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Post by soulflower on Aug 15, 2023 14:28:39 GMT -5
It really is strange how so many Republicans have ZDS. It’s not if you remember that Zelensky was caught in the middle of Trump’s first impeachment. 2019 feels like ancient history in politics years.
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Post by pickle20 on Aug 15, 2023 14:32:04 GMT -5
It really is strange how so many Republicans have ZDS. It’s not if you remember that Zelensky was caught in the middle of Trump’s first impeachment. 2019 feels like ancient history in politics years. I still don't see it.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Aug 15, 2023 15:41:46 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Aug 15, 2023 17:11:43 GMT -5
"Either we lead, or China & Russia lead." There's literally no evidence that the above assumption is true. Iran and Saudi Arabia making peace without us proves that we aren't indispensable. Life will go on if the US isn't involved in everyone's business. Christie and Haley have the absolute dumbest takes on foreign policy in the GOP primaries. Instead of focusing on getting America back on track and addressing our major problems at home, they want more of the same on foreign policy. And I welcome the trend of Republicans turning away from John McCain style conservative foreign policy.
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Post by pickle20 on Aug 15, 2023 17:47:01 GMT -5
"Either we lead, or China & Russia lead." There's literally no evidence that the above assumption is true. Iran and Saudi Arabia making peace without us proves that we aren't indispensable. Life will go on if the US isn't involved in everyone's business. Christie and Haley have the absolute dumbest takes on foreign policy in the GOP primaries. Instead of focusing on getting America back on track and addressing our major problems at home, they want more of the same on foreign policy. And I welcome the trend of Republicans turning away from John McCain style conservative foreign policy. How much land did Iran forfeit to Saudi Arabia for their peace? We've been spending a lot of money to improve the US since Biden took office. We can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.
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Post by soulflower on Aug 15, 2023 17:53:12 GMT -5
"Either we lead, or China & Russia lead." There's literally no evidence that the above assumption is true. Iran and Saudi Arabia making peace without us proves that we aren't indispensable. Life will go on if the US isn't involved in everyone's business. Christie and Haley have the absolute dumbest takes on foreign policy in the GOP primaries. Instead of focusing on getting America back on track and addressing our major problems at home, they want more of the same on foreign policy. And I welcome the trend of Republicans turning away from John McCain style conservative foreign policy. How much land did Iran forfeit to Saudi Arabia for their peace? We've been spending a lot of money to improve the US since Biden took office. We can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. Iran and Saudi Arabia weren’t in a hot war. They’ve fought each other via proxies for years. Now things are cooling off between them. It takes more than money to to solve the big problems at home like homelessness, gun violence, drug overdoses, suicides, etc. Those problems aren’t easy to solve so politicians focus on other stuff and neglect the things Americans actually want them to solve. I’m fine with walking and chewing bubble gum as long as it makes sense. It makes no sense for America to prioritize the war in Ukraine given that we don’t have a dog in the fight. Let the EU lead on subsidizing Ukraine. The war is happening on their continent not ours. We have enough problems in our own hemisphere…
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Post by pickle20 on Aug 15, 2023 18:27:23 GMT -5
How much land did Iran forfeit to Saudi Arabia for their peace? We've been spending a lot of money to improve the US since Biden took office. We can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. Iran and Saudi Arabia weren’t in a hot war. They’ve fought each other via proxies for years. Now things are cooling off between them. It takes more than money to to solve the big problems at home like homelessness, gun violence, drug overdoses, suicides, etc. Those problems aren’t easy to solve so politicians focus on other stuff and neglect the things Americans actually want them to solve. I’m fine with walking and chewing bubble gum as long as it makes sense. It makes no sense for America to prioritize the war in Ukraine given that we don’t have a dog in the fight. Let the EU lead on subsidizing Ukraine. The war is happening on their continent not ours. We have enough problems in our own hemisphere… I do agree Europe should take more interest in this war than us. I also agree it's fair to ask how much we should continue to send to Ukraine. However, as long as they're willing to fight, and die, for their homeland all we can do is support them or hang them out to dry. I don't believe Russia is going to negotiate in good faith.
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Post by soulflower on Aug 15, 2023 18:42:12 GMT -5
Iran and Saudi Arabia weren’t in a hot war. They’ve fought each other via proxies for years. Now things are cooling off between them. It takes more than money to to solve the big problems at home like homelessness, gun violence, drug overdoses, suicides, etc. Those problems aren’t easy to solve so politicians focus on other stuff and neglect the things Americans actually want them to solve. I’m fine with walking and chewing bubble gum as long as it makes sense. It makes no sense for America to prioritize the war in Ukraine given that we don’t have a dog in the fight. Let the EU lead on subsidizing Ukraine. The war is happening on their continent not ours. We have enough problems in our own hemisphere… I do agree Europe should take more interest in this war than us. I also agree it's fair to ask how much we should continue to send to Ukraine. However, as long as they're willing to fight, and die, for their homeland all we can do is support them or hang them out to dry. I don't believe Russia is going to negotiate in good faith. I don’t think either side wants to negotiate. It’s my hope that there’s a breakthrough in peace talks but it seems unlikely. Ukraine can fight to regain their territory as long as they want but they’re not entitled to get our money forever. And this isn’t the old Republican party. Ukraine war funding will become a political issue in the upcoming year…
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Post by soulflower on Aug 16, 2023 8:39:41 GMT -5
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Post by pickle20 on Aug 16, 2023 9:47:30 GMT -5
yeah they should be separate.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Aug 16, 2023 10:21:00 GMT -5
What part of, ‘they do it this way every year’ do you not understand?
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Post by soulflower on Aug 16, 2023 11:46:46 GMT -5
What part of, ‘they do it this way every year’ do you not understand? I understand it very well. That doesn’t mean it’s good or that I have to accept the screwed up way that things get done in DC. You’re welcome to be content with the status quo. I’m not and that’s why I don’t support either party…
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Post by stevez51 on Aug 16, 2023 14:19:54 GMT -5
What part of, ‘they do it this way every year’ do you not understand? If they want to do it this way its a pretty bad look. Let's aid Maui and send money to Ukraine. I'd say 95% of the people will say, hell no to Ukraine.
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Post by soulflower on Aug 17, 2023 8:28:02 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Aug 23, 2023 8:50:36 GMT -5
New Ad from the Heritage foundation
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Post by pickle20 on Aug 23, 2023 11:07:56 GMT -5
New Ad from the Heritage foundation The problem for Heritage Foundation is that there are Republicans who are still in favor of supporting Ukraine.
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Post by soulflower on Aug 23, 2023 11:26:24 GMT -5
New Ad from the Heritage foundation The problem for Heritage Foundation is that there are Republicans who are still in favor of supporting Ukraine. Right and they’re trying to persuade the Republicans in Congress to think before the next vote on Ukraine war spending. Sending aid is not as politically popular now as it was a year ago. Look, we wouldn’t even be discussing this if the war wasn’t approaching two years. It’s not reasonable to expect a foreign country to get huge blank checks from us forever. Now is as good a time as ever to debate how we should proceed going forward and ask Biden to explain what the end game is and how he intends to get there…
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Post by soulflower on Sept 4, 2023 18:15:32 GMT -5
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Post by JoyinMudville on Sept 4, 2023 20:20:53 GMT -5
The problem for Heritage Foundation is that there are Republicans who are still in favor of supporting Ukraine. Now is as good a time as ever to debate This is just so disingenuous. Of course there will be a debate, which will give the Marjorie Taylor Greene's a chance to argue for pulling the rug out from under Ukraine and handing Putin a big victory. And then there will be a vote. That's the way it works but you suddenly seem to have a problem with it. The reality is that there is a very real chance that the MAGAhats will use their position on the Rules Committee to prevent a supplemental on Ukraine from even reaching the floor. That would mean that there wouldn't be a debate. I'm sure you would have a big problem with that.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Sept 4, 2023 20:29:20 GMT -5
HOGWASH Your dreaded neocons, and a lot of other people, understand something that you just can't seem to grasp. The fastest way to a lasting peace in Europe is to soundly defeat Putin's troops on the battlefield and end his ethnic cleansing campaign in the Ukrainian territory that he has tried to conquer. Pulling the rug out from under Ukraine will just 1) Hand Putin a victory 2) Condemn hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Ukrainians to even more torture, rape, deportations, and summary executions at the hands of a brutal and repressive occupying force 3) Set the stage for further conflict down the road, probably a Russian attempt to capture Odesa and Transnistria
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Post by soulflower on Sept 5, 2023 3:58:18 GMT -5
HOGWASH Your dreaded neocons, and a lot of other people, understand something that you just can't seem to grasp. The fastest way to a lasting peace in Europe is to soundly defeat Putin's troops Weird that someone who claims he protested against the Iraq war is triggered by criticisms of neoconservatives. The Neocons have been wrong about every foreign conflict since Iraq. Ukraine will be no different. You refuse to accept that what you dream of is improbable just like me starting a professional baseball career at age 40. Policy shouldn’t be based on wishful thinking or improbable things happening. Neither side can cleanly or decisively win the war in Ukraine. There will be no “victory” for Putin. (PS: Improbable doesn’t mean impossible)
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Post by soulflower on Sept 5, 2023 4:49:22 GMT -5
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Post by JoyinMudville on Sept 5, 2023 11:12:49 GMT -5
Weird that someone who claims he protested against the Iraq war Nothing weird about it all. Ukraine is not Iraq. I can distinguish right from wrong
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Post by soulflower on Sept 5, 2023 11:46:45 GMT -5
Weird that someone who claims he protested against the Iraq war Nothing weird about it all. Ukraine is not Iraq. I can distinguish right from wrong So too can I. We are in 100% agreement that Russia's invasion of Ukraine was wrong. I assume we also agree that Israel killing unarmed Palestinian protesters is wrong. I assume we also agree that Saudi Arabia gunning down Ethiopian migrants is wrong. However, we may disagree on how the US should respond to the above examples. Do you propose we arm the Palestinians to fight to recapture their land from Israel? Do you propose we arm proxies against the Saudis? If you answers are "no" to both of the above questions, how can you criticize me for having nuanced or neutral views on how the US should respond to Russia's invasion of Ukraine? I'm a realist on foreign policy and an idealist on domestic policy. On foreign policy, I can separate my views of "right vs wrong" from what (I believe) makes practical sense for the US geopolitically. Thanks to Biden, the War Party is back
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Post by JoyinMudville on Sept 5, 2023 13:46:18 GMT -5
I'm a realist on foreign policy and an idealist on domestic policy. If you were actually a realist on foreign policy you'd understand that Putin doesn't negotiate in good faith and that appeasing genocidal dictators never works. The actual realist understands that Putin is a lost cause but that Ukraine can become an integrated part of Europe and a staunch ally for generations to come.
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Post by soulflower on Sept 5, 2023 14:04:05 GMT -5
I'm a realist on foreign policy and an idealist on domestic policy. If you were actually a realist on foreign policy you'd understand that Putin doesn't negotiate in good faith and that appeasing genocidal dictators never works. The actual realist understands that Putin is a lost cause but that Ukraine can become an integrated part of Europe and a staunch ally for generations to come. That's totally an idealistic view that ignores Ukraine's problems with massive corruption and extremism and the fact that they're unfortunately Russia's neighbor. Ukraine has been an ally of the West but until they overcome their internal divisions, the war, and corruption, they'll never be attractive as future members of NATO or the EU. The realist argument on the Russia-Ukraine war is described in articles like the one below that I posted in the Gen. Milley thread: The Case for Negotiating with RussiaCharap believes that neither side has the resources to knock the other out of the fight entirely. Other analysts have also voiced this opinion, most notably General Mark Milley, the Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, who in a controversial comment last November compared the situation with the stalemate that prevailed toward the end of the First World War and suggested that it may be time to seek a negotiated solution. But the other side of this debate has been more vocal.
To Charap, “The strategic defeat of Russia has already taken place.” It took place in the first months of the war, when Russian aggression and Ukrainian resistance helped galvanize a united European response. “Their international reputation, their international economic position, these ties with Europe that had been constructed over decades—literally, physically constructed—were rendered useless overnight,” Charap said. The failure to take Kyiv was the decisive blow. “Their regional clout, the flight of talent—the strategic consequences have been huge, by any measure.” And, from a U.S. perspective, Charap argues, any gains during the past sixteen months have been marginal. “A weakened Russia is good,” he said. “But a totally isolated, rogue Russia, a North Korea Russia—not so much.” A year ago, Russia was not deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure; now it regularly bombs Ukraine’s energy grid and port facilities. With every day, the chances of an accident or an incident that brings nato directly into the conflict increase. Charap is asking just how much that risk is worth.
“It’s not necessarily that I think Ukraine needs to make concessions,” he said. “It’s that I don’t see the alternative to that eventually happening.”The neoconservative argument is that diplomacy and negotiations with dictators is always "bad" or "weak" and they frequently use the "Neville Chamberlain" trope. The neocons typically omit or fail to acknowledge the diplomatic successes that Nixon and Reagan had in their dealings with Vietnam, China, and the USSR.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Sept 5, 2023 14:26:55 GMT -5
If you were actually a realist on foreign policy you'd understand that Putin doesn't negotiate in good faith and that appeasing genocidal dictators never works. The actual realist understands that Putin is a lost cause but that Ukraine can become an integrated part of Europe and a staunch ally for generations to come.That's totally an idealistic view The neoconservative argument is that diplomacy and negotiations with dictators is always "bad" or "weak" and they frequently use the "Neville Chamberlain" trope. The neocons typically omit or fail to acknowledge the diplomatic successes that Nixon and Reagan had in their dealings with Vietnam, China, and the USSR. No, it is reflective of the fact that there is widespread support in the EU for further integrating Ukraine into western Europe (including EU membership) and that Ukraine is in regular talks with NATO about joining the alliance. There's been a massive shift on this topic since before Putin's invasion. THAT is the reality. And, again with your neocon fixation. We tried diplomacy with Putin. It failed. He invaded because he was always going to invade because it is a genocidal war for territorial conquest. Care to address this? www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-757709
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Post by soulflower on Sept 5, 2023 15:01:08 GMT -5
No, it is reflective of the fact that there is widespread support in the EU for further integrating Ukraine into western Europe (including EU membership) and that Ukraine is in regular talks with NATO about joining the alliance. There's been a massive shift on this topic since before Putin's invasion. THAT is the reality. The "reality" is the US and EU have been dangling NATO and EU membership like a carrot over Ukraine's head for the last decade or so. The US first invited Ukraine to join NATO in 2008. EU membership won't happen until Ukraine stabilizes their economy and reduces their political corruption and NATO membership won't happen as long as Ukraine's borders are contested. We should be able to agree on those objective truths if we're being realistic. Stoltenberg: Ukraine Must Win War Before Discussing NATO MembershipWhere we disagree is, you believe Ukraine militarily defeating Russia is within the realm of plausible outcomes in this war while I'm far more pessimistic about Ukraine's chances of defeating Russia militarily. And, again with your neocon fixation. It's not a "fixation". It's a real ideology held by some of Biden's top foreign policy advisors and people with neoconservative ideology have a disproportionate influence over the foreign policy direction of both political parties. You frequently cite sources who espouse neoconservative ideology (ie ISW, David Frum, Anne Applebaum, Fred Kagan, Bill Kristol etc) then get flustered when I point it out. I thought we were done with that ideology after the Iraq war but those personalities resurfaced during the 'Arab Spring' and Syrian civil war. We tried diplomacy with Putin. It failed. When was this? What was offered to Putin? When did Biden, Trump, or Obama endorse the Minsk peace deals? When did anyone give Putin assurances that Ukraine won't join NATO? Where did Biden stand on the peace deal to end the war that was on the table in April of 2022? I can't speak for what Putin is referencing in the quotes cited. I'll only add that just because President Zelensky is Jewish doesn't mean Ukraine doesn't have a problem problems with reverence for nazi collaborators or neo-nazi extremism. NBC News: Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's 'denazification' claim isn't...even though Putin is engaging in propaganda, it’s also true that Ukraine has a genuine Nazi problem — both past and present. Putin’s destructive actions — among them the devastation of Jewish communities — make clear that he’s lying when he says his goal is to ensure anyone’s welfare. But important as it is to defend the yellow-and-blue flag against the Kremlin’s brutal aggression, it would be a dangerous oversight to deny Ukraine’s antisemitic history and collaboration with Hitler’s Nazis, as well as the latter-day embrace of neo-Nazi factions in some quarters.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Sept 5, 2023 15:11:25 GMT -5
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Post by JoyinMudville on Sept 5, 2023 15:16:20 GMT -5
When did Biden, Trump, or Obama endorse the Minsk peace deals? The ink wasn't even dry on the Minsk accords before Putin started violating the terms of the deal. Funny, how you never talk about that. Thankfully, Minsk is dead. As for NATO No one has done more to advance the cause and timetable of Ukraine's accession to NATO than Vladimir Putin
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