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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 11:30:50 GMT -5
Correct. The British Empire, despite their colonialism and ethnic bigotry, was anti-slavery while the Ottoman Empire was not. Most of the world has rejected colonialism and segregation since the 1960s. Israel awkwardly stands alone in the modern world for being an apartheid State and most young people (who follow international affairs) are repulsed by the status quo in Israel. Very few college educated people are religious today so there's not going to be the kind of blind support for Israel that most devout American Christians have...
Except Israel isn't the apartheid state. Arabs can and do live in Israel. Arabs and Jews in Israel don't have equal rights. Arab/Palestinian Israelis have somewhat more freedom and rights than Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza but they don't have EQUAL rights with Jewish Israelis: Israel provides the vast majority of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living there with a legal status that weakens their residency rights by conditioning them on the individual’s connections to the city, among other factors. This level of discrimination amounts to systematic oppression.www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecutionWhat the Left wants is either a Two-State solution to be implemented or for Arabs and Jews in Israel to have equal Rights. What the far-Right pro-Israel crowd wants is the status quo of Israeli apartheid or for the Palestinians to be expelled from their land. One thing that both sides broadly agree on is that the status quo is unsustainable and change needs to come one way or another...
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 30, 2023 12:33:03 GMT -5
Except Israel isn't the apartheid state. Arabs can and do live in Israel. Arabs and Jews in Israel don't have equal rights. Arab/Palestinian Israelis have somewhat more freedom and rights than Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza but they don't have EQUAL rights with Jewish Israelis: Israel provides the vast majority of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living there with a legal status that weakens their residency rights by conditioning them on the individual’s connections to the city, among other factors. This level of discrimination amounts to systematic oppression.www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecutionWhat the Left wants is either a Two-State solution to be implemented or for Arabs and Jews in Israel to have equal Rights. What the far-Right pro-Israel crowd wants is the status quo of Israeli apartheid or for the Palestinians to be expelled from their land. One thing that both sides broadly agree on is that the status quo is unsustainable and change needs to come one way or another... There is nothing in Israeli law that treats Arabs differently than Jews, except that Jews are required to participate in the military, but it is optional for everyone else. In terms of what is happening on the ground in Gaza and the West Bank, tell it to Hamas/Fatah as appropriate. |
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 12:54:27 GMT -5
Arabs and Jews in Israel don't have equal rights. Arab/Palestinian Israelis have somewhat more freedom and rights than Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza but they don't have EQUAL rights with Jewish Israelis: Israel provides the vast majority of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living there with a legal status that weakens their residency rights by conditioning them on the individual’s connections to the city, among other factors. This level of discrimination amounts to systematic oppression.www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecutionWhat the Left wants is either a Two-State solution to be implemented or for Arabs and Jews in Israel to have equal Rights. What the far-Right pro-Israel crowd wants is the status quo of Israeli apartheid or for the Palestinians to be expelled from their land. One thing that both sides broadly agree on is that the status quo is unsustainable and change needs to come one way or another... The 'Law of Return' allows Jews from anywhere in the world to move to Israel while Palestinians don't have the same privilege even if they or their parents were born in Jerusalem. There are also discriminatory laws on land ownership in Israel. HRW: Decades of land confiscations and discriminatory planning policies have confined many Palestinian citizens to densely populated towns and villages that have little room to expand. Meanwhile, the Israeli government nurtures the growth and expansion of neighboring predominantly Jewish communities, many built on the ruins of Palestinian villages destroyed in 1948. Many small Jewish towns also have admissions committees that effectively bar Palestinians from living there.
“Israeli policy on both sides of the Green Line restricts Palestinians to dense population centers while maximizing the land available for Jewish communities,” said Eric Goldstein, acting Middle East executive director at Human Rights Watch. “These practices are well-known when it comes to the occupied West Bank, but Israeli authorities are also enforcing discriminatory land practices inside Israel.”www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/12/israel-discriminatory-land-policies-hem-palestinians
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Post by summer23 on Oct 30, 2023 13:04:35 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 13:07:08 GMT -5
I don't have any friends in Russia. However, I do have Russian and Ukrainian friends in Baltimore. 
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 30, 2023 13:08:55 GMT -5
There is nothing in Israeli law that treats Arabs differently than Jews, The 'Law of Return' allows Jews from anywhere in the world to move to Israel while Palestinians don't have the same privilege even if they or their parents were born in Jerusalem. There are also discriminatory laws on land ownership in Israel. HRW: Decades of land confiscations and discriminatory planning policies have confined many Palestinian citizens to densely populated towns and villages that have little room to expand. Meanwhile, the Israeli government nurtures the growth and expansion of neighboring predominantly Jewish communities, many built on the ruins of Palestinian villages destroyed in 1948. Many small Jewish towns also have admissions committees that effectively bar Palestinians from living there.
“Israeli policy on both sides of the Green Line restricts Palestinians to dense population centers while maximizing the land available for Jewish communities,” said Eric Goldstein, acting Middle East executive director at Human Rights Watch. “These practices are well-known when it comes to the occupied West Bank, but Israeli authorities are also enforcing discriminatory land practices inside Israel.”www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/12/israel-discriminatory-land-policies-hem-palestinians This isn't discriminatory. Most countries have similar citizenship laws. Villages that were destroyed in the war in 1948... well its the same thing now. Arabs went and picked a fight. They lost. Then there were consequences. Too bad. |
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Post by summer23 on Oct 30, 2023 13:42:43 GMT -5
I don't have any friends in Russia. However, I do have Russian and Ukrainian friends in Baltimore. Oh absolutely you do! Your friend circle is very large. I recall you posting that you have Palestinian and Israeli friends as well. You're like the U.N. of friends!
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 13:45:04 GMT -5
The 'Law of Return' allows Jews from anywhere in the world to move to Israel while Palestinians don't have the same privilege even if they or their parents were born in Jerusalem. There are also discriminatory laws on land ownership in Israel. HRW: Decades of land confiscations and discriminatory planning policies have confined many Palestinian citizens to densely populated towns and villages that have little room to expand. Meanwhile, the Israeli government nurtures the growth and expansion of neighboring predominantly Jewish communities, many built on the ruins of Palestinian villages destroyed in 1948. Many small Jewish towns also have admissions committees that effectively bar Palestinians from living there.
“Israeli policy on both sides of the Green Line restricts Palestinians to dense population centers while maximizing the land available for Jewish communities,” said Eric Goldstein, acting Middle East executive director at Human Rights Watch. “These practices are well-known when it comes to the occupied West Bank, but Israeli authorities are also enforcing discriminatory land practices inside Israel.”www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/12/israel-discriminatory-land-policies-hem-palestinians This isn't discriminatory. Most countries have similar citizenship laws. Name those countries and we can compare and contrast. Villages that were destroyed in the war in 1948... well its the same thing now. Arabs went and picked a fight. They lost. Then there were consequences. Too bad. Ah I see. Might makes right and ethnic discrimination is okay because the Palestinians are Brown people who lost the war of settler-colonialism.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 13:51:19 GMT -5
I don't have any friends in Russia. However, I do have Russian and Ukrainian friends in Baltimore. Oh absolutely you do! Your friend circle is very large. I recall you posting that you have Palestinian and Israeli friends as well. You're like the U.N. of friends! I grew up in Queens NY. One of the most culturally diverse places in the world. And I believe my upbringing there is a large part of why I often interact with and easily make friends with people from other ethnicities and nationalities. Just one correction for your comment, I said I have many "Jewish" friends, not "Israeli". I personally know two people from Israel. Both are very nice people. Aside from that I know many Jewish people and some Palestinians.
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 30, 2023 13:58:19 GMT -5
This isn't discriminatory. Most countries have similar citizenship laws. Name those countries and we can compare and contrast. Villages that were destroyed in the war in 1948... well its the same thing now. Arabs went and picked a fight. They lost. Then there were consequences. Too bad. Ah I see. Might makes right and ethnic discrimination is okay because the Palestinians are Brown people who lost the war of settler-colonialism. Several European countries do this in one way or another: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_returnThis is just a tiny sample. Palestinians being "brown" has not a thing to do with this. If you start a war and lose, you can expect to lose some territory in the process. This is to discourage people from starting wars... brown, white, blue or otherwise. |
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Post by pickle20 on Oct 30, 2023 14:01:25 GMT -5
Just so we're clear.
Palestinian Lives = worthless
Carry on.
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Post by mrsmlh on Oct 30, 2023 14:07:14 GMT -5
Just so we're clear. Palestinian Lives = worthless Carry on. Unfortunately there are too many people who believe this even though they wont voice it.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 14:09:18 GMT -5
Just so we're clear. Palestinian Lives = worthless Carry on. Pretty much. Seems like under any other circumstance, what Israel does would get more condemnation in the USA. We can quibble over whether pro-Palestine activists help or hurt their cause with some of the ways they protest or comments they make (the same arguments are used against almost every protest movement). But in the big picture, they're not the problem. The problem is Israel violently trying to maintain a system that requires keeping their boot on the necks of millions of Palestinians. That puts supporters of Israel in an increasingly awkward position and unfortunately some people associate all Jews with Israel, which in turn leads to some antisemitic backlash over Israel.
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 30, 2023 14:19:16 GMT -5
Just so we're clear. Palestinian Lives = worthless Carry on. Pretty much. Seems like under any other circumstance, what Israel does would get more condemnation in the USA. We can quibble over whether pro-Palestine activists help or hurt their cause with some of the ways they protest or comments they make (the same arguments are used against almost every protest movement). But in the big picture, they're not the problem. The problem is Israel violently trying to maintain a system that requires keeping their boot on the necks of millions of Palestinians. That puts supporters of Israel in an increasingly awkward position and unfortunately some people associate all Jews with Israel, which in turn leads to some antisemitic backlash over Israel. Again, the problem isn't Palestinians writ large. The problem is Hamas, which is destroying the Palestinians. The Israelis and non-Hamas Palestinians are both victims of Hamas, which is hiding behind the latter while it attempts genocide on the former. Unless of course you and P20 have decided that Hamas and the Palestinians are one in the same. |
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 14:33:02 GMT -5
Pretty much. Seems like under any other circumstance, what Israel does would get more condemnation in the USA. We can quibble over whether pro-Palestine activists help or hurt their cause with some of the ways they protest or comments they make (the same arguments are used against almost every protest movement). But in the big picture, they're not the problem. The problem is Israel violently trying to maintain a system that requires keeping their boot on the necks of millions of Palestinians. That puts supporters of Israel in an increasingly awkward position and unfortunately some people associate all Jews with Israel, which in turn leads to some antisemitic backlash over Israel. Again, the problem isn't Palestinians writ large. The problem is Hamas, which is destroying the Palestinians. That logic is easily proven to be BS by the fact that Palestinians in the West Bank and Israel also experience discrimination and violence at the hands of the Israeli military and Israeli settlers. Palestinians have been oppressed for over 70 years while Hamas has existed for less than 40 years. Hamas controls only Gaza, not the West Bank or parts of Israel where Palestinians live. Violence and disappearances of Palestinians in the West Bank happen regularly despite the absence of Hamas. "Hamas" is an excuse for Israeli mistreatment of the Palestinians, not the root cause...
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Post by summer23 on Oct 30, 2023 14:58:39 GMT -5
Oh absolutely you do! Your friend circle is very large. I recall you posting that you have Palestinian and Israeli friends as well. You're like the U.N. of friends! I grew up in Queens NY. One of the most culturally diverse places in the world. And I believe my upbringing there is a large part of why I often interact with and easily make friends with people from other ethnicities and nationalities. Just one correction for your comment, I said I have many "Jewish" friends, not "Israeli". I personally know two people from Israel. Both are very nice people. Aside from that I know many Jewish people and some Palestinians. It's definetly more diverse than other areas but not high percentages of Jews or Muslims. But okay. ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2023/03/24/new-york-city-s-religious-diversity-bucks-stereotypes-of-secularism#:~:text=Staten%20Island%20has%20the%20lowest,at%200.897%20and%200.896%2C%20respectively.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 30, 2023 16:07:49 GMT -5
Oddly, one night in Williamsburg, Brooklyn I suddenly realized that none of the 24 hour delis had real bacon or ham. Most of them are owned and run by Muslims from the Arabian peninsula. Turkey ‘bacon’ offends my sensibilities |
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Post by summer23 on Oct 30, 2023 16:20:34 GMT -5
Oddly, one night in Williamsburg, Brooklyn I suddenly realized that none of the 24 hour delis had real bacon or ham. Most of them are owned and run by Muslims from the Arabian peninsula. Turkey ‘bacon’ offends my sensibilities It's always interesting when things change. The Subway in my area does not sell beef products - no roast beef sandwiches. Yep, the owner is from India.
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 30, 2023 17:38:03 GMT -5
Again, the problem isn't Palestinians writ large. The problem is Hamas, which is destroying the Palestinians. That logic is easily proven to be BS by the fact that Palestinians in the West Bank and Israel also experience discrimination and violence at the hands of the Israeli military and Israeli settlers. Palestinians have been oppressed for over 70 years while Hamas has existed for less than 40 years. Hamas controls only Gaza, not the West Bank or parts of Israel where Palestinians live. Violence and disappearances of Palestinians in the West Bank happen regularly despite the absence of Hamas. "Hamas" is an excuse for Israeli mistreatment of the Palestinians, not the root cause... The West Bank is not at issue here. At least so far, Fatah hasn't sent a couple thousand murderous rapists into Israel to burn and pillage peace concerts. Israel's response there has been proportionate to the endless volley of rockets coming out of there. You've got your last sentence utterly backwards Israel is an excuse for Hamas' mistreatment of the Palestinians, not the root cause. As noted above, Arabs in Israel proper have the same rights as Jewish Israelis. The issues with "oppression" in Gaza and the West Bank need to be taken up with the organizations running Gaza and the West Bank. Which are Hamas and Fatah. As for the violence and disappearances of Palestinians in the West Bank, again take it up with Fatah. It's not like they don't like to disappear each other... or throw each other off of buildings because someone is gay. Or take them to a hospital to be tortured. Back in 2005 or so, Hamas and Fatah went to war with each other. Because that's their nature.
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 30, 2023 18:13:55 GMT -5
Oddly, one night in Williamsburg, Brooklyn I suddenly realized that none of the 24 hour delis had real bacon or ham. Most of them are owned and run by Muslims from the Arabian peninsula. Turkey ‘bacon’ offends my sensibilities Well they wouldn't get my business then. Thank goodness for Aldi and Lidl, and I have a fridge so I don't need to shop 24 hrs. As for bacon, we have the real stuff (back bacon) as well as the streaky bacon that you guys prefer.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 18:19:45 GMT -5
As noted above, Arabs in Israel proper have the same rights as Jewish Israelis. You keep repeating this as though I haven’t provided several examples of how Arabs and Jews in Israel don’t have equal rights. Repeating the same inaccurate claim over and over doesn’t make it true. Israel isn’t a pluralistic multicultural democracy like the US. It’s a religious apartheid state. You can’t be a democracy when all your citizens aren’t treated equally under the laws. And Israel’s treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank is horrendous despite the fact that Hamas isn’t a major actor in the West Bank. |
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 30, 2023 18:23:08 GMT -5
Oddly, one night in Williamsburg, Brooklyn I suddenly realized that none of the 24 hour delis had real bacon or ham. Most of them are owned and run by Muslims from the Arabian peninsula. Turkey ‘bacon’ offends my sensibilities It's always interesting when things change. The Subway in my area does not sell beef products - no roast beef sandwiches. Yep, the owner is from India. Although I agree that beef isn't all that popular in India, I have eaten it in restaurants in both India and Sri Lanka. Although admittedly unless you specifically ask for it you will most likely get mutton, as most dishes are simply called 'meat' this or 'meat' that. And I do like a Beef Madras.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 30, 2023 18:47:13 GMT -5
What is driving this behavior?
I've seen a few of these hostage videos. They are terrifying and anyone with even a shred of humanity would show some sympathy to the families and friends of those still in captivity
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 30, 2023 18:52:13 GMT -5
As noted above, Arabs in Israel proper have the same rights as Jewish Israelis. You keep repeating this as though I haven’t provided several examples of how Arabs and Jews in Israel don’t have equal rights. Repeating the same inaccurate claim over and over doesn’t make it true. Israel isn’t a pluralistic multicultural democracy like the US. It’s a religious apartheid state. You can’t be a democracy when all your citizens aren’t treated equally under the laws. And Israel’s treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank is horrendous despite the fact that Hamas isn’t a major actor in the West Bank. But you haven't. You've pointed to issues in the West Bank and Gaza, not Israel. Gaza is de-facto not part of Israel. In the West Bank, Israel shares governing responsibility with Fatah, which means any differences between how Israelis and Palestinians get along in Israel versus how they get along in the West Bank is on Fatah. The West Bank COULD be governed the same way Israel governs the rest of Israel - which is that pluralistic multicultural democracy you mentioned. The reason it isn't, is because of Fatah. I find it utterly absurd that you speak of Israel as an "apartheid state" while also talking about Jewish settlements in the West Bank as an "occupation." That you don't understand why these two ideas are inherently contradictory is appalling. Arabs are able to live and work in Israel. Jews are not allowed to live in Gaza at all - that makes GAZA the racist apartheid state. The West Bank is a mish-mash of issues that come about largely because the Palestnians there are trying to set up their racist apartheid state where the Jews aren't allowed to live and they're doing it under the cover of pretending that excluding Jews from their racist apartheid state is actually a righteous fight against Jewish "colonialism." Again, this is OBVIOUS to anyone who can see and understand basic reality. This is the same sort of troglodyte racist thinking behind calling an American fast food restaurant in Mexico City "cultural imperialism," and a Mexican fast food restaurant in Washington DC "cultural appropriation." In reality all this is, is people who don't think showing the world they don't think.
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Post by Jimmy Jazz on Oct 30, 2023 18:58:49 GMT -5
What is driving this behavior? People seem to be increasingly making everything ‘team this’ vs ‘team that’ and going all in on being on a team. Maybe it’s always been this way and we just see it more since there are cameras everywhere and every little incident gets reported on and amplified online. |
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 19:07:25 GMT -5
What is driving this behavior? I've seen a few of these hostage videos. They are terrifying and anyone with even a shred of humanity would show some sympathy to the families and friends of those still in captivity Some on the Left view Zionism as a fascist ideology. There’s also the belief that Israel is attempting to commit genocide. I don’t condone people ripping down posters of Israeli hostages who are held by Hamas but I do believe these people believe they’re doing something righteous because they view Israel as evil and not because they hate Jews. Israel knows they have a PR problem because many young people have a negative opinion of the country. |
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Post by summer23 on Oct 30, 2023 19:10:14 GMT -5
It's always interesting when things change. The Subway in my area does not sell beef products - no roast beef sandwiches. Yep, the owner is from India. Although I agree that beef isn't all that popular in India, I have eaten it in restaurants in both India and Sri Lanka. Although admittedly unless you specifically ask for it you will most likely get mutton, as most dishes are simply called 'meat' this or 'meat' that. And I do like a Beef Madras. Hindus, for one, do no eat beef. I believe long ago I read that certain types of beef can be imported to be served to foreigners.
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Post by guido2 on Oct 30, 2023 19:17:23 GMT -5
Except Israel isn't the apartheid state. Arabs can and do live in Israel. Arabs and Jews in Israel don't have equal rights. Arab/Palestinian Israelis have somewhat more freedom and rights than Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza but they don't have EQUAL rights with Jewish Israelis: Israel provides the vast majority of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living there with a legal status that weakens their residency rights by conditioning them on the individual’s connections to the city, among other factors. This level of discrimination amounts to systematic oppression.www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecutionWhat the Left wants is either a Two-State solution to be implemented or for Arabs and Jews in Israel to have equal Rights. What the far-Right pro-Israel crowd wants is the status quo of Israeli apartheid or for the Palestinians to be expelled from their land. One thing that both sides broadly agree on is that the status quo is unsustainable and change needs to come one way or another... Let me preface; all here have to admit that the 'blood and murder' runs very very very deep. I am not talking about 80 years ago. The animosity 😏 has been around since way before Jesus. You could create a fantastic Venn Diagram and map overlay of the area as to 'whom' had control. It could be a tribe, a war leader, a religion (pick one), expansionism (See Rome and Egypt) all have had "some form" of control. Anyway, while everybody getting along, is highly unlikely in my mind. To much ^ and bad blood. An Iron clad, two state, you stay their we stay here, you shoot UN forces roll in is best I think. What was it they used to say..... good fences make good neighbors?
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 30, 2023 19:26:48 GMT -5
Someone please explain the difference between "de-colonizing" a place and "setting up an apartheid state" in real terms. Actually, never mind. I'll do it:
In reality, there is no difference. Both are the removal of an unwanted group of people from a location for racist reasons. "De-colonizing" is only used when one really wants to justify setting up an actual apartheid state because of their racism.
Gaza has been fully de-colonized state that saw no Israeli/Jewish presence from about 2006 until this past week. It is a totalitarian apartheid state in every sense of the word, but it's OK because the idiot class called setting up that apartheid state "de-colonization."
About 20% of Israel's population is Arab/Muslim. In Israel proper, that population enjoys all the same rights and representation as their Jewish neighbors, yet Israel is called an "apartheid state" by the clown car.
The West Bank is "occupied/colonized" by Jewish "settlers" - which really just means Jews live there. We are told the fact that Jews live there is a problem that needs to be solved by expelling them and that there can't be peace otherwise. This is what the clown car means when it says Palestine is "Occupied" by Israel. Which further means the goal of Fatah there is to expel all of the Jewish settlers ("de-colonize the West Bank") so they can have a Jew-free (really an Arab-only) apartheid state just like Gaza.
That's the REALITY of what we're talking about. Calling a 20% Arab Israeli state with full rights for that Arab minority an "apartheid state" and a 0% Jewish Gaza strip "de-colonized" to sanitize the actual apartheid state the Palestinians have set up there is a sign of either a very poorly informed or a very sick mind.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 30, 2023 19:59:44 GMT -5
Let's play a game.
Fourty to fifty years from now, which is more likely to be remembered about the current time in history by future students of history?:
- Obscure college students and professors making controversial statements or protesting in ways that make some uncomfortable (nevermind that protesters usually intentionally cause discomfort)?
or
- The massacre of Israelis civilians and soldiers on October 7th, 2023 followed by weeks of thousands of Palestinians being killed in Gaza and the West Bank?
Let's keep things in perspective and remember that millions of people are suffering currently and some are losing their lives. We can worry about hurt feelings once things settle down...
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