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Post by soulflower on Jan 6, 2024 10:23:43 GMT -5
Just like economic sanctions on our adversaries. Poor countries like Yemen don't control international banking like our country does so they're using other means to apply economic pressure for political purposes. Your outrage is selective like your empathy... Your defense of Iranian backed terrorists groups is morally repugnant. The Houthis are not terrorists. For the last eight years, they stood up to Saudi Arabia's genocidal invasion of Yemen. I don't recall you expressing any empathy towards them or any other country that has suffered due to our bad foreign policy decisions. The Saudi Coalition’s Food War on Yemen
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summer23
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There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
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Post by summer23 on Jan 6, 2024 10:26:24 GMT -5
It is attacking civilian ships in international waters. You can defend them all you want. Your moral high ground is unsteady. If you’re an apologist for Israel, you have no standing to use the term “moral high ground”. You’ve lost your morality if you feel the need to rationalize killing women and children at the rate Israel has been doing. Did you say that you do not support but you understand why Hamas killed, raped, kidnapped civilians in Israel - the "incident" that started this entire spiral?
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 6, 2024 10:27:08 GMT -5
Your defense of Iranian backed terrorists groups is morally repugnant. The Houthis are not terrorists. For the last eight years, they stood up to Saudi Arabia's genocidal invasion of Yemen. I don't recall you expressing any empathy towards them or any other country that has suffered due to our bad foreign policy decisions. The Saudi Coalition’s Food War on Yemen Soul diversion +4 Soul diversion (noun): the number of posts before Soulflower tries to deflect from his moral bankruptcy by blaming the US for something
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 6, 2024 10:27:45 GMT -5
If you’re an apologist for Israel, you have no standing to use the term “moral high ground”. You’ve lost your morality if you feel the need to rationalize killing women and children at the rate Israel has been doing. Did you say that you do not support but you understand why Hamas killed, raped, kidnapped civilians in Israel - the "incident" that started this entire spiral? He referred to them as 'the resistance' Morally bankrupt
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Post by soulflower on Jan 6, 2024 10:32:02 GMT -5
If you’re an apologist for Israel, you have no standing to use the term “moral high ground”. You’ve lost your morality if you feel the need to rationalize killing women and children at the rate Israel has been doing. Did you say that you do not support but you understand why Hamas killed, raped, kidnapped civilians in Israel - the "incident" that started this entire spiral? Yes. You can't oppress human beings for a long time and not expect them to respond violently. We know this very well from our own history of slavery and relations with Native Americans. Both oppressed groups violently resisted colonization and oppression. That doesn't mean I condone taking hostages or killing civilians. I just acknowledge that violence begats violence and I want the cycle to end. As for Yemen, blocking ships heading to Israel is no worse than when the US and our allies intercept Iranian ships in international waters. Yemen says Israel is committing a genocide and I tend to agree. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. September 2023 - US Confirms April Seizure of Iran Oil Shipment
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summer23
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Post by summer23 on Jan 6, 2024 10:33:10 GMT -5
It certainly beats “cheering for genocide” as some pro-Israel advocates are doing. Human lives matter more than property. And let’s not forget that Yemen has recently experienced a brutal blockade like the people of Gaza. I just can't root for terrorist organizations attacking commercial ships in international waters but that's just me. In 2021 the group was removed as a terrorist organization. It will likely be reinstated.
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summer23
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There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
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Post by summer23 on Jan 6, 2024 10:35:31 GMT -5
Did you say that you do not support but you understand why Hamas killed, raped, kidnapped civilians in Israel - the "incident" that started this entire spiral? Yes. You can't oppress human beings for a long time and not expect them to respond violently. We know this very well from our own history of slavery and relations with Native Americans. Both oppressed groups violently resisted colonization and oppression. That doesn't mean I condone taking hostages or killing civilians. I just acknowledge that violence begats violence and I want the cycle to end. As for Yemen, blocking ships heading to Israel is no worse than when the US and our allies intercept Iranian ships in international waters. Yemen says Israel is committing a genocide and I tend to agree. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. September 2023 - US Confirms April Seizure of Iran Oil Shipment lol I don't condone it but I understand it. Got it.
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summer23
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There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
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Post by summer23 on Jan 6, 2024 10:38:13 GMT -5
Did you say that you do not support but you understand why Hamas killed, raped, kidnapped civilians in Israel - the "incident" that started this entire spiral? Yes. You can't oppress human beings for a long time and not expect them to respond violently. We know this very well from our own history of slavery and relations with Native Americans. Both oppressed groups violently resisted colonization and oppression. That doesn't mean I condone taking hostages or killing civilians. I just acknowledge that violence begats violence and I want the cycle to end. As for Yemen, blocking ships heading to Israel is no worse than when the US and our allies intercept Iranian ships in international waters. Yemen says Israel is committing a genocide and I tend to agree. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. September 2023 - US Confirms April Seizure of Iran Oil Shipment They are not simply "blocking" ships. They are attacking civilian ships in international waters. You have this way of using descriptors that do not accurately describe what those you support are doing.
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Post by soulflower on Jan 6, 2024 10:40:44 GMT -5
Yes. You can't oppress human beings for a long time and not expect them to respond violently. We know this very well from our own history of slavery and relations with Native Americans. Both oppressed groups violently resisted colonization and oppression. That doesn't mean I condone taking hostages or killing civilians. I just acknowledge that violence begats violence and I want the cycle to end. As for Yemen, blocking ships heading to Israel is no worse than when the US and our allies intercept Iranian ships in international waters. Yemen says Israel is committing a genocide and I tend to agree. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. September 2023 - US Confirms April Seizure of Iran Oil ShipmentThey are not simply "blocking" ships. They are attacking civilian ships in international waters. You have this way of using descriptors that do not accurately describe what those you support are doing. How many civilians have been harmed in these attacks? I've already made clear that I don't care that ships, which are insured, are being damaged.
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summer23
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There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
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Post by summer23 on Jan 6, 2024 10:43:55 GMT -5
They are not simply "blocking" ships. They are attacking civilian ships in international waters. You have this way of using descriptors that do not accurately describe what those you support are doing. How many civilians have been harmed in these attacks? How many need to be before you call foul? Is that they have not yet been very successful really the issue?
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Post by soulflower on Jan 6, 2024 10:47:57 GMT -5
How many civilians have been harmed in these attacks? How many need to be before you call foul? Is that they have not yet been very successful really the issue? Just give me an example if you're so certain that they're killing civilians. Have you considered that they don't intend to harm civilians? Contrary to popular opinion here, Muslims can be rational and aren't all savages. These are just poor people using whatever means they have to hold Israel accountable because wealthy countries either don't have the Will to do so or are afraid.
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summer23
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There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
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Post by summer23 on Jan 6, 2024 10:57:34 GMT -5
How many need to be before you call foul? Is that they have not yet been very successful really the issue?Just give me an example if you're so certain that they're killing civilians. Have you considered that they don't intend to harm civilians? Contrary to popular opinion here, Muslims can be rational and aren't all savages. These are just poor people using whatever means they have to hold Israel accountable because wealthy countries either don't have the Will to do so or are afraid. Seriously? No, I have not considered that lobbing ballistic missiles at civilian ships, such as Maersk container ships traveling in international waters meant no harm. I know that a Houthi leader is quite unhappy about his forces being sunk. Tit-for-tat, right? And he called it their "faith based stance". So . . . not all Muslims are rational and are not savages. By the way - trying to insinuate that I think all Muslims are savages is just another of your dumb games. It's beneath you. Or at least it used to be. www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240104-houthi-leader-vows-american-aggression-against-our-forces-will-not-go-unpunished/
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 6, 2024 11:01:45 GMT -5
How many need to be before you call foul? Is that they have not yet been very successful really the issue?Just give me an example if you're so certain that they're killing civilians. Have you considered that they don't intend to harm civilians? Contrary to popular opinion here, Muslims can be rational and aren't all savages. These are just poor people using whatever means they have to hold Israel accountable because wealthy countries either don't have the Will to do so or are afraid. Sending drones and rockets at commercial ships in international waters is terrorism. Israel has nothing to do with it. Cry me a river.
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Post by soulflower on Jan 6, 2024 11:08:40 GMT -5
Intervening to stop a genocide is moral and just.
People (even Muslims) matter more than property.
Those who defend or apologize for Israel are the ones who have ceded the moral high ground…
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Post by soulflower on Jan 6, 2024 11:12:22 GMT -5
Just give me an example if you're so certain that they're killing civilians. Have you considered that they don't intend to harm civilians? Contrary to popular opinion here, Muslims can be rational and aren't all savages. These are just poor people using whatever means they have to hold Israel accountable because wealthy countries either don't have the Will to do so or are afraid. Sending drones and rockets at commercial ships in international waters is terrorism. Israel has nothing to do with it. Cry me a river. The UN Genocide convention: “…the Convention establishes on State Parties the obligation to take measures to prevent and to punish the crime of genocide, including by enacting relevant legislation and punishing perpetrators, “whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals” (Article IV). That obligation, in addition to the prohibition not to commit genocide, have been considered as norms of international customary law and therefore, binding on all States, whether or not they have ratified the Genocide Convention.”www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide-convention.shtmlIt has everything to do with Israel. The attacks will stop when there’s a ceasefire.
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summer23
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There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
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Post by summer23 on Jan 6, 2024 11:22:26 GMT -5
Intervening to stop a genocide is moral and just. People (even Muslims) matter more than property. Those who defend or apologize for Israel are the ones who have ceded the moral high ground… Okay. As have you since you clearly think that killing Israelis and others (non-Muslims) civilians is acceptable - certainly understandable. I guess you felt the same about the events of 9-11 as well.
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Post by WKDWZD on Jan 6, 2024 11:31:35 GMT -5
Just give me an example if you're so certain that they're killing civilians. Have you considered that they don't intend to harm civilians? Contrary to popular opinion here, Muslims can be rational and aren't all savages. These are just poor people using whatever means they have to hold Israel accountable because wealthy countries either don't have the Will to do so or are afraid. Sending drones and rockets at commercial ships in international waters is terrorism. Israel has nothing to do with it. Cry me a river. Come on, of course it has, be honest.
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Post by soulflower on Jan 6, 2024 11:33:43 GMT -5
Intervening to stop a genocide is moral and just. People (even Muslims) matter more than property. Those who defend or apologize for Israel are the ones who have ceded the moral high ground… Okay. As have you since you clearly think that killing Israelis and others (non-Muslims) civilians is acceptable - certainly understandable. I guess you felt the same about the events of 9-11 as well. Just to be clear, I’ve never said that “killing civilians is acceptable” and you have yet to prove that these attacks in the Red Sea have killed civilians. Very typical of you to put words in my mouth when you’re losing the argument.
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summer23
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Post by summer23 on Jan 6, 2024 11:43:56 GMT -5
Okay. As have you since you clearly think that killing Israelis and others (non-Muslims) civilians is acceptable - certainly understandable. I guess you felt the same about the events of 9-11 as well. Just to be clear, I’ve never said that “killing civilians is acceptable” and you have yet to prove that these attacks in the Red Sea have killed civilians. Very typical of you to put words in my mouth when you’re losing the argument. You do the same g-d thing! How DOES it feel??
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summer23
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There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
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Post by summer23 on Jan 6, 2024 11:47:35 GMT -5
Okay. As have you since you clearly think that killing Israelis and others (non-Muslims) civilians is acceptable - certainly understandable. I guess you felt the same about the events of 9-11 as well. Just to be clear, I’ve never said that “killing civilians is acceptable” and you have yet to prove that these attacks in the Red Sea have killed civilians. Very typical of you to put words in my mouth when you’re losing the argument. Hamas killed civilians and you claimed not to support but understand why. And I didn't say that civilians onboard civilian vessels in the Red Sea being attacked by your more recent heroes were killed. But you seem to believe that the attackers did not want to kill anyone. Get outta here with your ridiculousness.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 6, 2024 12:29:31 GMT -5
Sending drones and rockets at commercial ships in international waters is terrorism. Israel has nothing to do with it. Cry me a river. Come on, of course it has, be honest. Are these Israeli ships? Are they bound for Israeli ports?
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Post by soulflower on Jan 6, 2024 12:51:01 GMT -5
Come on, of course it has, be honest. Are these Israeli ships? Are they bound for Israeli ports? They're targeting ships bound for Israel. When Israel's massacres in Gaza stop, the Red Sea attacks will stop. Yemen’s Houthis ‘will not stop’ Red Sea attacks until Israel ends Gaza war"On Tuesday, Abdulsalam told Reuters news agency that the US-led naval patrol mission is “essentially unnecessary” – as all waters near Yemen are still safe, except for Israel-linked ships or vessels travelling to Israel."
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Post by WKDWZD on Jan 6, 2024 13:26:44 GMT -5
Come on, of course it has, be honest. Are these Israeli ships? Are they bound for Israeli ports? As far as I know Israel doesn't build any ships, apart from the odd coracle a couple of thousands of years ago. However, they do have ships sailing under their own flag. If you know anything about merchant (OK for sprightly sake, "civilian ships'}, you'll know that merchant ships are registered, for convenience, in various countries under various flags. Legitimate targets for disruption? I guess any ship or cargo that aids Israel or its enablers are legitimate. And you can always go round the Cape of Good Hope, after all.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 6, 2024 15:45:03 GMT -5
Are these Israeli ships? Are they bound for Israeli ports? They're targeting ships bound for Israel. When Israel's massacres in Gaza stop, the Red Sea attacks will stop. Yemen’s Houthis ‘will not stop’ Red Sea attacks until Israel ends Gaza war"On Tuesday, Abdulsalam told Reuters news agency that the US-led naval patrol mission is “essentially unnecessary” – as all waters near Yemen are still safe, except for Israel-linked ships or vessels travelling to Israel." That's simply not true. Meanwhile, the Unity Explorer was struck. It is on its way to New Caledonia The Number 9 was on its way to Yalova, Turkey and The Sophie II is now docked in China
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Post by soulflower on Jan 6, 2024 15:50:26 GMT -5
They're targeting ships bound for Israel. When Israel's massacres in Gaza stop, the Red Sea attacks will stop. Yemen’s Houthis ‘will not stop’ Red Sea attacks until Israel ends Gaza war"On Tuesday, Abdulsalam told Reuters news agency that the US-led naval patrol mission is “essentially unnecessary” – as all waters near Yemen are still safe, except for Israel-linked ships or vessels travelling to Israel."That's simply not true. Meanwhile, the Unity Explorer was struck. It is on its way to New Caledonia The Number 9 was on its way to Yalova, Turkey and The Sophie II is now docked in China Probably an "Honest mistake" just like when Israel shoots unarmed people waving white flags. Their demands are clear. They'll stop when the killing stops in Gaza. Pushing for a ceasefire makes more sense and is less costly than escalating against Yemen's fighters. Which is unlikely to stop them from launching these attacks and would make us look weaker for failing to prevent the attacks.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 6, 2024 17:02:10 GMT -5
That's simply not true. Meanwhile, the Unity Explorer was struck. It is on its way to New Caledonia The Number 9 was on its way to Yalova, Turkey and The Sophie II is now docked in China Probably an "Honest mistake" just like when Israel shoots unarmed people waving white flags. Their demands are clear. They'll stop when the killing stops in Gaza. Pushing for a ceasefire makes more sense and is less costly than escalating against Yemen's fighters. Which is unlikely to stop them from launching these attacks and would make us look weaker for failing to prevent the attacks. So, you were wrong. What you said was false. Not true. As for your 'honest mistake' comment, this is what happens when you submit to a dogma or ideology. You lose your moral compass. Blinken is in the Middle East right now. Whatever our policy direction is in the Middle East, it should be dictated by our interests, and humanitarian aims. It should absolutely not be in response to a bunch of arsehats lobbing missiles at commercial ships in international waters. After awhile I really have to wonder if there isn't an authoritarian regime or terrorist group that you don't run cover for.
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Post by Rael on Jan 6, 2024 17:15:54 GMT -5
My point of endorsing Yemen’s piracy is, using the limited means they have, they’re doing the same thing we do when we Sanction countries for Human Rights abuses or other violations. If they’re doing this to hold Israel accountable, I support it. For example, the US on a few occasions the last few years has seized Iranian oil tankers. Some have called that “piracy”. Any time you utter the phrase "My point of endorsing piracy" you lose credibility. Are they targeting Israeli Navy or general commercial shipping. The answer matters.
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Post by soulflower on Jan 6, 2024 17:20:50 GMT -5
Probably an "Honest mistake" just like when Israel shoots unarmed people waving white flags. Their demands are clear. They'll stop when the killing stops in Gaza. Pushing for a ceasefire makes more sense and is less costly than escalating against Yemen's fighters. Which is unlikely to stop them from launching these attacks and would make us look weaker for failing to prevent the attacks. So, you were wrong. What you said was false. Not true. As for your 'honest mistake' comment, this is what happens when you submit to a dogma or ideology. You lose your moral compass. Blinken is in the Middle East right now. Whatever our policy direction is in the Middle East, it should be dictated by our interests, and humanitarian aims. It should absolutely not be in response to a bunch of arsehats lobbing missiles at commercial ships in international waters. After awhile I really have to wonder if there isn't an authoritarian regime or terrorist group that you don't run cover for. De-escalation is always in our interests. There are no good options here but a ceasefire in Gaza would be less costly than escalating against these Iranian proxies around the Middle East. We can’t afford another major war in the Middle East. And they know that. The wack-a-mole retaliation strikes have not deterred these groups so far and that’s not likely to change. Choose peace and don’t don’t do “stupid sh*t”.
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Post by soulflower on Jan 6, 2024 17:22:04 GMT -5
My point of endorsing Yemen’s piracy is, using the limited means they have, they’re doing the same thing we do when we Sanction countries for Human Rights abuses or other violations. If they’re doing this to hold Israel accountable, I support it. For example, the US on a few occasions the last few years has seized Iranian oil tankers. Some have called that “piracy”. Any time you utter the phrase "My point of endorsing piracy" you lose credibility. Are they targeting Israeli Navy or general commercial shipping. The answer matters. They’re targeting cargo ships heading to Israel. It’s already affecting Israel’s economy. Attempting a Genocide should have consequences for Israel. And supporting what Israel is doing right now is way worse than supporting piracy in the name of holding Israel accountable.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Jan 6, 2024 17:28:49 GMT -5
Any time you utter the phrase "My point of endorsing piracy" you lose credibility. Are they targeting Israeli Navy or general commercial shipping. The answer matters. They’re targeting cargo ships heading to Israel. It’s already affecting Israel’s economy. Ok, now you're lying. I just gave you three examples of specific ships targeted that were not headed to Israel and you decided to completely disregard that factual information and perpetuate the exact same false statement. If that isn't lying. Nothing is.
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