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Post by pickle20 on Jun 5, 2024 10:30:15 GMT -5
Yes, but our discussion is about the antebellum south where slave owners were white and slaves were black. And many southerners viewed them as subhuman. It doesn't get any more evil than that. Not all southern slave owners were white. www.abbevilleinstitute.org/black-slaveowners/I wonder if the slaves thought slavery wasn't evil if their owners were black. Being as Black slaveholders harshly disciplined their slaves and sold them at auction like their white counterparts I'd imagine they felt the same, or perhaps confused and/or disappointed that someone of their own race would treat them that way. Especially if the slaveowner had once been a slave themselves. But we're in the weeds here. Slavery is evil. The Confederacy was evil.
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Post by smokey1 on Jun 5, 2024 10:59:48 GMT -5
Being as Black slaveholders harshly disciplined their slaves and sold them at auction like their white counterparts I'd imagine they felt the same, or perhaps confused and/or disappointed that someone of their own race would treat them that way. Especially if the slaveowner had once been a slave themselves. But we're in the weeds here. Slavery is evil. The Confederacy was evil. Are the countries where slavery is legal or accepted today evil too?
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jun 5, 2024 11:05:46 GMT -5
It does not matter what race the slave is, or what race the slave owner is, or whether a polity has passed laws that legalize the practice. Slavery is evil. Therefore, perforce, slavers and those who fight on their behalf are evil whether they understand this or not and whether they have "other" reasons for entering that fight. Polities where slavery is made legal by law are evil to at least that degree. The Confederacy, founded to perpetuate slavery by the words of its founders, was evil.
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Post by pickle20 on Jun 5, 2024 11:28:57 GMT -5
Being as Black slaveholders harshly disciplined their slaves and sold them at auction like their white counterparts I'd imagine they felt the same, or perhaps confused and/or disappointed that someone of their own race would treat them that way. Especially if the slaveowner had once been a slave themselves. But we're in the weeds here. Slavery is evil. The Confederacy was evil. Are the countries where slavery is legal or accepted today evil too? I'd say that any government that allows slavery to exist legally is evil. And let us not forget that slavery and white supremacy was in the first sentence of any document that explained what the CSA was and stood for.
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Post by smokey1 on Jun 5, 2024 14:04:37 GMT -5
It does not matter what race the slave is, or what race the slave owner is, or whether a polity has passed laws that legalize the practice. Slavery is evil. Therefore, perforce, slavers and those who fight on their behalf are evil whether they understand this or not and whether they have "other" reasons for entering that fight. Polities where slavery is made legal by law are evil to at least that degree. The Confederacy, founded to perpetuate slavery by the words of its founders, was evil.By today's standards.
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Post by pickle20 on Jun 5, 2024 14:09:16 GMT -5
It does not matter what race the slave is, or what race the slave owner is, or whether a polity has passed laws that legalize the practice. Slavery is evil. Therefore, perforce, slavers and those who fight on their behalf are evil whether they understand this or not and whether they have "other" reasons for entering that fight. Polities where slavery is made legal by law are evil to at least that degree. The Confederacy, founded to perpetuate slavery by the words of its founders, was evil.By today's standards. Not true. There were abolitionists and people like Frederick Douglass who were telling anyone who would listen that slavery was an abomination and a contradiction to the Constitution. Before the war started.
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Post by smokey1 on Jun 5, 2024 14:10:59 GMT -5
Are the countries where slavery is legal or accepted today evil too? I'd say that any government that allows slavery to exist legally is evil. And let us not forget that slavery and white supremacy was in the first sentence of any document that explained what the CSA was and stood for. That was like pulling teeth to get you admit that current slavery is evil. Sounds like you have a double standard based on race. You appear to be incensed by slavery that was abolished over a century ago but don't care much about it where it still exists today. Do you believe slavery by white people is worse than slavery by POC?
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jun 5, 2024 15:13:07 GMT -5
If you have to beat a man to get him to do what you want him to do and you do not clearly understand that you are evil then you are morally bankrupt. That's all slavers, and by extension, those who work on their behalf.
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Post by smokey1 on Jun 5, 2024 15:46:30 GMT -5
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Post by pickle20 on Jun 5, 2024 18:35:35 GMT -5
Sorry Smokey you seem to be in the middle of another Strawman argument. I never said the views about slavery back then are the same as they are now. Not even close. I said there were an abolitionists seeking to end slavery back then. Come on man debate in good faith for a change.
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Post by smokey1 on Jun 5, 2024 18:52:10 GMT -5
Sorry Smokey you seem to be in the middle of another Strawman argument. I never said the views about slavery back then are the same as they are now. Not even close. I said there were an abolitionists seeking to end slavery back then. Come on man debate in good faith for a change. And I never said there weren't abolitionists back then either.
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Post by pickle20 on Jun 5, 2024 18:53:09 GMT -5
Sorry Smokey you seem to be in the middle of another Strawman argument. I never said the views about slavery back then are the same as they are now. Not even close. I said there were an abolitionists seeking to end slavery back then. Come on man debate in good faith for a change. And I never said there weren't abolitionists back then either. Then why did you respond to my post that way? Stop being so emotional Smokey. 😂
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Post by smokey1 on Jun 5, 2024 18:58:17 GMT -5
And I never said there weren't abolitionists back then either. Then why did you respond to my post that way? Stop being so emotional Smokey. 😂 I am not being emotional. I responded to EY's post where he stated that the Confederacy was evil by replying to him "by today's standards" to which you responded "not true". I simply cited an article that examined the argument about judging historical figures by today's standards. What's so emotional about that?
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Post by pickle20 on Jun 5, 2024 19:05:30 GMT -5
Then why did you respond to my post that way? Stop being so emotional Smokey. 😂 I am not being emotional. I responded to EY's post where he stated that the Confederacy was evil by replying to him "by today's standards" to which you responded "not true". I simply cited an article that examined the argument about judging historical figures by today's standards. What's so emotional about that? First of all, chill out. 😎 You objected to something you eventually agreed with. Sounds like an emotional response to me. 🤷♂️
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Post by guido2 on Jun 5, 2024 19:08:20 GMT -5
It does not matter what race the slave is, or what race the slave owner is, or whether a polity has passed laws that legalize the practice. Slavery is evil. Therefore, perforce, slavers and those who fight on their behalf are evil whether they understand this or not and whether they have "other" reasons for entering that fight. Polities where slavery is made legal by law are evil to at least that degree. The Confederacy, founded to perpetuate slavery by the words of its founders, was evil.By today's standards. Ohhh great. He is trying to pull the old House of Mirrors tactic in a debate. Come on Smokey, you got more than that......... sheeesh. I mean, you speak in one tense or time period in one post, then you shift to some other time frame. Still trying to make a point on your old post using the more present one. Then you start talking about other nations in this time period. But use that to support your first post that pretty much said it was Okey Dokey for the confederacy to fight for keeping slavery. Mother of God! 🤯
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Post by smokey1 on Jun 5, 2024 21:55:39 GMT -5
Ohhh great. He is trying to pull the old House of Mirrors tactic in a debate. Come on Smokey, you got more than that......... sheeesh. I mean, you speak in one tense or time period in one post, then you shift to some other time frame. Still trying to make a point on your old post using the more present one. Then you start talking about other nations in this time period. But use that to support your first post that pretty much said it was Okey Dokey for the confederacy to fight for keeping slavery.
Mother of God! 🤯 You don't even understand most of what people post here and then you come up with this fabrication. I never said any such thing. You and Biden would make a good team. Neither one of you knows what is going on.
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up2
Full Member
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Posts: 1,873
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Post by up2 on Jun 6, 2024 11:23:06 GMT -5
I used to think instead of tearing down confederate monuments, we should erect monuments immediately adjacent depicting alternate heroes and important people including people of color involved with the abolition of the institution of slavery so that maybe a public conversation of some counter-points would be appropriate. People honoring their heritage, both free and those enslaved struggling to gain their freedom.
But looking at how such conversations seem to disintegrate on this board, I'm not sure what I was thinking is a good idea. We just don't know how to carry on a conversation whose topic is difficult and provocative in nature. Sad...
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Post by smokey1 on Jun 6, 2024 11:42:36 GMT -5
I used to think instead of tearing down confederate monuments, we should erect monuments immediately adjacent depicting alternate heroes and important people including people of color involved with the abolition of the institution of slavery so that maybe a public conversation of some counter-points would be appropriate. People honoring their heritage, both free and those enslaved struggling to gain their freedom. But looking at how such conversations seem to disintegrate on this board, I'm not sure what I was thinking is a good idea. We just don't know how to carry on a conversation whose topic is difficult and provocative in nature. Sad... Put whatever monument you want on private property and pay for it yourself. No problem.
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Post by Ranger John on Jun 6, 2024 12:15:33 GMT -5
I used to think instead of tearing down confederate monuments, we should erect monuments immediately adjacent depicting alternate heroes and important people including people of color involved with the abolition of the institution of slavery so that maybe a public conversation of some counter-points would be appropriate. People honoring their heritage, both free and those enslaved struggling to gain their freedom. But looking at how such conversations seem to disintegrate on this board, I'm not sure what I was thinking is a good idea. We just don't know how to carry on a conversation whose topic is difficult and provocative in nature. Sad... I don't think there's anything wrong with this. As noted previously, the reason behind a lot of confederate monuments is they were erected out of a sense of loss for people. A very large number of soldiers never made it back from the war. Families didn't get a body to bury, or a grave marker for their sons, brothers and fathers. So the monument got erected as a place to grieve for the town's collectively lost dead. If you want to put up an educational panel about the Civil War that discusses abolitionism next to a memorial to give it context and teach the next generation, I think that's great.
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Post by pickle20 on Jun 6, 2024 13:19:06 GMT -5
I used to think instead of tearing down confederate monuments, we should erect monuments immediately adjacent depicting alternate heroes and important people including people of color involved with the abolition of the institution of slavery so that maybe a public conversation of some counter-points would be appropriate. People honoring their heritage, both free and those enslaved struggling to gain their freedom. But looking at how such conversations seem to disintegrate on this board, I'm not sure what I was thinking is a good idea. We just don't know how to carry on a conversation whose topic is difficult and provocative in nature. Sad... I don't think there's anything wrong with this. As noted previously, the reason behind a lot of confederate monuments is they were erected out of a sense of loss for people. A very large number of soldiers never made it back from the war. Families didn't get a body to bury, or a grave marker for their sons, brothers and fathers. So the monument got erected as a place to grieve for the town's collectively lost dead. If you want to put up an educational panel about the Civil War that discusses abolitionism next to a memorial to give it context and teach the next generation, I think that's great. I have also advocated for plaques at the base of confederate states to put the history into context. But if cities and towns want these statues off their land, who are you to tell them they can't remove them? Smokey says move them to private land and I agree. You two should pool your money to make that happen. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Post by smokey1 on Jun 6, 2024 13:52:49 GMT -5
I don't think there's anything wrong with this. As noted previously, the reason behind a lot of confederate monuments is they were erected out of a sense of loss for people. A very large number of soldiers never made it back from the war. Families didn't get a body to bury, or a grave marker for their sons, brothers and fathers. So the monument got erected as a place to grieve for the town's collectively lost dead. If you want to put up an educational panel about the Civil War that discusses abolitionism next to a memorial to give it context and teach the next generation, I think that's great. I have also advocated for plaques at the base of confederate states to put the history into context. But if cities and towns want these statues off their land, who are you to tell them they can't remove them? Smokey says move them to private land and I agree. You two should pool your money to make that happen. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) Already happening. Heritage groups have raised and are raising funds to move the memorials they can acquire on to private property. The Talbot Boys statue from Easton was recently moved to the New Market Battlefield in VA.
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Post by pickle20 on Jun 6, 2024 14:17:57 GMT -5
I have also advocated for plaques at the base of confederate states to put the history into context. But if cities and towns want these statues off their land, who are you to tell them they can't remove them? Smokey says move them to private land and I agree. You two should pool your money to make that happen. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) Already happening. Heritage groups have raised and are raising funds to move the memorials they can acquire on to private property. The Talbot Boys statue from Easton was recently moved to the New Market Battlefield in VA. Cool, that's where they belong, somewhere with the proper context, like a graveyard or a battleground.
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Post by guido2 on Jun 6, 2024 15:13:35 GMT -5
Ohhh great. He is trying to pull the old House of Mirrors tactic in a debate. Come on Smokey, you got more than that......... sheeesh. I mean, you speak in one tense or time period in one post, then you shift to some other time frame. Still trying to make a point on your old post using the more present one. Then you start talking about other nations in this time period. But use that to support your first post that pretty much said it was Okey Dokey for the confederacy to fight for keeping slavery.
Mother of God! 🤯 You don't even understand most of what people post here and then you come up with this fabrication. I never said any such thing. You and Biden would make a good team. Neither one of you knows what is going on. Ahhh, huh.
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Post by guido2 on Jun 6, 2024 15:20:36 GMT -5
I used to think instead of tearing down confederate monuments, we should erect monuments immediately adjacent depicting alternate heroes and important people including people of color involved with the abolition of the institution of slavery so that maybe a public conversation of some counter-points would be appropriate. People honoring their heritage, both free and those enslaved struggling to gain their freedom. But looking at how such conversations seem to disintegrate on this board, I'm not sure what I was thinking is a good idea. We just don't know how to carry on a conversation whose topic is difficult and provocative in nature. Sad... Actually it is an excellent idea. But yah know what..... those would have been torn down almost immediately. If they ever got an opportunity to even set up the base for it. And no one in gooberment in those red-states would try to stop it. In fact, it is very likely, they would be busy constructing laws to prevent it. Face it..... that is the game they play. Yah know 'good people on both sides' BS. And I will repeat once again; I truly believe that Lincoln screwed the pooch.
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Post by guido2 on Jun 6, 2024 17:02:18 GMT -5
Already happening. Heritage groups have raised and are raising funds to move the memorials they can acquire on to private property. The Talbot Boys statue from Easton was recently moved to the New Market Battlefield in VA. Cool, that's where they belong, somewhere with the proper context, like a graveyard or a battleground. Agreed!
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Post by zenwalk on Jun 6, 2024 18:15:20 GMT -5
Already happening. Heritage groups have raised and are raising funds to move the memorials they can acquire on to private property. The Talbot Boys statue from Easton was recently moved to the New Market Battlefield in VA. Cool, that's where they belong, somewhere with the proper context, like a graveyard or a battleground. They ought to be melted down and re-cast as souvenir Eiffel Towers to be sold on eBay to benefit black schools.
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Post by Ranger John on Jun 6, 2024 18:17:40 GMT -5
Cool, that's where they belong, somewhere with the proper context, like a graveyard or a battleground. They ought to be melted down and re-cast as souvenir Eiffel Towers to be sold on eBay to benefit black schools. Yes, and Pride flags should be burned and used to grit the sidewalk when it snows. See how this works? Again you want to deny people their symbols because you don't like them; but you get all indignant when the roles are reversed because you think the world revolves around you.
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Post by zenwalk on Jun 6, 2024 18:34:15 GMT -5
They ought to be melted down and re-cast as souvenir Eiffel Towers to be sold on eBay to benefit black schools. Yes, and Pride flags should be burned and used to grit the sidewalk when it snows. See how this works? Again you want to deny people their symbols because you don't like them; but you get all indignant when the roles are reversed because you think the world revolves around you. Let's see how it works then: One side's symbols celebrate a slaveholder state. The other side's symbols are vandalized by the Right by flying them disrespectfully upside down to advertise their coming big boy wears long pants revolution. Why not wipe your ass on it too? That's how that works.
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Post by Ranger John on Jun 6, 2024 18:44:32 GMT -5
Yes, and Pride flags should be burned and used to grit the sidewalk when it snows. See how this works? Again you want to deny people their symbols because you don't like them; but you get all indignant when the roles are reversed because you think the world revolves around you. Let's see how it works then: One side's symbols celebrate a slaveholder state. The other side's symbols are vandalized by the Right by flying them disrespectfully upside down to advertise their coming big boy wears long pants revolution. Why not wipe your ass on it too? That's how that works. That's a lie. One side's symbols are a memorial to fallen family members because the families never got a body to bury or a marker in a cemetery. But then I really shouldn't expect you to be well informed enough to know this. You keep demonstrating you're not interested in any other perspectives but your own. Again, it's that narcissism. It's a YOU problem. If you want your symbols left alone, you need to leave other people's symbols alone. It's that whole "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" thing that is wholly incompatible with a narcissistic personality disorder.
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Post by smokey1 on Jun 6, 2024 21:00:27 GMT -5
Yes, and Pride flags should be burned and used to grit the sidewalk when it snows. See how this works? Again you want to deny people their symbols because you don't like them; but you get all indignant when the roles are reversed because you think the world revolves around you. Let's see how it works then: One side's symbols celebrate a slaveholder state. The other side's symbols are vandalized by the Right by flying them disrespectfully upside down to advertise their coming big boy wears long pants revolution. Why not wipe your ass on it too? That's how that works. No, one memorializes soldiers who fought and died in a war that shouldn't have been. It's not disrespectful to fly the US flag upside down. Its a symbol of distress.
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