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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 11:03:14 GMT -5
There you go again with the absolutes. Define "give up". If a ceasefire is declared tomorrow and Ukraine controls 80% of their borders, how is that an outcome they can't live with? And where do you get the idea that I don't expect Ukraine to competently defend the 80% of the country that remains under their control? - Ukraine fought the world's third-largest military to a stalemate.
- Putin will not achieve his objectives of changing the government in Kyiv or stopping the West from arming Ukraine. While I don't see how Ukraine can get to total victory, I also don't think it's likely that Russia can achieve total victory. Both sides will need to make compromises for peace. I'll grant you that I approach this war with less emotion and more realism than the Israel-Gaza thing but that's largely due to the different nature of the wars. For example in Ukraine, 10,000 or so civilians have been killed in two years. In contrast, in Gaza alone, 30,000 civilians, 12,000 of them children, have been killed in SIX MONTHS. That's one of worst rates of civilian casualties in the history of modern wars. To me, the war in Ukraine looks more like a conventional war while the stuff in Gaza looks like ethnic cleansing or genocide. The numbers don't lie. How can anyone view Gaza as a normal war? From a military standpoint, the only difference between Gaza and Ukraine is that Gaza is a fraction of the size of Ukraine. If Russia was attacking Gaza, they'd be no different that Israel. Russia's war crimes in Ukraine are awful. Israel's war crimes in Gaza are worse in scale. The numbers don't lie. How many journalists in Ukraine has Russia targeted? How many humanitarian aid workers in Ukraine has Russia targeted? Has Russia permanently cut off Ukraine's food and water supplies? Is Ukraine experiencing a famine? Are we sending weapons to the Russians to kill Ukrainians? The two conflicts have little in common beyond both Ukrainians and the Palestinians having the Right to self-determination and the Right to resist an occupying army. Beyond that, Ukraine is a sovereign state with a modern army while Gaza has no sovereignty, their infrastructure is controlled by Israel, and there's no army protecting the people of Gaza (Hamas is a guerilla warfare/terrorist group, not an army).
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
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Post by summer23 on Apr 11, 2024 11:07:50 GMT -5
From a military standpoint, the only difference between Gaza and Ukraine is that Gaza is a fraction of the size of Ukraine. If Russia was attacking Gaza, they'd be no different that Israel.Russia's war crimes in Ukraine are awful. Israel's war crimes in Gaza are worse in scale. The numbers don't lie. How many journalists in Ukraine has Russia targeted? How many humanitarian aid workers in Ukraine has Russia targeted? Has Russia permanently cut off Ukraine's food and water supplies? Is Ukraine experiencing a famine? Are we sending weapons to the Russians to kill Ukrainians? The two conflicts have little in common beyond both Ukrainians and the Palestinians having the Right to self-determination and the Right to resist an occupying army. Beyond that, Ukraine is a sovereign state with a modern army while Gaza has no sovereignty, their infrastructure is controlled by Israel, and there's no army protecting the people of Gaza (Hamas is a guerilla warfare/terrorist group, not an army). The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades is the military wing of the Palestinian organization Hamas, operating in the Gaza Strip. It is currently led by Mohammed Deif and, before his death on 17 March 2024, his deputy, Marwan Issa. <--- Not an army?
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 11:11:12 GMT -5
Russia's war crimes in Ukraine are awful. Israel's war crimes in Gaza are worse in scale. The numbers don't lie. How many journalists in Ukraine has Russia targeted? How many humanitarian aid workers in Ukraine has Russia targeted? Has Russia permanently cut off Ukraine's food and water supplies? Is Ukraine experiencing a famine? Are we sending weapons to the Russians to kill Ukrainians? The two conflicts have little in common beyond both Ukrainians and the Palestinians having the Right to self-determination and the Right to resist an occupying army. Beyond that, Ukraine is a sovereign state with a modern army while Gaza has no sovereignty, their infrastructure is controlled by Israel, and there's no army protecting the people of Gaza (Hamas is a guerilla warfare/terrorist group, not an army). The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades is the military wing of the Palestinian organization Hamas, operating in the Gaza Strip. It is currently led by Mohammed Deif and, before his death on 17 March 2024, his deputy, Marwan Issa. <--- Not an army? How can you distinguish Hamas fighters from civilians? They don't typically wear uniforms. They have no military bases. No tanks. No air defenses. It's not an army in the traditional sense. It's a guerilla paramiliary force. Guerilla warfare:
Guerrilla warfare, type of warfare fought by irregulars in fast-moving, small-scale actions against orthodox military and police forces and, on occasion, against rival insurgent forces, either independently or in conjunction with a larger political-military strategy.
www.britannica.com/topic/guerrilla-warfare^ That is how Hamas fights. They don't fight the World War I style way Russia and Ukraine are fighting.
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summer23
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There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
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Post by summer23 on Apr 11, 2024 11:52:03 GMT -5
The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades is the military wing of the Palestinian organization Hamas, operating in the Gaza Strip. It is currently led by Mohammed Deif and, before his death on 17 March 2024, his deputy, Marwan Issa. <--- Not an army? How can you distinguish Hamas fighters from civilians? They don't typically wear uniforms. They have no military bases. No tanks. No air defenses. It's not an army in the traditional sense. It's a guerilla paramiliary force. Guerilla warfare:
Guerrilla warfare, type of warfare fought by irregulars in fast-moving, small-scale actions against orthodox military and police forces and, on occasion, against rival insurgent forces, either independently or in conjunction with a larger political-military strategy.
www.britannica.com/topic/guerrilla-warfare^ That is how Hamas fights. They don't fight the World War I style way Russia and Ukraine are fighting. lol You have to right even when you are wrong. It's okay.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 11, 2024 12:17:32 GMT -5
From a military standpoint, the only difference between Gaza and Ukraine is that Gaza is a fraction of the size of Ukraine. If Russia was attacking Gaza, they'd be no different that Israel.Russia's war crimes in Ukraine are awful. Israel's war crimes in Gaza are worse in scale. The numbers don't lie. How many journalists in Ukraine has Russia targeted? How many humanitarian aid workers in Ukraine has Russia targeted? Has Russia permanently cut off Ukraine's food and water supplies? Is Ukraine experiencing a famine? Are we sending weapons to the Russians to kill Ukrainians? The two conflicts have little in common beyond both Ukrainians and the Palestinians having the Right to self-determination and the Right to resist an occupying army. Beyond that, Ukraine is a sovereign state with a modern army while Gaza has no sovereignty, their infrastructure is controlled by Israel, and there's no army protecting the people of Gaza (Hamas is a guerilla warfare/terrorist group, not an army). 1. That's the debatable. There are roughly 8 million Ukrainian refugees as a result of Putin's unprovoked genocidal invasion for territorial conquest. That doesn't take into consideration the thousands of children deported to Russia, the torture chambers, labor camps, systemic rapes, and detentions. 2. Russia routinely hits civilian infrastructure with indiscriminate missile attacks. They're currently leveling Kharkiv one apartment block at a time. 3. You are correct, the two conflicts have little in common. Ukraine didn't attack Russia. Hamas launched the most brutal pogrom against the Jews since the Holocaust.
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Post by ivanbalt on Apr 11, 2024 12:27:13 GMT -5
From a military standpoint, the only difference between Gaza and Ukraine is that Gaza is a fraction of the size of Ukraine. If Russia was attacking Gaza, they'd be no different that Israel.Russia's war crimes in Ukraine are awful. Israel's war crimes in Gaza are worse in scale. The numbers don't lie. How many journalists in Ukraine has Russia targeted? How many humanitarian aid workers in Ukraine has Russia targeted? Has Russia permanently cut off Ukraine's food and water supplies? Is Ukraine experiencing a famine? Are we sending weapons to the Russians to kill Ukrainians? The two conflicts have little in common beyond both Ukrainians and the Palestinians having the Right to self-determination and the Right to resist an occupying army. Beyond that, Ukraine is a sovereign state with a modern army while Gaza has no sovereignty, their infrastructure is controlled by Israel, and there's no army protecting the people of Gaza (Hamas is a guerilla warfare/terrorist group, not an army). Again, Russia is attacking a large country and Israel is attacking a sliver of land. If you packed the entire country into metro Kiev, Russia would hit them just as hard and the war crimes would scale.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 12:27:50 GMT -5
Russia's war crimes in Ukraine are awful. Israel's war crimes in Gaza are worse in scale. The numbers don't lie. How many journalists in Ukraine has Russia targeted? How many humanitarian aid workers in Ukraine has Russia targeted? Has Russia permanently cut off Ukraine's food and water supplies? Is Ukraine experiencing a famine? Are we sending weapons to the Russians to kill Ukrainians? The two conflicts have little in common beyond both Ukrainians and the Palestinians having the Right to self-determination and the Right to resist an occupying army. Beyond that, Ukraine is a sovereign state with a modern army while Gaza has no sovereignty, their infrastructure is controlled by Israel, and there's no army protecting the people of Gaza (Hamas is a guerilla warfare/terrorist group, not an army). 1. That's the debatable. There are roughly 8 million Ukrainian refugees as a result of Putin's unprovoked genocidal invasion for territorial conquest. That doesn't take into consideration the thousands of children deported to Russia, the torture chambers, labor camps, systemic rapes, and detentions. It's objectively not debatable. Ukraine's population is 35-38 million. Gaza's, 2 million. 5-10% of the 2 million people in Gaza have been killed or wounded. USAID says Gaza is experiencing famine. The casualty figures for civilians in the war in Ukraine is not close to comparable. They're getting annihilated. 2. Russia routinely hits civilian infrastructure with indiscriminate missile attacks. They're currently leveling Kharkiv one apartment block at a time. They've waited two years to do this while the US military took out Iraq's electrical infrastructure after the first month of the Iraq war. Russia has gradually escalated over the last two years rather than doing a "Shock and Awe" style destruction of Ukraine that most people were expecting. And the uptick in attacks on Ukraine's energy infrastructure follows the Ukrainian attacks on Russian energy infrastructure that you were celebrating earlier in the thread. I tried to warn you that Russia has the capacity to escalate the intensity of their attacks on Ukraine. The longer the war lasts, the longer it will take Ukraine to recover from this war...
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 12:29:27 GMT -5
Russia's war crimes in Ukraine are awful. Israel's war crimes in Gaza are worse in scale. The numbers don't lie. How many journalists in Ukraine has Russia targeted? How many humanitarian aid workers in Ukraine has Russia targeted? Has Russia permanently cut off Ukraine's food and water supplies? Is Ukraine experiencing a famine? Are we sending weapons to the Russians to kill Ukrainians? The two conflicts have little in common beyond both Ukrainians and the Palestinians having the Right to self-determination and the Right to resist an occupying army. Beyond that, Ukraine is a sovereign state with a modern army while Gaza has no sovereignty, their infrastructure is controlled by Israel, and there's no army protecting the people of Gaza (Hamas is a guerilla warfare/terrorist group, not an army). Again, Russia is attacking a large country and Israel is attacking a sliver of land. If you packed the entire country into metro Kiev, Russia would hit them just as hard and the war crimes would scale. Right. So you're just going to ignore all the other stuff Israel has done but Russia hasn't done in Ukraine? Imagine the outcry if Russia killed a bunch of western aid workers in Ukraine? Or intentionally killed western journalists in Ukraine? One war is objectively worse than the other. And last I checked, Ukraine isn't experiencing a famine.
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Post by ivanbalt on Apr 11, 2024 12:43:40 GMT -5
Again, Russia is attacking a large country and Israel is attacking a sliver of land. If you packed the entire country into metro Kiev, Russia would hit them just as hard and the war crimes would scale. Right. So you're just going to ignore all the other stuff Israel has done but Russia hasn't done in Ukraine? Imagine the outcry if Russia killed a bunch of western aid workers in Ukraine? Or intentionally killed western journalists in Ukraine. One war is objectively worse than the other. No one is ignoring anything. I think Israel is in the wrong. But this whole discussion began because you continue to place far, far more blame on Ukraine than Russia in their conflict.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 13:02:44 GMT -5
Right. So you're just going to ignore all the other stuff Israel has done but Russia hasn't done in Ukraine? Imagine the outcry if Russia killed a bunch of western aid workers in Ukraine? Or intentionally killed western journalists in Ukraine. One war is objectively worse than the other. No one is ignoring anything. I think Israel is in the wrong. But this whole discussion began because you continue to place far, far more blame on Ukraine than Russia in their conflict. Examples??? I don't recall blaming Ukraine for Russia's invasion. I blame Putin and no one else for his decision to invade Ukraine. He had other options. It was a dumb decision and a miscalculation on his part. Aside from that, I've said Russia was 'provoked' by the US and NATO meddling in Ukraine between 2014 and 2022. I don't blame Ukraine for the pre-2022 provocations. Just because I accept the premise that Russia was provoked doesn't mean I believe their responses to the US/NATO provocations are appropriate. Much in the same way that I don't view Israel's response to Oct. 7th as proportional or appropriate. Multiple things can be true at the same time. Lastly, I've made it clear that I view Ukraine's cause as legitimate and view Russia's invasion as illegal. That doesn't mean I can't criticize Ukraine's leaders for rejecting peace talks and committing counterproductive acts of terror against Russia.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 11, 2024 13:12:21 GMT -5
They've waited two years to do this while the US military took out Iraq's electrical infrastructure after the first month of the Iraq war. Russia has gradually escalated over the last two years rather than doing a "Shock and Awe" style destruction of Ukraine that most people were expecting. Souldiversion + 8 Souldiversion (noun) - the number of posts on any given thread before Soulflower will try to shift attention away from Putin's atrocities by slamming the United States. And the uptick in attacks on Ukraine's energy infrastructure follows the Ukrainian attacks on Russian energy infrastructure that you were celebrating earlier in the thread. I tried to warn you that Russia has the capacity to escalate the intensity of their attacks on Ukraine. The longer the war lasts, the longer it will take Ukraine to recover from this war... 1. You are lying. 2. Russia was hitting Ukraine's energy infrastructure all the way back in the winter of 22/23. They blew up the dam on the Dnipro in the spring of 2023. This is well documented. So, bull$hit, bull$hit, bull$hit 3. Russia has been hitting Ukraine's civilian population since the first days of the war. What they've been doing to Kharkiv is horrific twitter.com/USAmbKyiv/status/1778332357906337938
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
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Post by summer23 on Apr 11, 2024 13:17:06 GMT -5
No one is ignoring anything. I think Israel is in the wrong. But this whole discussion began because you continue to place far, far more blame on Ukraine than Russia in their conflict.Examples??? I don't recall blaming Ukraine for Russia's invasion. I blame Putin and no one else for his decision to invade Ukraine. He had other options. It was a dumb decision and a miscalculation on his part. Aside from that, I've said Russia was 'provoked' by the US and NATO meddling in Ukraine between 2014 and 2022. I don't blame Ukraine for the pre-2022 provocations. Just because I accept the premise that Russia was provoked doesn't mean I believe their responses to the US/NATO provocations are appropriate. Much in the same way that I don't view Israel's response to Oct. 7th as proportional or appropriate. Multiple things can be true at the same time. Lastly, I've made it clear that I view Ukraine's cause as legitimate and view Russia's invasion as illegal. That doesn't mean I can't criticize Ukraine's leaders for rejecting peace talks and committing counterproductive acts of terror against Russia. You said that Ukraine was too complacent. You said that you understood Russia's escalation. It's all here: baltimoresunreunited.freeforums.net/thread/10901/russia-attacked-ukraine?page=2
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 13:20:41 GMT -5
Examples??? I don't recall blaming Ukraine for Russia's invasion. I blame Putin and no one else for his decision to invade Ukraine. He had other options. It was a dumb decision and a miscalculation on his part. Aside from that, I've said Russia was 'provoked' by the US and NATO meddling in Ukraine between 2014 and 2022. I don't blame Ukraine for the pre-2022 provocations. Just because I accept the premise that Russia was provoked doesn't mean I believe their responses to the US/NATO provocations are appropriate. Much in the same way that I don't view Israel's response to Oct. 7th as proportional or appropriate. Multiple things can be true at the same time. Lastly, I've made it clear that I view Ukraine's cause as legitimate and view Russia's invasion as illegal. That doesn't mean I can't criticize Ukraine's leaders for rejecting peace talks and committing counterproductive acts of terror against Russia. You said that Ukraine was too complacent. You said that you understood Russia's escalation. It's all here: baltimoresunreunited.freeforums.net/thread/10901/russia-attacked-ukraine?page=2 I've said a lot but I've never said "Ukraine provoked Russia" or "blamed Ukraine" for the invasion. Long before Feb. 2022 I was calling the war in a Ukraine a proxy-war between the US and Russia. So I didn't just start following the events over there in 2022. It's been on my mind for years. You're trying to pin me into a box despite the fact that I've articulated on page after page what I actually think.
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
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Post by summer23 on Apr 11, 2024 13:27:43 GMT -5
I've said a lot but I've never said "Ukraine provoked Russia" or "blamed Ukraine" for the invasion. Long before Feb. 2022 I was calling the war in a Ukraine a proxy-war between the US and Russia. So I didn't just start following the events over there in 2022. It's been on my mind for years. You're trying to pin me into a box despite the fact that I've articulated on page after page what I actually think. Sure thing, soulflower. It's right at the link I provided for anyone interested. And for years Russian invading the sovereign nation of Ukraine has been on your mind? You should have warned them. Maybe they would not have been so complacent.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 13:31:38 GMT -5
I've said a lot but I've never said "Ukraine provoked Russia" or "blamed Ukraine" for the invasion. Long before Feb. 2022 I was calling the war in a Ukraine a proxy-war between the US and Russia. So I didn't just start following the events over there in 2022. It's been on my mind for years. You're trying to pin me into a box despite the fact that I've articulated on page after page what I actually think. Sure thing, soulflower. It's right at the link I provided for anyone interested. And for years you Russian invading the sovereign nation of Ukraine has been on your mind? You should have warned them. Maybe they would not have been so complacent. See the older thread from before the invasion. I repeatedly said that it would be a bad idea for Russia to invade Ukraine and that it won't end well for Russia. Putin should've joined the Sun forums The fact that I'm not 100% with Ukraine doesn't mean I'm rooting for the Russians. I just want peace and don't view the potential partition of Ukraine as a reason not to pursue peace.
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summer23
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Post by summer23 on Apr 11, 2024 13:43:19 GMT -5
Sure thing, soulflower. It's right at the link I provided for anyone interested. And for years you Russian invading the sovereign nation of Ukraine has been on your mind? You should have warned them. Maybe they would not have been so complacent. See the older thread from before the invasion. I repeatedly said that it would be a bad idea for Russia to invade Ukraine and that it won't end well for Russia. Putin should've joined the Sun forums The fact that I'm not 100% with Ukraine doesn't mean I'm rooting for the Russians. I just want peace and don't view the potential partition of Ukraine as a reason not to pursue peace. Why? Aren't there enough proxies?
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Post by ivanbalt on Apr 11, 2024 13:44:03 GMT -5
No one is ignoring anything. I think Israel is in the wrong. But this whole discussion began because you continue to place far, far more blame on Ukraine than Russia in their conflict.Examples??? I don't recall blaming Ukraine for Russia's invasion. I blame Putin and no one else for his decision to invade Ukraine. He had other options. It was a dumb decision and a miscalculation on his part. Aside from that, I've said Russia was 'provoked' by the US and NATO meddling in Ukraine between 2014 and 2022. I don't blame Ukraine for the pre-2022 provocations. Just because I accept the premise that Russia was provoked doesn't mean I believe their responses to the US/NATO provocations are appropriate. Much in the same way that I don't view Israel's response to Oct. 7th as proportional or appropriate. Multiple things can be true at the same time. Lastly, I've made it clear that I view Ukraine's cause as legitimate and view Russia's invasion as illegal. That doesn't mean I can't criticize Ukraine's leaders for rejecting peace talks and committing counterproductive acts of terror against Russia. This line right here sums it up perfectly. For two years, you've classified Russia attacks on Ukraine as war or part of war. Ukraine attacks Russia a handful of times and it's "terror".
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 13:53:55 GMT -5
Examples??? I don't recall blaming Ukraine for Russia's invasion. I blame Putin and no one else for his decision to invade Ukraine. He had other options. It was a dumb decision and a miscalculation on his part. Aside from that, I've said Russia was 'provoked' by the US and NATO meddling in Ukraine between 2014 and 2022. I don't blame Ukraine for the pre-2022 provocations. Just because I accept the premise that Russia was provoked doesn't mean I believe their responses to the US/NATO provocations are appropriate. Much in the same way that I don't view Israel's response to Oct. 7th as proportional or appropriate. Multiple things can be true at the same time. Lastly, I've made it clear that I view Ukraine's cause as legitimate and view Russia's invasion as illegal. That doesn't mean I can't criticize Ukraine's leaders for rejecting peace talks and committing counterproductive acts of terror against Russia. This line right here sums it up perfectly. For two years, you've classified Russia attacks on Ukraine as war or part of war. Ukraine attacks Russia a handful of times and it's "terror". And you predictably ignored the word “counterproductive”. Terrorism is an unfortunate part of war. I understand that. But mindless attacks that lead to escalatory acts by Russia aren’t productive for Ukraine. My points made in this thread specifically were that, Ukraine’s attacks on Russia’s energy infrastructure may backfire because Russia has the power to destroy Ukraine’s energy infrastructure. Which is currently happening.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 11, 2024 14:01:19 GMT -5
The fact that I'm not 100% with Ukraine doesn't mean I'm rooting for the Russians. I just want peace and don't view the potential partition of Ukraine as a reason not to pursue peace. Those two statements are in direct contradiction to each other. You're saying, just because I want to give Putin a big chunk of Ukraine and subject the Ukrainians their to further torture, rape, summary executions, labor camps, and forced deportations doesn't mean I'm rooting for Russia. That's exactly what it means.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 11, 2024 14:05:49 GMT -5
This line right here sums it up perfectly. For two years, you've classified Russia attacks on Ukraine as war or part of war. Ukraine attacks Russia a handful of times and it's "terror". And you predictably ignored the word “counterproductive”. Terrorism is an unfortunate part of war. I understand that. But mindless attacks that lead to escalatory acts by Russia aren’t productive for Ukraine. My points made in this thread specifically were that, Ukraine’s attacks on Russia’s energy infrastructure may backfire because Russia has the power to destroy Ukraine’s energy infrastructure. Which is currently happening. 1. It's not terrorism. 2. Russia's oil refineries are strategic military targets. Taking out these refineries serves two purposes a) less refined oil for the tanks and trucks that are part of Putin's invasion b) less refined oil exports which provide Putin with much needed cash to fund his genocidal invasion for territorial conquest 3. And again, Russia was going after Ukraine's energy infrastructure BEFORE Ukraine started hitting their oil refineries. 4. What's Ukraine supposed to do? The GOP congress pulled the rug out from under them by halting the flow of much needed ammunition and air defense capabilities. Ukraine is using the capabilities it has in a desperate attempt to thwart Putin's invasion. 5. The actual terrorism here is Putin indiscriminately lobbing missiles into residential areas far from the front lines on a nightly basis. twitter.com/maria_avdv/status/1778442791321768188
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 14:07:23 GMT -5
The fact that I'm not 100% with Ukraine doesn't mean I'm rooting for the Russians. I just want peace and don't view the potential partition of Ukraine as a reason not to pursue peace. Those two statements are in direct contradiction to each other. You're saying, just because I want to give Putin a big chunk of Ukraine and subject the Ukrainians their to further torture, rape, summary executions, labor camps, and forced deportations doesn't mean I'm rooting for Russia. That's exactly what it means. If we're not willing to put boots on the ground to fight the Russians, Ukraine isn't going to decisively win the war. It's going to end with some sort of negotiations and possibly a partition. The writing has been on the wall about that for a long time. Some are just in denial about the dire circumstances Ukraine is currently facing. As I said earlier, I'd rather they get to the peace talks phase now, than a year or so from now after thousands more inevitably die in this war. We (the USA) tried our best but it's highly unlikely that Ukraine will liberate the 20% of their country that Russia occupies in the near future. We can't control how long the Ukrainians choose to resist peace talks with Russia but we can control our aid and diplomatic policies towards Ukraine.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 11, 2024 14:16:05 GMT -5
Those two statements are in direct contradiction to each other. You're saying, just because I want to give Putin a big chunk of Ukraine and subject the Ukrainians their to further torture, rape, summary executions, labor camps, and forced deportations doesn't mean I'm rooting for Russia. That's exactly what it means. If we're not willing to put boots on the ground to fight the Russians, Ukraine isn't going to decisively win the war. It's going to end with some sort of negotiations and possibly a partition. The writing has been on the wall about that for a long time. Some are just in denial about the dire circumstances Ukraine is currently facing. As I said earlier, I'd rather they get to the peace talks phase now, than a year or so from now after thousands more inevitably die in this war. We (the USA) tried our best but it's highly unlikely that Ukraine will liberate the 20% of their country that Russia occupies in the near future. We can't control how long the Ukrainians choose to resist peace talks with Russia but we can control our aid and diplomatic policies towards Ukraine. This is just a large pile of dung. No one is talking about putting American soldiers into combat in Ukraine. It's a complete straw man. We're simply talking about giving Ukraine the weapons and ammunition they say they need and revitalizing our moribund defense production capabilities in the process. Ukraine has already shown that it can not only hold its own on the battlefield but that it can defeat the Russian military in detail. There's a reason that Putin holds about half as much Ukrainian territory to today than he did in late March 2022. No one is in denial about the dire circumstances Ukraine is facing. Some of us just understand that the reason the situation is so dire is because GOP extremists in the House have decided to tip the battlefield in Putin's favor by halting the flow of much need ammunition to the Ukrainians. Thankfully, the Europeans are trying to pick up the slack. We did not 'try our best'. We pulled the rug out from a democratic ally fighting off a brutal dictator and people like you are gleefully rubbing your hands together at the prospect of Putin's land grab.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 14:23:27 GMT -5
If we're not willing to put boots on the ground to fight the Russians, Ukraine isn't going to decisively win the war. It's going to end with some sort of negotiations and possibly a partition. The writing has been on the wall about that for a long time. Some are just in denial about the dire circumstances Ukraine is currently facing. As I said earlier, I'd rather they get to the peace talks phase now, than a year or so from now after thousands more inevitably die in this war. We (the USA) tried our best but it's highly unlikely that Ukraine will liberate the 20% of their country that Russia occupies in the near future. We can't control how long the Ukrainians choose to resist peace talks with Russia but we can control our aid and diplomatic policies towards Ukraine. This is just a large pile of dung. No one is talking about putting American soldiers into combat in Ukraine. Politico: Macron doesn’t rule out sending Western troops to UkraineWe're simply talking about giving Ukraine the weapons and ammunition they say they need and revitalizing our moribund defense production capabilities in the process. What we've done the last two years hasn't worked. They're no closer to defeating the Russians than they were in the Fall of 2022. Since last year, Russia has gained more of Ukraine's territory in the Donbas than Ukraine has recaptured. The Russians are dug-in and capable of occupying 20% of Ukraine indefinitely. Money and weapons buy time for Ukraine but doesn't fundamentally change anything in terms of Russia's advantages over Ukraine.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 11, 2024 14:57:20 GMT -5
Macron is the French president, not the American president. He's talking about French troops. Biden has made it clear that he does not support sending American troops to fight the Russians in Ukraine. We're simply talking about giving Ukraine the weapons and ammunition they say they need and revitalizing our moribund defense production capabilities in the process. What we've done the last two years hasn't worked. You're correct. Abruptly halting the flow of 155mm definitely did not help Ukraine on the battlefield. They're no closer to defeating the Russians than they were in the Fall of 2022. That's debatable as anyone paying attention to Crimea or what's left of Russia's Black Sea fleet can tell you.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 15:35:57 GMT -5
They're no closer to defeating the Russians than they were in the Fall of 2022. That's debatable as anyone paying attention to Crimea or what's left of Russia's Black Sea fleet can tell you.Ukraine's armed forces are no closer to liberating Crimea than they were ten years ago. It's delusional to suggest that they will militarily liberate Crimea in the near future. They've successfully hit a few Russian naval ships but it takes infantry to take and hold territory. This is an infantry war, not a naval war, because Ukraine doesn't have a navy.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 11, 2024 16:09:55 GMT -5
That's debatable as anyone paying attention to Crimea or what's left of Russia's Black Sea fleet can tell you. Ukraine's armed forces are no closer to liberating Crimea than they were ten years ago. It's delusional to suggest that they will militarily liberate Crimea in the near future. They've successfully hit a few Russian naval ships but it takes infantry to take and hold territory. This is an infantry war, not a naval war, because Ukraine doesn't have a navy. 1. They have driven Russia's Black Sea from... the western Black Sea. 2. They strike military targets in Crimea on a regular basis. 3. Russia's hold on Crimea is more tenuous today than it was a year ago. 4. Meanwhile, Ukraine has rendered the Kerch Bridge unreliable as a supply route
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 16:22:43 GMT -5
FYI, the Kerch bridge didn't open until 2018. Therefore the Russians don't need the bridge to maintain their occupation Crimea and they now control land access to the peninsula as the map I posted earlier shows.
You may now return to your state of delusion...
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 11, 2024 17:28:49 GMT -5
FYI, the Kerch bridge didn't open until 2018. Therefore the Russians don't need the bridge to maintain their occupation Crimea and they now control land access to the peninsula as the map I posted earlier shows. You may now return to your state of delusion... And you need to stop your cheerleading for Putin and learn how to read a map. Russia supplied Crimea with the Black Sea Fleet via Sevastopol which is why Ukraine's campaign to drive the Black Sea Fleet out of the western Black Sea Fleet and their strikes against the port of Sevastopol are significant. As for the land bridge... there's a reason Ukrainian troops crossed the Dnipro in Kherson oblast and there's a reason that partisans in the Melitopol area routinely target the rail lines running from Russia through Tokmak and Melitopol down into Ukraine. I get it. You want to reward Putin's land grab but the Ukrainians don't. They want to be free of Moscow's brutal oppression. It is not your relatives and loved ones who are suffering in the occupied areas Speaker Johnson should simply put the supplemental appropriations bill on the floor of the House so that it can be debated, voted on, and, if passed, we can resume giving Ukraine the weapons and ammunition they say they need. And, this time, that will include ATACMs
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 18:23:15 GMT -5
FYI, the Kerch bridge didn't open until 2018. Therefore the Russians don't need the bridge to maintain their occupation Crimea and they now control land access to the peninsula as the map I posted earlier shows. You may now return to your state of delusion... And you need to stop your cheerleading for Putin and learn how to read a map. I understand very well how to read a map. It appears you don’t. Despite $200 billion in aid for Ukraine since 2022, the map hasn’t changed in Ukraine’s favor in a year in a half. The failure of last summer’s Ukrainian counteroffensive proved that they’re not able to militarily defeat the Russians. Thats the inconvenient reality that we have to live with.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 11, 2024 18:29:29 GMT -5
And you need to stop your cheerleading for Putin and learn how to read a map. I understand very well how to read a map. It appears you don’t. Despite $200 billion in aid for Ukraine since 2022, the map hasn’t changed in Ukraine’s favor in a year in a half. The failure of last summer’s Ukrainian counteroffensive proved that they’re not able to militarily defeat the Russians. And the fact that Ukraine stopped the Russians at Mykolaiv, then kicked the Russians away from the outskirts of Kyiv, out of Sumy, Kharkiv, Snake Island, the right bank of the Dnipro, and the Western Black Sea while also slaughtering tens of thousands of Russians at Bakhmut and Avdiivka shows that they can. Last year's counteroffensive came to a halt because the GOP extremists in the House pulled the rug out from under Ukraine by withholding much needed ammunition. The amount of artillery shells we were supplying started declining in October 2023 and ground to a complete halt by December.
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