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Post by JoyinMudville on Oct 30, 2023 22:13:56 GMT -5
Let's play a game. Fourty to fifty years from now, which is more likely to be remembered about the current time in history by future students of history?: - Obscure college students and professors making controversial statements or protesting in ways that make some uncomfortable (nevermind that protesters usually intentionally cause discomfort)? or - The massacre of Israelis civilians and soldiers on October 7th, 2023 followed by weeks of thousands of Palestinians being killed in Gaza and the West Bank? Let's keep things in perspective and remember that millions of people are suffering currently and some are losing their lives. We can worry about hurt feelings once things settle down... Let's not... Let's discuss grassroots organizing and political movements, shall we? Let's say you always find yourself on the political fringe but you believe that your cause is just and, in order to affect change, you're going to need to convince a great many people toward the center and even on the other side of the political spectrum of the righteousness of that cause and that they should join you in advocating for change. In this specific case, you're trying to convince people that even though they just witnessed the most heinous and deadly terrorist attack since 9/11 conducted by an organization claiming that it is fighting for the Palestinians, that they should still understand that these Palestinians are actually the aggrieved party and that they are being denied basic human dignity. You're trying to convince people that it is really the Israeli government that needs to drastically change its position on an issue that many Jews consider to be fundamental to their identity. What's the best way to do that? Is it to engage in behavior that most thinking people consider morally repugnant? Do you somehow engender empathy for one group of people (the Palestinians) by downplaying and denying the pain and anguish being experienced right now by another group of people (Jews and Israelis)? Do you then belittle these people for their 'hurt feelings'? Is that smart? Do you really think you're advancing your cause by downplaying and rationalizing this or do you actually not give a crap about advancing you cause and would rather just go out of your way to be offensive because you think you hold the lease on the all the moral high ground? There's a reason, regardless of my views on how to achieve a just and lasting peace in the region, that I decided to never again find myself standing with these people and that's the same reason why that movement remains on the fringe. So, let's put that in perspective while you celebrate people running through the streets calling for a third Intifada
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Post by soulflower on Oct 31, 2023 5:40:37 GMT -5
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Post by pickle20 on Oct 31, 2023 6:11:50 GMT -5
What is driving this behavior? People seem to be increasingly making everything ‘team this’ vs ‘team that’ and going all in on being on a team. Maybe it’s always been this way and we just see it more since there are cameras everywhere and every little incident gets reported on and amplified online. This conflict has forced people to pick sides, like we do with everything in this country...and shocker, it's gotten pretty nasty.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 31, 2023 6:31:27 GMT -5
People seem to be increasingly making everything ‘team this’ vs ‘team that’ and going all in on being on a team. Maybe it’s always been this way and we just see it more since there are cameras everywhere and every little incident gets reported on and amplified online. This conflict has forced people to pick sides, like we do with everything in this country...and shocker, it's gotten pretty nasty. I don’t understand why anyone in the western world in the 21st century wants to side with a country that is doing pre-20th century stuff. |
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Post by Ranger John on Oct 31, 2023 6:46:16 GMT -5
This conflict has forced people to pick sides, like we do with everything in this country...and shocker, it's gotten pretty nasty. I don’t understand why anyone in the western world in the 21st century wants to side with a country that is doing pre-20th century stuff. That's easy. The country doing 20th century stuff is fighting organizations doing 13th century stuff. What's truly baffling is the people who are allegedly enlightened and educated siding with the organization doing the 13th century stuff... and shouting slogans like "gas the Jews!" Which is very much 1930s Nazi stuff. |
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Post by pickle20 on Oct 31, 2023 6:47:25 GMT -5
This conflict has forced people to pick sides, like we do with everything in this country...and shocker, it's gotten pretty nasty. I don’t understand why anyone in the western world in the 21st century wants to side with a country that is doing pre-20th century stuff. Like Russia?
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Post by msmaggie on Oct 31, 2023 7:33:49 GMT -5
People seem to be increasingly making everything ‘team this’ vs ‘team that’ and going all in on being on a team. Maybe it’s always been this way and we just see it more since there are cameras everywhere and every little incident gets reported on and amplified online. This conflict has forced people to pick sides, like we do with everything in this country...and shocker, it's gotten pretty nasty. Meanwhile the new speaker is tying aid to Israel to deep cuts in IRS funding. Deeply cynical play. Appeal to the MAGA base who is convinced the IRS is coming for them. Bonus of big time popular with billionaire class. Such a religious fella. |
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Post by soulflower on Oct 31, 2023 7:36:56 GMT -5
I don’t understand why anyone in the western world in the 21st century wants to side with a country that is doing pre-20th century stuff. Like Russia? Sure. The difference is, most people disagree with what Russia is doing in Ukraine. Almost no one defends Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Some people hypocritically give Israel a pass for indiscriminately bombing densely populated areas despite criticizing Russia for doing that. |
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Post by msmaggie on Oct 31, 2023 8:04:14 GMT -5
Sure. The difference is, most people disagree with what Russia is doing in Ukraine. Almost no one defends Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Some people hypocritically give Israel a pass for indiscriminately bombing densely populated areas despite criticizing Russia for doing that. Ok let's be fair. Ukraine didn't start that war by invading Russia and killing thousands, unprovoked. I agree Israel is committing atrocities under the guise of routing Hamas--which is not untrue. But they were not the aggressors. What a mess. |
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Post by soulflower on Oct 31, 2023 8:16:19 GMT -5
Sure. The difference is, most people disagree with what Russia is doing in Ukraine. Almost no one defends Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Some people hypocritically give Israel a pass for indiscriminately bombing densely populated areas despite criticizing Russia for doing that. Ok let's be fair. Ukraine didn't start that war by invading Russia and killing thousands, unprovoked. I agree Israel is committing atrocities under the guise of routing Hamas--which is not untrue. But they were not the aggressors. What a mess. I don’t think the two situations are easily comparable. Ukraine is a sovereign state. Palestine is not. The human rights and dignity of Ukrainians is acknowledged almost universally while half of the world seems to think Palestinians deserve no human rights or dignity. Ukrainian refugees were welcomed most places while almost no country wants to take in Palestinian refugees. The “aggressor” thing doesn’t apply because like I said, Palestine is not a country. Legally, it’s part of Israel. And we can broadly agree that the Palestinians have been oppressed for decades. The thing about oppression of human beings is, some will choose to live on their knees while others will choose to die on their feet. The status quo in Israel is unsustainable for both sides… |
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Post by msmaggie on Oct 31, 2023 8:25:32 GMT -5
Ok let's be fair. Ukraine didn't start that war by invading Russia and killing thousands, unprovoked. I agree Israel is committing atrocities under the guise of routing Hamas--which is not untrue. But they were not the aggressors. What a mess. I don’t think the two situations are easily comparable. Ukraine is a sovereign state. Palestine is not. The human rights and dignity of Ukrainians is acknowledged almost universally while half of the world seems to think Palestinians deserve no human rights or dignity. Ukrainian refugees were welcomed most places while almost no country wants to take in Palestinian refugees. The “aggressor” thing doesn’t apply because like I said, Palestine is not a country. Legally, it’s part of Israel. And we can broadly agree that the Palestinians have been oppressed for decades. The thing about oppression of human beings is, some will choose to live on their knees while others will choose to die on their feet. The status quo in Israel is unsustainable for both sides… I don't think the Palestinians have been blameless. Especially their leadership. But yes, they clearly have suffered at the hands of the Israelis, particularly the current administration. The rise in antisemitism here is appalling. Good news: Islamophobia also on the rise. Equality, yea!! And when talking about countries not welcoming P refugees: too of the list are other Arab countries and Iran. These are the biggest villains IMO. Fund Hamas, foment terrorism, but no refugees!!! Cool. |
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Post by soulflower on Oct 31, 2023 8:39:00 GMT -5
I don’t think the two situations are easily comparable. Ukraine is a sovereign state. Palestine is not. The human rights and dignity of Ukrainians is acknowledged almost universally while half of the world seems to think Palestinians deserve no human rights or dignity. Ukrainian refugees were welcomed most places while almost no country wants to take in Palestinian refugees. The “aggressor” thing doesn’t apply because like I said, Palestine is not a country. Legally, it’s part of Israel. And we can broadly agree that the Palestinians have been oppressed for decades. The thing about oppression of human beings is, some will choose to live on their knees while others will choose to die on their feet. The status quo in Israel is unsustainable for both sides… I don't think the Palestinians have been blameless. Especially their leadership. But yes, they clearly have suffered at the hands of the Israelis, particularly the current administration. The rise in antisemitism here is appalling. Good news: Islamophobia also on the rise. Equality, yea!! And when talking about countries not welcoming P refugees: too of the list are other Arab countries and Iran. These are the biggest villains IMO. Fund Hamas, foment terrorism, but no refugees!!! Cool. Maggie, I’m disappointed that you aren’t acknowledging that Arab countries have already taken in millions of refugees. I expected that you would know that. Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria have millions of Palestinians refugees already. I don’t blame Arab governments for not wanting to help Israel ethnically cleanse the Palestinians again. Israel’s far-right has declared their intention to flatten Gaza and make it uninhabitable… Expel all Palestinians from Gaza, recommends Israeli gov’t ministrywww.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population-transfer/ |
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Post by soulflower on Oct 31, 2023 9:19:49 GMT -5
The Biden administration has navigated the domestic politics of this issue horribly so far. The latest example:
While I don’t dispute that some people at pro-Palestine (not “anti-Israel”) protests have said offensive things, the majority of the protesters are just calling for peace, equality, and justice between Israel and the Palestinians.
Aside from that, most of these protesters are left-leaning and potentially Biden voters. So the Biden administration is throwing his own base under the bus by promoting Fox News’ framing of the protests.
Overall, this is a tougher issue to navigate for a Democratic President because Democrats are more divided on Israel than Republicans are. Also, Swing states like Michigan and Pennsylvania have significant concentrations of Muslim and/or Arab Americans. And they could prove decisive in the next election if it’s a close election.
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Post by msmaggie on Oct 31, 2023 10:01:28 GMT -5
I don't think the Palestinians have been blameless. Especially their leadership. But yes, they clearly have suffered at the hands of the Israelis, particularly the current administration. The rise in antisemitism here is appalling. Good news: Islamophobia also on the rise. Equality, yea!! And when talking about countries not welcoming P refugees: too of the list are other Arab countries and Iran. These are the biggest villains IMO. Fund Hamas, foment terrorism, but no refugees!!! Cool. Maggie, I’m disappointed that you aren’t acknowledging that Arab countries have already taken in millions of refugees. I expected that you would know that. Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria have millions of Palestinians refugees already. I don’t blame Arab governments for not wanting to help Israel ethnically cleanse the Palestinians again. Israel’s far-right has declared their intention to flatten Gaza and make it uninhabitable… Expel all Palestinians from Gaza, recommends Israeli gov’t ministrywww.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population-transfer/Read. www.hrw.org/legacy/campaigns/israel/return/arab-rtr.htmMost Palestinians in Arab countries have been there for decades. And often treated badly. I'm talking recently and specifically now. Where are they? |
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Post by soulflower on Oct 31, 2023 10:09:55 GMT -5
Maggie, I’m disappointed that you aren’t acknowledging that Arab countries have already taken in millions of refugees. I expected that you would know that. Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria have millions of Palestinians refugees already. I don’t blame Arab governments for not wanting to help Israel ethnically cleanse the Palestinians again. Israel’s far-right has declared their intention to flatten Gaza and make it uninhabitable… Expel all Palestinians from Gaza, recommends Israeli gov’t ministrywww.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population-transfer/Read. www.hrw.org/legacy/campaigns/israel/return/arab-rtr.htmMost Palestinians in Arab countries have been there for decades. And often treated badly. I'm talking recently and specifically now. Where are they? I’m aware of the history of Palestinian refugees in Arab countries. They thought it would be a temporary thing, not permanent. The fact that Israel didn’t allow Palestinian refugees to return is the exact reason why Arab countries don’t want to take millions more Palestinian refugees. They would be aiding and abetting Israel’s ethnic cleansing. My question to you is, why are you okay with Israel attempting to displace millions more Palestinians? |
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Post by summer23 on Oct 31, 2023 10:14:09 GMT -5
I’m aware of the history of Palestinian refugees in Arab countries. They thought it would be a temporary thing, not permanent. The fact that Israel didn’t allow Palestinian refugees to return is the exact reason why Arab countries don’t want to take millions more Palestinian refugees. They would be aiding and abetting Israel’s ethnic cleansing. My question to you is, why are you okay with Israel attempting to displace millions more Palestinians? My question to you is this. Why have you taken to asking assuming questions? This recent tactic is intellectually dishonest and a form of gaslighting. I thought you were above all that.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 31, 2023 10:38:25 GMT -5
I’m aware of the history of Palestinian refugees in Arab countries. They thought it would be a temporary thing, not permanent. The fact that Israel didn’t allow Palestinian refugees to return is the exact reason why Arab countries don’t want to take millions more Palestinian refugees. They would be aiding and abetting Israel’s ethnic cleansing. My question to you is, why are you okay with Israel attempting to displace millions more Palestinians? My question to you is this. Why have you taken to asking assuming questions? This recent tactic is intellectually dishonest and a form of gaslighting. I thought you were above all that. I’m merely asking Maggie to elaborate on her views given that one could interpret her response as justifying Israel displacing more Palestinians. Feel free to weigh in if you have any intelligent comments to add… |
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Post by summer23 on Oct 31, 2023 10:47:40 GMT -5
My question to you is this. Why have you taken to asking assuming questions? This recent tactic is intellectually dishonest and a form of gaslighting. I thought you were above all that. I’m merely asking Maggie to elaborate on her views given that one could interpret her response as justifying Israel displacing more Palestinians. Feel free to weigh in if you have any intelligent comments to add… No, it's not just "merely" asking anything. You have done this repeatedly to posters. Stop stomping your tootsies.
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Post by msmaggie on Oct 31, 2023 11:11:57 GMT -5
I’m aware of the history of Palestinian refugees in Arab countries. They thought it would be a temporary thing, not permanent. The fact that Israel didn’t allow Palestinian refugees to return is the exact reason why Arab countries don’t want to take millions more Palestinian refugees. They would be aiding and abetting Israel’s ethnic cleansing. My question to you is, why are you okay with Israel attempting to displace millions more Palestinians? I'm not ok; I simply don't have a better alternative for eliminating Hamas. And the fact that Arab countries don'e want permanent Palestinian residents is ironic: now they know how the Israelis feel. As I have stated before, I have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, particularly in light of Bibi's policies. But there is no justification for what Hamas did. Murder of innocent people is murder of innocent people--be they Jews or Palestinians. And while we are recalling history, the Palestinians thought it would be a temporary thing as well--they were fine with exiting to allow the Arab countries to exterminate the Israelis. So again, nobody without blame.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 31, 2023 11:30:31 GMT -5
I’m aware of the history of Palestinian refugees in Arab countries. They thought it would be a temporary thing, not permanent. The fact that Israel didn’t allow Palestinian refugees to return is the exact reason why Arab countries don’t want to take millions more Palestinian refugees. They would be aiding and abetting Israel’s ethnic cleansing. My question to you is, why are you okay with Israel attempting to displace millions more Palestinians? I'm not ok; I simply don't have a better alternative for eliminating Hamas. I’m afraid that many folks are where you are, resigned to the fact that Israel is in the process of ethnically cleansing Gaza and the West Bank and don’t think there’s much that can be done to stop it. I personally haven’t given up hope for a Two-State solution nor am I resigned to the view that Israelis and Palestinians can’t peacefully live together. They can but it will take some outside pressure on both sides. Most importantly, political courage from the US to tell Israel to knock it off with their expansive settlements and other human rights abuses. And the fact that Arab countries don'e want permanent Palestinian residents is ironic: now they know how the Israelis feel. As I have stated before, I have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, particularly in light of Bibi's policies. But there is no justification for what Hamas did. Murder of innocent people is murder of innocent people--be they Jews or Palestinians. And while we are recalling history, the Palestinians thought it would be a temporary thing as well--they were fine with exiting to allow the Arab countries to exterminate the Israelis. So again, nobody without blame. Most of these Arab countries that you speak of are poor, overcrowded, and also have a lot of recent refugees from Syria. So those issues and the fact that Israel isn’t likely to allow the Palestinians to return is why it makes perfect sense to me that they won’t help Israel expel millions more Palestinians… |
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Post by mrsmlh on Oct 31, 2023 11:56:30 GMT -5
I don't think Israel will stop doing what it's been doing (bulldozing Palestinian homes, building illegal settlements, etc.) until there are no Palestinians left in Gaza or the West Bank.
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Post by msmaggie on Oct 31, 2023 11:57:16 GMT -5
I'm not ok; I simply don't have a better alternative for eliminating Hamas. I’m afraid that many folks are where you are, resigned to the fact that Israel is in the process of ethnically cleansing Gaza and the West Bank and don’t think there’s much that can be done to stop it. I personally haven’t given up hope for a Two-State solution nor am I resigned to the view that Israelis and Palestinians can’t peacefully live together. They can but it will take some outside pressure on both sides. Most importantly, political courage from the US to tell Israel to knock it off with their expansive settlements and other human rights abuses. And the fact that Arab countries don'e want permanent Palestinian residents is ironic: now they know how the Israelis feel. As I have stated before, I have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, particularly in light of Bibi's policies. But there is no justification for what Hamas did. Murder of innocent people is murder of innocent people--be they Jews or Palestinians. And while we are recalling history, the Palestinians thought it would be a temporary thing as well--they were fine with exiting to allow the Arab countries to exterminate the Israelis. So again, nobody without blame. Most of these Arab countries that you speak of are poor, overcrowded, and also have a lot of recent refugees from Syria. So those issues and the fact that Israel isn’t likely to allow the Palestinians to return is why it makes perfect sense to me that they won’t help Israel expel millions more Palestinians… If they don't want to accept more refugees then don't support Hamas. A two state solution requires support and pressure from the Arab world. And many of these countries have plenty of petrodollars. They simply refuse to share the wealth with their citizens. Whole area is just f#@%ed up.
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Post by soulflower on Oct 31, 2023 13:27:36 GMT -5
I’m afraid that many folks are where you are, resigned to the fact that Israel is in the process of ethnically cleansing Gaza and the West Bank and don’t think there’s much that can be done to stop it. I personally haven’t given up hope for a Two-State solution nor am I resigned to the view that Israelis and Palestinians can’t peacefully live together. They can but it will take some outside pressure on both sides. Most importantly, political courage from the US to tell Israel to knock it off with their expansive settlements and other human rights abuses. Most of these Arab countries that you speak of are poor, overcrowded, and also have a lot of recent refugees from Syria. So those issues and the fact that Israel isn’t likely to allow the Palestinians to return is why it makes perfect sense to me that they won’t help Israel expel millions more Palestinians… If they don't want to accept more refugees then don't support Hamas. A two state solution requires support and pressure from the Arab world. And many of these countries have plenty of petrodollars. They simply refuse to share the wealth with their citizens. Whole area is just f#@%ed up. The only Arab government that I’m aware of that supports Hamas is Qatar. And to be honest, I don’t think Israel’s neighbors would oppose Israel or the UN declaring the Hamas government in Gaza null and void and installing the Palestinian Authority as the internationally recognized government of Gaza. No one on the geopolitical stage is defending Hamas. Half of the population of Gaza are children. Which means they ere too young to vote for Hamas the last time there was an election in Gaza. The civilians of Gaza shouldn’t be punished for the actions of Hamas… |
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Post by pickle20 on Oct 31, 2023 13:30:26 GMT -5
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Post by msmaggie on Oct 31, 2023 13:58:56 GMT -5
If they don't want to accept more refugees then don't support Hamas. A two state solution requires support and pressure from the Arab world. And many of these countries have plenty of petrodollars. They simply refuse to share the wealth with their citizens. Whole area is just f#@%ed up. The only Arab government that I’m aware of that supports Hamas is Qatar. And to be honest, I don’t think Israel’s neighbors would oppose Israel or the UN declaring the Hamas government in Gaza null and void and installing the Palestinian Authority as the internationally recognized government of Gaza. No one on the geopolitical stage is defending Hamas. Half of the population of Gaza are children. Which means they ere too young to vote for Hamas the last time there was an election in Gaza. The civilians of Gaza shouldn’t be punished for the actions of Hamas… And Turkey. Iran and Lebanon. I'm sure there is covert support from others. |
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Post by soulflower on Oct 31, 2023 14:18:27 GMT -5
The only Arab government that I’m aware of that supports Hamas is Qatar. And to be honest, I don’t think Israel’s neighbors would oppose Israel or the UN declaring the Hamas government in Gaza null and void and installing the Palestinian Authority as the internationally recognized government of Gaza. No one on the geopolitical stage is defending Hamas. Half of the population of Gaza are children. Which means they ere too young to vote for Hamas the last time there was an election in Gaza. The civilians of Gaza shouldn’t be punished for the actions of Hamas… And Turkey. Iran and Lebanon. I'm sure there is covert support from others. Turkey and Iran aren’t Arab countries but they have given some support to Hamas. I think Iran’s role in dealing with Hamas is often overstated in our domestic politics because Iran is easier to criticize than Qatar or Saudi Arabia. In reality, Hamas’ closest ally is Qatar. In the bigger picture, I don’t agree with the assumption that Hamas was put up to this by other countries in the region. What seems more likely to have motivated their actions was the ongoing normalization of relations between Israel and Arab countries that began under Trump and continued under Biden. The Israel-Palestine problem was largely ignored or not resolved by those negotiations which always seemed like a glaring omission. Hamas, with their acts on Oct. 7th seems to have blown up attempts by Arab countries to have normal relations with Israel. And that may have been one of their objectives. |
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Post by WKDWZD on Oct 31, 2023 15:35:57 GMT -5
It's known as 'anti-Semitism'. 
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Post by msmaggie on Oct 31, 2023 16:01:40 GMT -5
And Turkey. Iran and Lebanon. I'm sure there is covert support from others. Turkey and Iran aren’t Arab countries but they have given some support to Hamas. I think Iran’s role in dealing with Hamas is often overstated in our domestic politics because Iran is easier to criticize than Qatar or Saudi Arabia. In reality, Hamas’ closest ally is Qatar. In the bigger picture, I don’t agree with the assumption that Hamas was put up to this by other countries in the region. What seems more likely to have motivated their actions was the ongoing normalization of relations between Israel and Arab countries that began under Trump and continued under Biden. The Israel-Palestine problem was largely ignored or not resolved by those negotiations which always seemed like a glaring omission. Hamas, with their acts on Oct. 7th seems to have blown up attempts by Arab countries to have normal relations with Israel. And that may have been one of their objectives. We're talking about a terrorist organization with Hamas. They have succeeded in conflating themselves with the Palestinians with folks like you. Big win for them. E.g. I haven't seen you condemn Hamas' actions. Are you afraid condemning Hamas is condemning the Palestinians? |
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Post by soulflower on Oct 31, 2023 16:34:53 GMT -5
Turkey and Iran aren’t Arab countries but they have given some support to Hamas. I think Iran’s role in dealing with Hamas is often overstated in our domestic politics because Iran is easier to criticize than Qatar or Saudi Arabia. In reality, Hamas’ closest ally is Qatar. In the bigger picture, I don’t agree with the assumption that Hamas was put up to this by other countries in the region. What seems more likely to have motivated their actions was the ongoing normalization of relations between Israel and Arab countries that began under Trump and continued under Biden. The Israel-Palestine problem was largely ignored or not resolved by those negotiations which always seemed like a glaring omission. Hamas, with their acts on Oct. 7th seems to have blown up attempts by Arab countries to have normal relations with Israel. And that may have been one of their objectives. We're talking about a terrorist organization with Hamas. They have succeeded in conflating themselves with the Palestinians with folks like you. Big win for them. Hamas is the current official government in Gaza. I’m content with Hamas being deposed and replaced with a new local government in Gaza. I’m not and have never been a fan of Hamas. Israeli hardliners don’t want the Palestinian Authority in charge of Gaza because they fear it would bring them closer to having a Palestinian State. Meanwhile, Israeli settlers are currently doing pogroms in the West Bank where Hamas is not in control: (B’tselem is an Israeli human rights organization) Hamas wouldn’t have a reason to exist if not for Israel’s oppression and their attempts to resist a Palestinian State. Hence why I say Hamas is a symptom, not the root cause of the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Obviously this thing has gone on for far longer than Hamas has existed… |
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Post by msmaggie on Oct 31, 2023 16:38:20 GMT -5
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