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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 15, 2024 4:57:35 GMT -5
By some estimates Ukraine has already destroyed upwards of 12 percent of Russian oil refining capabilities. FYI, you can still export crude but you don't generate as much revenue.
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Post by soulflower on Mar 15, 2024 5:23:53 GMT -5
All they're doing is raising the cost of oil exports from Russia, which benefits Russia. And yes, the word "destroying" is a huge overstatement. Meanwhile, here in reality on planet Earth: Fortune - Putin’s inconvenient truth for the west: Despite 7% inflation, Russia’s economy is a ‘big and resilient animalDespite your spin, most of the world rightfully views the efforts to sanction and isolate Russia as a failure. They've been bailed out by China, India, and other BRICS countries. Their advanced weapons are still using western components. That's not to say Russia's economy isn't facing some headwinds. They certainly are paying higher prices for stuff and facing labor shortages due to the war, as described in the Fortune link. But overrall, after two years of total war in Ukraine, Russia's economy is growing despite the attempts by their former trade partners to sanction them to death.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 15, 2024 6:01:51 GMT -5
All they're doing is raising the cost of oil exports from Russia, which benefits Russia. And yes, the word "destroying" is a huge overstatement. Only if Russia can actually export the oil. There's a point at which the higher costs no longer compensate for their inability to produce the product in quantity. Furthermore, the higher costs also hit the Russian who are struggling with the ruble's devaluation.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 16, 2024 0:26:12 GMT -5
Looks like another Russian oil refinery just went up
Syzran
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 16, 2024 9:31:19 GMT -5
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Post by vosa on Mar 16, 2024 15:22:35 GMT -5
By some estimates Ukraine has already destroyed upwards of 12 percent of Russian oil refining capabilities. FYI, you can still export crude but you don't generate as much revenue. If that's not meddling in our elections I don't know what is. And avoiding a price spike ahead of the US presidential election in November helps who? So much for the Russia/Trump connection.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 16, 2024 15:37:16 GMT -5
By some estimates Ukraine has already destroyed upwards of 12 percent of Russian oil refining capabilities. FYI, you can still export crude but you don't generate as much revenue. If that's not meddling in our elections I don't know what is. And avoiding a price spike ahead of the US presidential election in November helps who? So much for the Russia/Trump connection. What are you even talking about?
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Post by vosa on Mar 16, 2024 16:06:39 GMT -5
If that's not meddling in our elections I don't know what is. And avoiding a price spike ahead of the US presidential election in November helps who? So much for the Russia/Trump connection. What are you even talking about? OK, so it was a long article and maybe you didn't see the part I bolded. So let me isolate it for you so maybe you'll understand. "While the G7 and the EU have tried to limit how much Russia can sell its oil for, they have also sought to keep Russian barrels on the market to avoid a price spike ahead of the US presidential election in November."The G7 and the EU are trying to avoid a price spike ahead of the US presidential election in November."
A price spike in oil, i.e., gas prices would hurt Biden and help Trump. Preventing a price spike in oil, i.e., gas prices would help Biden and be of no help to Trump.
Get it now?
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 16, 2024 18:48:05 GMT -5
What are you even talking about? OK, so it was a long article and maybe you didn't see the part I bolded. So let me isolate it for you so maybe you'll understand. "While the G7 and the EU have tried to limit how much Russia can sell its oil for, they have also sought to keep Russian barrels on the market to avoid a price spike ahead of the US presidential election in November."The G7 and the EU are trying to avoid a price spike ahead of the US presidential election in November."
A price spike in oil, i.e., gas prices would hurt Biden and help Trump. Preventing a price spike in oil, i.e., gas prices would help Biden and be of no help to Trump.
Get it now?
Calling Ukraine’s degradation of Russia’s refining capacity ‘interference’ in the U.S. presidential election is a bit of a stretch The real question you should be asking yourself if you’re concerned about election interference is what message did right wing goon and Putin puppet Orban bring from his puppet master to Trump last week
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Post by vosa on Mar 16, 2024 18:53:13 GMT -5
OK, so it was a long article and maybe you didn't see the part I bolded. So let me isolate it for you so maybe you'll understand. "While the G7 and the EU have tried to limit how much Russia can sell its oil for, they have also sought to keep Russian barrels on the market to avoid a price spike ahead of the US presidential election in November."The G7 and the EU are trying to avoid a price spike ahead of the US presidential election in November."
A price spike in oil, i.e., gas prices would hurt Biden and help Trump. Preventing a price spike in oil, i.e., gas prices would help Biden and be of no help to Trump. Get it now?
Calling Ukraine’s degradation of Russia’s refining capacity ‘interference’ in the U.S. presidential election is a bit of a stretch The real question you should be asking yourself if you’re concerned about election interference is what message did right wing goon and Putin puppet Orban bring from his puppet master to Trump last week What proof do you have that Orban brought Trump a message from Putin?
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 16, 2024 19:41:40 GMT -5
Calling Ukraine’s degradation of Russia’s refining capacity ‘interference’ in the U.S. presidential election is a bit of a stretch The real question you should be asking yourself if you’re concerned about election interference is what message did right wing goon and Putin puppet Orban bring from his puppet master to Trump last week What proof do you have that Orban brought Trump a message from Putin? I posed it as a question. But, look at his remarks coming out of the meeting in which he said,’ Trump won’t provide one red cent to Ukraine.’ You don’t think that’s a message to Putin? And what message does that send to Putin? It says, hold on, help is coming.
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Post by vosa on Mar 16, 2024 20:18:57 GMT -5
What proof do you have that Orban brought Trump a message from Putin? I posed it as a question. But, look at his remarks coming out of the meeting in which he said,’ Trump won’t provide one red cent to Ukraine.’ You don’t think that’s a message to Putin? And what message does that send to Putin? It says, hold on, help is coming. So you've gone from Orban brought a message to Trump from Putin to Orban brought a message to Putin from Trump. I see no point for me to speculate about who sent what message to whom until there is some proof that anybody sent any messages to anybody.
Should you ever get any info on the content of these messages give me a call.
.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 17, 2024 9:25:05 GMT -5
I posed it as a question. But, look at his remarks coming out of the meeting in which he said,’ Trump won’t provide one red cent to Ukraine.’ You don’t think that’s a message to Putin? And what message does that send to Putin? It says, hold on, help is coming. So you've gone from Orban brought a message to Trump from Putin to Orban brought a message to Putin from Trump. I see no point for me to speculate about who sent what message to whom until there is some proof that anybody sent any messages to anybody.
Should you ever get any info on the content of these messages give me a call.
. If you don't think those comments were a message to Putin, you're being naive
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 17, 2024 9:28:48 GMT -5
Ukraine continues to bring Putin's invasion back onto Russian soil.
Another refinery hit last night
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Post by soulflower on Mar 22, 2024 6:44:16 GMT -5
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 23, 2024 0:27:04 GMT -5
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 23, 2024 5:35:43 GMT -5
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Post by ishmael on Mar 23, 2024 10:24:04 GMT -5
And since oil is a global market, it will also affect energy costs here and that is not something Biden wants to see, this close to the election. The fact is that these are legitimate military targets and Ukraine is smart to strike at them.
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Post by soulflower on Mar 23, 2024 10:42:22 GMT -5
And since oil is a global market, it will also affect energy costs here and that is not something Biden wants to see, this close to the election. The fact is that these are legitimate military targets and Ukraine is smart to strike at them. Is it still smart when Russia retaliates and destroys Ukraine's energy infrastructure?
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Post by ishmael on Mar 23, 2024 10:45:47 GMT -5
And since oil is a global market, it will also affect energy costs here and that is not something Biden wants to see, this close to the election. The fact is that these are legitimate military targets and Ukraine is smart to strike at them.Is it still smart when Russia retaliates and destroys Ukraine's energy infrastructure? Russia has shown little regard for what they attack, so tying these two together does not demonstrate a causal relationship. Oil fires are particularly difficult to fight and very difficult to hide. They let the Russian know that Moscow's ability to protect is questionable.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 23, 2024 11:06:45 GMT -5
And since oil is a global market, it will also affect energy costs here and that is not something Biden wants to see, this close to the election. The fact is that these are legitimate military targets and Ukraine is smart to strike at them.Is it still smart when Russia retaliates and destroys Ukraine's energy infrastructure? I think you've got it backwards. Russia has been hitting Ukraine's energy infrastructure since the winter of 21/22. It was in all the papers.
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Post by soulflower on Mar 23, 2024 15:20:19 GMT -5
Is it still smart when Russia retaliates and destroys Ukraine's energy infrastructure? Russia has shown little regard for what they attack, so tying these two together does not demonstrate a causal relationship. Oil fires are particularly difficult to fight and very difficult to hide. They've held back and haven't destroyed Ukraine's civil infrastructure. That could change soon. If you want to know what it looks like when militaries don't hold back, see Gaza today, or Fallujah in 2006. Compared to those wars, Russia has held back in Ukraine. They let the Russian know that Moscow's ability to protect is questionable. Like Bin Laden did to us on 9/11? How'd that work out?
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Post by soulflower on Mar 23, 2024 15:23:04 GMT -5
Is it still smart when Russia retaliates and destroys Ukraine's energy infrastructure? I think you've got it backwards. Russia has been hitting Ukraine's energy infrastructure since the winter of 21/22. It was in all the papers. They temporarily disabled some of Ukraine's power plants but didn't destroy Ukraine's electrical infrastructure. They have the means to destroy it now. I'm sure you've heard about the new guided bombs that Russia is using. The Russian strike on Ukraine's hydro-power dam seems to be more significant than prior attacks.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 23, 2024 17:35:59 GMT -5
Russia has shown little regard for what they attack, so tying these two together does not demonstrate a causal relationship. Oil fires are particularly difficult to fight and very difficult to hide. They've held back and haven't destroyed Ukraine's civil infrastructure. That could change soon. If you want to know what it looks like when militaries don't hold back, see Gaza today, or Fallujah in 2006. Compared to those wars, Russia has held back in Ukraine. That's simply not true. I mean, it so egregiously flies in the face of the accumulated evidence that I really have to wonder if you're just lying in your continuing effort to run cover for Putin. January 24 December 23 September 23 January 2023 Human Rights Watch, December 22 October 22 - Cluster munitions against a civilian train station April 22 This very partial list doesn't even begin to count the strikes against dozens of Ukrainian hospitals and the various cities, towns, and villages that Putin's military has reduced to piles of smoking rubble. C'mon, man.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 23, 2024 17:38:48 GMT -5
I think you've got it backwards. Russia has been hitting Ukraine's energy infrastructure since the winter of 21/22. It was in all the papers. They temporarily disabled some of Ukraine's power plants but didn't destroy Ukraine's electrical infrastructure. They have the means to destroy it now. I'm sure you've heard about the new guided bombs that Russia is using. The Russian strike on Ukraine's hydro-power dam seems to be more significant than prior attacks. Bollocks. You're confusing Ukraine's ingenuity and perseverance with Russia's actions. They've been hitting Ukrainian energy infrastructure since the late summer of 2022 at least.
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Post by ishmael on Mar 23, 2024 18:27:27 GMT -5
Russia has shown little regard for what they attack, so tying these two together does not demonstrate a causal relationship. Oil fires are particularly difficult to fight and very difficult to hide. They've held back and haven't destroyed Ukraine's civil infrastructure. That could change soon. If you want to know what it looks like when militaries don't hold back, see Gaza today, or Fallujah in 2006. Compared to those wars, Russia has held back in Ukraine. They let the Russian know that Moscow's ability to protect is questionable. Like Bin Laden did to us on 9/11? How'd that work out? Please. Lecture me about what happens when the military applies force. Russia has hit bridges, schools, common meeting places, roads and random buildings. Your comment that they have not attacked civil infrastructure is ludicrous to the point of contemptible. And your second comment makes no sense.
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Post by soulflower on Mar 23, 2024 18:35:21 GMT -5
They temporarily disabled some of Ukraine's power plants but didn't destroy Ukraine's electrical infrastructure. They have the means to destroy it now. I'm sure you've heard about the new guided bombs that Russia is using. The Russian strike on Ukraine's hydro-power dam seems to be more significant than prior attacks. Bollocks. You're confusing Ukraine's ingenuity and perseverance with Russia's actions. They've been hitting Ukrainian energy infrastructure since the late summer of 2022 at least. They did that between 2022 and 2023 then stopped. This week's attack on the Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine was the first time in months that Russia has targeted Ukraine's power infrastructure as noted below by the AP: "In the winter of 2022-23, Russia targeted Ukraine’s energy infrastructure, causing frequent blackouts across the country. Many in Ukraine and the West expected that Russia might repeat this strategy this winter, but Russia instead focused its strikes on Ukraine’s defense industries."
apnews.com/article/ukraine-russia-war-electric-power-attack-90218fcbed4fbf196aa8148a4aae6239
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Post by soulflower on Mar 23, 2024 18:39:47 GMT -5
They've held back and haven't destroyed Ukraine's civil infrastructure. That could change soon. If you want to know what it looks like when militaries don't hold back, see Gaza today, or Fallujah in 2006. Compared to those wars, Russia has held back in Ukraine. Like Bin Laden did to us on 9/11? How'd that work out? Please. Lecture me about what happens when the military applies force. Russia has hit bridges, schools, common meeting places, roads and random buildings. Your comment that they have not attacked civil infrastructure is ludicrous to the point of contemptible. And your second comment makes no sense. I'm not disagreeing that Russia has done what you describe. I'm just trying to get you to admit that Israel is bombing Gaza far more intensely than Russia is bombing Ukraine if you're able to be honest and criticize Israel for a change. After two years of war, there have been 10,000 civilian casualties in Ukraine out of a population of 30-40 million (the Ukrainian civilians killed in Russian occupied areas are included in that figure). After 6 months in Gaza, there have been 30,000 civilian casualties out of a population of 2 million. Therefore, Russia is not indiscriminately bombing Ukraine to the extent that Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza. Israel is proving that Russia could bomb civilian targets in Ukraine more intensely if they choose to... AP - Israel’s military campaign in Gaza seen as among the most destructive in recent history, experts say"The Israeli military campaign in Gaza, experts say, now sits among the deadliest and most destructive in recent history.
In just over two months, researchers say the offensive has wreaked more destruction than the razing of Syria’s Aleppo between 2012 and 2016, Ukraine’s Mariupol or, proportionally, the Allied bombing of Germany in World War II. It has killed more civilians than the U.S.-led coalition did in its three-year campaign against the Islamic State group."
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Post by ishmael on Mar 23, 2024 18:46:01 GMT -5
Please. Lecture me about what happens when the military applies force. Russia has hit bridges, schools, common meeting places, roads and random buildings. Your comment that they have not attacked civil infrastructure is ludicrous to the point of contemptible. And your second comment makes no sense. I'm not disagreeing that Russia has done what you describe. I'm just trying to get you to admit that Israel is bombing Gaza far more intensely than Russia is bombing Ukraine if you're able to be honest and criticize Israel for a change. After two years of war, there have been 10,000 civilian casualties in Ukraine out of a population of 30-40 million (the Ukrainian civilians killed in Russian occupied areas are included in that figure). After 6 months in Gaza, there have been 30,000 civilian casualties out of a population of 2 million. Therefore, Russia is not indiscriminately bombing Ukraine to the extent that Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza. Israel is proving that Russia could bomb civilian targets in Ukraine more intensely if they choose to... Quit trying to defend Russia's systematic murders of civilians and the destruction of Ukranian civilian infrastructure by diverting the thread to Gaza. You want to talk Gaza, go to that thread.
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Post by soulflower on Mar 23, 2024 18:52:06 GMT -5
I'm not disagreeing that Russia has done what you describe. I'm just trying to get you to admit that Israel is bombing Gaza far more intensely than Russia is bombing Ukraine if you're able to be honest and criticize Israel for a change. After two years of war, there have been 10,000 civilian casualties in Ukraine out of a population of 30-40 million (the Ukrainian civilians killed in Russian occupied areas are included in that figure). After 6 months in Gaza, there have been 30,000 civilian casualties out of a population of 2 million. Therefore, Russia is not indiscriminately bombing Ukraine to the extent that Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza. Israel is proving that Russia could bomb civilian targets in Ukraine more intensely if they choose to... Quit trying to defend Russia's systematic murders of civilians and the destruction of Ukranian civilian infrastructure by diverting the thread to Gaza. You want to talk Gaza, go to that thread. If Russia is "intentionally" killing Ukrainian civilians, why aren't they racking up the numbers that Israel is doing in Gaza? Either the Russians are doing a terrible job at hitting civilians in Ukraine or they're not going out of their way to kill Ukrainian civilians. Sorry Ish. I don't trust your military analysis because you're extremely biased. One minute you're lecturing me about supporting the Houthi attacks on shipping in the Red Sea. The next minute you're cheering on Ukrainian acts of terror even when it involves Russian nazis who have killed civilians in their attacks. We're both biased but only one of us openly admits his biases.
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