their policies and their own evil acts, but as a pure cause and effect logical exercise, those Palestinians would be alive if Hamas had not attacked. I've seen people think it was acceptable for Israel to kill Palestinians for any number of reasons such as when Israel bulldozed Palestinian homes so they could build their own settlements. A lot of Americans have been brainwashed to believe that Israel is in the right no matter what they do. In the case of the Hamas bombing Israel is right to defend itself against Hamas but not right imo to purposely kill innocent civilian Palestinians especially those in the West Bank.
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 24, 2023 9:22:32 GMT -5
I'm not sure anyone is "pro innocent Palestinians killed". What you are seeing is the natural reaction to an attack. For instance, I am certainly not "pro innocent Afghanis killed", but I understood that we needed to respond to the attack against us and that some innocent people would die as a result. You can make the argument that any innocent Palestinians killed as a result of that attack weigh more heavily on the ledger of Hamas than Israel. That does not mitigate or absolve the Israelis from their policies and their own evil acts, but as a pure cause and effect logical exercise, those Palestinians would be alive if Hamas had not attacked. I've seen people think it was acceptable for Israel to kill Palestinians for any number of reasons such as when Israel bulldozed Palestinian homes so they could build their own settlements. A lot of Americans have been brainwashed to believe that Israel is in the right no matter what they do. In the case of the Hamas bombing Israel is right to defend itself against Hamas but not right imo to purposely kill innocent civilian Palestinians especially those in the West Bank. I believe that many Americans see Israel as USA's Mini-me, albeit a rogue one, and therefore it can do no wrong. I also believe that much of the RotW sees it that way as well.
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Post by Rael on Oct 24, 2023 9:23:55 GMT -5
I'm not sure anyone is "pro innocent Palestinians killed". What you are seeing is the natural reaction to an attack. For instance, I am certainly not "pro innocent Afghanis killed", but I understood that we needed to respond to the attack against us and that some innocent people would die as a result. You can make the argument that any innocent Palestinians killed as a result of that attack weigh more heavily on the ledger of Hamas than Israel. That does not mitigate or absolve the Israelis from their policies and their own evil acts, but as a pure cause and effect logical exercise, those Palestinians would be alive if Hamas had not attacked. If we're talking about "pure cause and effect logical exercises", those Palestinians would be alive if Israel wasn't stealing Palestinians land, building settlements on it, displacing Palestinians from it and keeping Gazans imprisoned in Gaza. Agreed, and I would go so far as to say some U.S. policies inspired al Qaeda to attack the U.S. Does that mean we should not have responded to the attack on NYC?
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Post by msmaggie on Oct 24, 2023 9:29:43 GMT -5
If we're talking about "pure cause and effect logical exercises", those Palestinians would be alive if Israel wasn't stealing Palestinians land, building settlements on it, displacing Palestinians from it and keeping Gazans imprisoned in Gaza. Agreed, and I would go so far as to say some U.S. policies inspired al Qaeda to attack the U.S. Does that mean we should not have responded to the attack on NYC? Not in the way we did!!!! Attacking Iraq was the biggest foreign policy mistake in our lifetime.
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 24, 2023 9:31:18 GMT -5
If we're talking about "pure cause and effect logical exercises", those Palestinians would be alive if Israel wasn't stealing Palestinians land, building settlements on it, displacing Palestinians from it and keeping Gazans imprisoned in Gaza. Agreed, and I would go so far as to say some U.S. policies inspired al Qaeda to attack the U.S. Does that mean we should not have responded to the attack on NYC? You shouldn't have bombed the crap out of Iraq for it, killing hundreds of thousands Iraqis. I knew that then and still know it now.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 24, 2023 9:32:33 GMT -5
The son of an Israeli general on the root of the problems between Israel and the Palestinians
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Post by alienrace on Oct 24, 2023 9:46:42 GMT -5
Who's conflating Hamas? The people bringing up Palestinians plight after Hamas attacked Israel seem to be the ones starting that conflation. Hamas is a subset of Palestinians, no matter how much anyone tries to deny that. To deny their connection is rather ludicrous. Find another word, "subset" is incorrectly used here, unless you are also happy with "racists, rapers and murderers are a subset of Americans" as a statement. Racists, rapers, and murderers ARE a subset of American society, unfortunately.
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Post by Rael on Oct 24, 2023 9:48:39 GMT -5
Agreed, and I would go so far as to say some U.S. policies inspired al Qaeda to attack the U.S. Does that mean we should not have responded to the attack on NYC?You shouldn't have bombed the crap out of Iraq for it, killing hundreds of thousands Iraqis. I knew that then and still know it now. Yes, different subject. I'm talking about Afghanistan.
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Post by Rael on Oct 24, 2023 9:49:08 GMT -5
Agreed, and I would go so far as to say some U.S. policies inspired al Qaeda to attack the U.S. Does that mean we should not have responded to the attack on NYC? Not in the way we did!!!! Attacking Iraq was the biggest foreign policy mistake in our lifetime. I understand. I'm talking about Afghanistan.
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Post by alienrace on Oct 24, 2023 9:51:02 GMT -5
I've never been able to understand how some people can be against innocent Israelis being killed but for innocent Palestinians being killed. To me one is as bad as the other. I'm not sure anyone is "pro innocent Palestinians killed". What you are seeing is the natural reaction to an attack. For instance, I am certainly not "pro innocent Afghanis killed", but I understood that we needed to respond to the attack against us and that some innocent people would die as a result. You can make the argument that any innocent Palestinians killed as a result of that attack weigh more heavily on the ledger of Hamas than Israel. That does not mitigate or absolve the Israelis from their policies and their own evil acts, but as a pure cause and effect logical exercise, those Palestinians would be alive if Hamas had not attacked. Perfectly said. I have nothing else to add or say about this subject.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 24, 2023 9:51:49 GMT -5
If we're talking about "pure cause and effect logical exercises", those Palestinians would be alive if Israel wasn't stealing Palestinians land, building settlements on it, displacing Palestinians from it and keeping Gazans imprisoned in Gaza. Agreed, and I would go so far as to say some U.S. policies inspired al Qaeda to attack the U.S. Does that mean we should not have responded to the attack on NYC? It’s not that Israel “shouldn’t” respond. It’s “how” they respond. Currently, they’re responding in a counterproductive way if their goal is to defeat Hamas. Based on prior history, they most likely will fail and a new generation of Palestinian terrorists will be born. Using intelligence ops and special ops to eliminate Hamas takes time but it can be done and is more likely to succeed.
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Post by summer23 on Oct 24, 2023 10:58:23 GMT -5
Oh, just some kids overreacting. Correct? Israeli students at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) say they are "terrified" to be on campus after participants at a campus protest chanted "one solution, intifada, revolution" at a rally supporting the devastating Hamas terrorist attacks that killed hundreds of Israelis in Israel. MIT students Liyam Chitayat and Lior Alon told Fox News Digital in interviews that after they contacted MIT’s administration to report the calls to violence being chanted from the protest and for concern for their own safety, they’ve yet to receive a substantial response. Chitayat, a 19-year-old pursuing a Ph.D. on a prestigious scholarship and who previously served in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), describes the rally cry as a call for the murder of Jews and the demolition of Israel. "Intifada is not a call for resistance. Intifada is the name of acts of bombing and killing civilians in Israel in the Israel-Palestine conflict. It's the name of taking civilian lives in terrorist attacks in Israel. That is what intifada means. That is how it's defined," she said. www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israeli-mit-students-terrified-after-anti-israel-rally-chant-calls-for-one-solution-intifada/ar-AA1iK6d4?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=caad5dcd3bf94d9da6c11802ed7e7572&ei=15
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 24, 2023 11:34:33 GMT -5
Agreed, and I would go so far as to say some U.S. policies inspired al Qaeda to attack the U.S. Does that mean we should not have responded to the attack on NYC? It’s not that Israel “shouldn’t” respond. It’s “how” they respond. Currently, they’re responding in a counterproductive way if their goal is to defeat Hamas. Based on prior history, they most likely will fail and a new generation of Palestinian terrorists will be born. Using intelligence ops and special ops to eliminate Hamas takes time but it can be done and is more likely to succeed. How should Israel respond? Pinpoint targeting of everyone who rises up to take control of Hamas? That didn't end Al Qaida. Granted it did seriously degrade its ability to carry out attacks. And the reason we have generations in Palestine hating Israel is the propaganda put out in the Gaza schools. I think in order to understand that, we need to understand what Hamas wants. What would it take to get Hamas to stop attacking Israel? It isn't its own state. It effectively has that. It isn't an end to "the occupation" - Israel doesn't occupy Gaza. It isn't an end to "apartheid" - that only exists in Palestnian territories, and it's mostly imposed by Hamas. Arabs fully participate in Israeli society and politics. The reverse isn't true in the Palestinian Territories. It isn't improving Palestinian infrastructure. Hamas has had plenty of resources to do exactly that, and won't. Hamas says it wants "From the River to the Sea Palestine shall be free!" In other words, what Hamas says will bring peace is the destruction of Israel.
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Post by msmaggie on Oct 24, 2023 11:43:47 GMT -5
It’s not that Israel “shouldn’t” respond. It’s “how” they respond. Currently, they’re responding in a counterproductive way if their goal is to defeat Hamas. Based on prior history, they most likely will fail and a new generation of Palestinian terrorists will be born. Using intelligence ops and special ops to eliminate Hamas takes time but it can be done and is more likely to succeed. How should Israel respond? Pinpoint targeting of everyone who rises up to take control of Hamas? That didn't end Al Qaida. Granted it did seriously degrade its ability to carry out attacks. And the reason we have generations in Palestine hating Israel is the propaganda put out in the Gaza schools. I think in order to understand that, we need to understand what Hamas wants. What would it take to get Hamas to stop attacking Israel? It isn't its own state. It effectively has that. It isn't an end to "the occupation" - Israel doesn't occupy Gaza. It isn't an end to "apartheid" - that only exists in Palestnian territories, and it's mostly imposed by Hamas. Arabs fully participate in Israeli society and politics. The reverse isn't true in the Palestinian Territories. It isn't improving Palestinian infrastructure. Hamas has had plenty of resources to do exactly that, and won't. Hamas says it wants "From the River to the Sea Palestine shall be free!" In other words, what Hamas says will bring peace is the destruction of Israel. I thought I corrected you on this before. Palestine is not its own state. If it were, why would there be talk (among Israelis and others) of a 2 state solution being desirable? If it was already the case? Duh. Have you ever been to Gaza? I have. It's pretty grim. This is the kind of logic I expect from a MAGA devotee. Simplistic, all black and white. Hamas is evil and needs to be wiped out. That doesn't mean the Israelis--especially under the idiot/indicted Bibi--have been blameless.
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Post by vosa on Oct 24, 2023 12:39:15 GMT -5
I seem to remember a time some 60 years ago when your people were oppressed in this country. A guy named Martin Luther King, Jr. and some other civil right leaders got together and decided that the way to fight this oppression was a Gandhi (did you catch that Pickle20?) type civil disobedience campaign. They rallied like minded people to their cause and within a few years the worst of the Jim Crow oppression had ended. No hostages. No be-headed babies. No children burned alive. If the Palestinians had adopted this approach in 1948 there's a good chance that they too could have overcome the oppression they were opposed to. The Right continues to conflate Hamas with all Palestinians. SMH Secondly, our civil rights movement succeeded because many White Americans supported racial integration. In contrast, Israel doesn’t want to integrate 3-4 million Palestinian refugees into their population. Lastly, Palestinian resistance is always crushed by Israel whether they protest peacefully or not. There are peaceful protests all the time in the West Bank and Gaza but those forms of protest and resistance get far less international attention. 1. And the left continues to conflate 74M+ Americans with domestic terrorists. 2. Your comment re Israel integrating Palestinians is not true.3. I'd like to see a link re Israel crushing peaceful Palestinian resistance.
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Post by pickle20 on Oct 24, 2023 12:48:42 GMT -5
The Right continues to conflate Hamas with all Palestinians. SMH Secondly, our civil rights movement succeeded because many White Americans supported racial integration. In contrast, Israel doesn’t want to integrate 3-4 million Palestinian refugees into their population. Lastly, Palestinian resistance is always crushed by Israel whether they protest peacefully or not. There are peaceful protests all the time in the West Bank and Gaza but those forms of protest and resistance get far less international attention. 1. And the left continues to conflate 74M+ Americans with domestic terrorists.
2. Your comment re Israel integrating Palestinians is not true.3. I'd like to see a link re Israel crushing peaceful Palestinian resistance. Maybe some on the left do, but I thought you didn't like generalizations? Or is it just when people generalize Republicans? I'm not on the left but I think a majority of those 74M are just idiot marks.
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Post by vosa on Oct 24, 2023 12:53:22 GMT -5
Maybe some on the left do, but I thought you didn't like generalizations? Or is it just when people generalize Republicans? I'm not on the left but I think a majority of those 74M are just idiot marks. Oh, the irony. 1st you call me out re generalization and then you say a majority of those 74M are just idiot marks.
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Post by pickle20 on Oct 24, 2023 12:55:56 GMT -5
Maybe some on the left do, but I thought you didn't like generalizations? Or is it just when people generalize Republicans? I'm not on the left but I think a majority of those 74M are just idiot marks. Oh, the irony. 1st you call me out re generalization and then you say a majority of those 74M are just idiot marks. I never said I was against generalizations.
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Post by vosa on Oct 24, 2023 13:23:45 GMT -5
Oh, the irony. 1st you call me out re generalization and then you say a majority of those 74M are just idiot marks. I never said I was against generalizations. That's obvious since you engage in them often.
But here's the problem.
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