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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 23, 2024 18:58:36 GMT -5
Bollocks. You're confusing Ukraine's ingenuity and perseverance with Russia's actions. They've been hitting Ukrainian energy infrastructure since the late summer of 2022 at least. They did that between 2022 and 2023 then stopped. This is from January 2024 [/quote]That's simply not true. I mean, it so egregiously flies in the face of the accumulated evidence that I really have to wonder if you're just lying in your continuing effort to run cover for Putin. January 24 Your claim that Russia wasn't attacking civilian infrastructure until Ukraine starting hitting their oil refineries has been shown to be flat out false. From February 2024 So, again, your statement is false
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Post by soulflower on Mar 23, 2024 19:02:50 GMT -5
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 23, 2024 19:03:44 GMT -5
If Russia is "intentionally" killing Ukrainian civilians, What do you mean 'if'? You love quoting Human Rights Watch, well here they are showing that you're lying. May 2022 Sorry Ish. I don't trust your military analysis because you're extremely biased. One minute you're lecturing me about supporting the Houthi attacks on shipping in the Red Sea. The next minute you're cheering on Ukrainian acts of terror even when it involves Russian nazis who have killed civilians in their attacks. 1. These are not Ukrainian 'acts of terror'. Enough with your lies 2. You've got a lot of nerve accusing other people of 'bias'.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 23, 2024 19:05:31 GMT -5
So, again, your statement is false Take your complaint to the Associated Press: Nope, staying right here and confronting the multiple lies you've been spewing this afternoon in your effort to cover for Putin.
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Post by soulflower on Mar 23, 2024 19:10:07 GMT -5
If Russia is "intentionally" killing Ukrainian civilians, What do you mean 'if'? 1. These are not Ukrainian 'acts of terror'. Enough with your lies Ukrainian forces since 2014 have shelled pro-Russian rebel areas and killed thousands of civilians. More recently, Russian nazis allied with Ukraine have been shelling civilians in Belgorod Russia. That's terrorism in my book. Not to mention Ukraine's assassinations of civilians in Russia like Daria Dugina or the civilians killed in Ukraine's attack on the Crimea bridge. 2. You've got a lot of nerve accusing other people of 'bias'. We're all biased and I readily admit to my biases while others pretend to be above the fray.
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Post by soulflower on Mar 23, 2024 19:15:22 GMT -5
Take your complaint to the Associated Press: Nope, staying right here and confronting the multiple lies you've been spewing this afternoon in your effort to cover for Putin. Have you seen me once deny that Russia has committed war crimes in Ukraine? No. I don't doubt that Russian forces have and are committing war crimes in Ukraine. I've just noted the obvious fact that civilian casualties in Ukraine are far lower than other modern wars. If Russia is going out of their way to kill Ukrainian civilians, what explains this discrepancy? www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/7/is-israels-gaza-war-the-deadliest-conflict-for-children-in-modern-times
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 23, 2024 19:55:02 GMT -5
What do you mean 'if'? 1. These are not Ukrainian 'acts of terror'. Enough with your lies Ukrainian forces since 2014 have shelled pro-Russian rebel areas and killed thousands of civilians. More recently, Russian nazis allied with Ukraine have been shelling civilians in Belgorod Russia. And again, you're grasping at straws by using what may or may not have happened in 2014 to try and 'bothsides' what Putin's military has been doing on a nightly basis for the past 740 nights since his illegal invasion began in February 2022. The rebellion is southern Russia is being waged by Russians and they have literally not only urged civilians to evacuate but they created safe corridors in the early days of their attack. Tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians have been killed by the Russian military since Putin's invasion and that doesn't count the literally MILLIONS of Ukrainian civilians who have been displaced and are now living as refugees in Europe and elsewhere or the thousands who have been forcibly deported to Russia or those slaving away at the labor camps in the occupied areas. Not to mention the numerous Ukrainian cities, towns, and villages that have been reduced to rubble by Russian shelling. So, let's recap... First you tried to accuse Ukraine of terrorism - false Then you tried to suggest that Russia was going to retaliate even though they been hitting civilian infrastructure, residential areas, and hospitals since the invasion began - disingenuous Then you tried to suggest that Russia has somehow 'held back' on attacking infrastructure - a gigantic whopper of a lie Then you tried to suggest that Russia had stopped hitting civilian energy infrastructure - false and now you're trying to 'rinse, repeat' with your attempt to label the rebellion an act of terrorism - still false.
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Post by ishmael on Mar 23, 2024 19:58:52 GMT -5
Quit trying to defend Russia's systematic murders of civilians and the destruction of Ukranian civilian infrastructure by diverting the thread to Gaza. You want to talk Gaza, go to that thread. If Russia is "intentionally" killing Ukrainian civilians, why aren't they racking up the numbers that Israel is doing in Gaza? Either the Russians are doing a terrible job at hitting civilians in Ukraine or they're not going out of their way to kill Ukrainian civilians. Sorry Ish. I don't trust your military analysis because you're extremely biased. One minute you're lecturing me about supporting the Houthi attacks on shipping in the Red Sea. The next minute you're cheering on Ukrainian acts of terror even when it involves Russian nazis who have killed civilians in their attacks. We're both biased but only one of us openly admits his biases. Keep trying SF. Your defense of Russia should embarrass you.
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Post by soulflower on Mar 23, 2024 20:14:08 GMT -5
Ukrainian forces since 2014 have shelled pro-Russian rebel areas and killed thousands of civilians. More recently, Russian nazis allied with Ukraine have been shelling civilians in Belgorod Russia. And again, you're grasping at straws by using what may or may not have happened in 2014 to try and 'bothsides' what Putin's military has been doing on a nightly basis for the past 740 nights since his illegal invasion began in February 2022. There’s no “may or may not”. Amnesty, HRW, and other independent organizations documented Ukrainian war crimes from 2014 up until the 2022 invasion. Since February 2023, there are fewer human rights organizations reporting from Donetsk and Lughansk so it’s difficult to get accurate figures on more recent incidents. Ukrainian intelligence has taken credit for some attacks in Russia that injured and killed civilians. The CIA also admitted to the NY Times long ago that Ukraine was responsible for most of the drone attacks and assassinations in Russia since 2022. And yes, the Russian nazis who are shelling Belgorod are terrorists. This is who you’re denying are “terrorists”: Anti-Putin Militias Celebrating Attacks on Russia Are Filled With Neo-Nazis “Members of the Russian Volunteer Corps include a guy arrested for spreading the Christchurch Shooter’s Manifesto and the founder of a neo-Nazi death metal festival.”www.vice.com/en/article/3akdpy/anti-putin-militias-celebrating-attacks-on-russia-are-filled-with-neo-nazisThere are good and bad actors on both sides but nazis are never the “good guys”…
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Post by soulflower on Mar 23, 2024 20:15:34 GMT -5
If Russia is "intentionally" killing Ukrainian civilians, why aren't they racking up the numbers that Israel is doing in Gaza? Either the Russians are doing a terrible job at hitting civilians in Ukraine or they're not going out of their way to kill Ukrainian civilians. Sorry Ish. I don't trust your military analysis because you're extremely biased. One minute you're lecturing me about supporting the Houthi attacks on shipping in the Red Sea. The next minute you're cheering on Ukrainian acts of terror even when it involves Russian nazis who have killed civilians in their attacks. We're both biased but only one of us openly admits his biases. Keep trying SF. Your defense of Russia should embarrass you. Point me to where I’ve denied that Russia has committed war crimes in Ukraine. What are you talking about? Your crocodile tears about Russia targeting hospitals and schools in Ukraine is lost on me because you don’t criticize Israel doing those things pretty much every day since October 8 last year…
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 23, 2024 20:25:51 GMT -5
And again, you're grasping at straws by using what may or may not have happened in 2014 to try and 'bothsides' what Putin's military has been doing on a nightly basis for the past 740 nights since his illegal invasion began in February 2022. There’s no “may or may not”. The article you posted the last time you were talking about 2014 said 'apparently'. Human Rights Watch on the Donbas from February 2022 And yes, the Russian nazis who are shelling Belgorod are terrorists. There are good and bad actors on both sides… And again, these Russian rebels urged civilians to evacuate and even created a safe corridor for them to do so. Meanwhile, the Russian military has been using artillery in Kursk/Belgorod so it is not clear whose shells killed those civilians. You can try to 'bothsides' till you're blue in the face. The vast scope and scale of Russia's atrocities including the targeting of civilian infrastructure and residential areas dwarfs any individual instances of Ukrainian atrocities.
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Post by soulflower on Mar 23, 2024 21:03:05 GMT -5
There’s no “may or may not”. The article you posted the last time you were talking about 2014 said 'apparently'. Correct. I shared an article from 2014 intentionally to prove that it has been happening for almost a decade (July makes 10 years since Ukraine’s civil war began). I can share similar articles from Amnesty and HRW in more recent years up to 2021 if you want.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 23, 2024 21:20:38 GMT -5
The article you posted the last time you were talking about 2014 said 'apparently'.Correct. I shared an article from 2014 intentionally to prove that it has been happening for almost a decade (July makes 10 years since Ukraine’s civil war began). I can share similar articles from Amnesty and HRW in more recent years up to 2021 if you want. Again, posting the exact same articles over and over and over again about disputed events in the Donbas from five or six years ago in order to draw a false equivalency with the widespread and systematic atrocities that the Russian military has been committing almost every single day and night since February 2022 just makes you look desperate.
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Post by ishmael on Mar 24, 2024 9:51:23 GMT -5
Keep trying SF. Your defense of Russia should embarrass you. Point me to where I’ve denied that Russia has committed war crimes in Ukraine. What are you talking about? Your crocodile tears about Russia targeting hospitals and schools in Ukraine is lost on me because you don’t criticize Israel doing those things pretty much every day since October 8 last year… Like I said earlier, if you want to talk about Gaza, go to the Gaza thread. Your diversion efforts here are failing.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Mar 27, 2024 7:10:24 GMT -5
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 3, 2024 8:42:21 GMT -5
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 8, 2024 0:17:41 GMT -5
Of course, there are people here trying to show us that Putin's military is showing 'restraint' or not indiscriminately targeting civilians. They're full of it.
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Post by augustwest on Apr 8, 2024 6:09:29 GMT -5
Keep trying SF. Your defense of Russia should embarrass you. Point me to where I’ve denied that Russia has committed war crimes in Ukraine. What are you talking about? Your crocodile tears about Russia targeting hospitals and schools in Ukraine is lost on me because you don’t criticize Israel doing those things pretty much every day since October 8 last year… I will criticize both as evil.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 6:15:53 GMT -5
Ceasefire now.
Ukrainians need a ceasefire more than Russia.
The Ukrainians being drafted to fight now are people who don’t want to fight…
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 8, 2024 11:04:28 GMT -5
Ceasefire now. Ukrainians need a ceasefire more than Russia. Ukraine needs ammunition.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 6:53:24 GMT -5
Ukraine was warned not to strike Russia's infrastructure
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
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Post by summer23 on Apr 11, 2024 7:18:20 GMT -5
NATO jets scrambled after Russia launches devastating aerial attack on Ukraine NATO jets have been scrambled this morning over Russia’s latest missile and drone attack on Ukraine. The NATO planes were scrambled to defend Poland’s airspace as Russia used long-range rocket strikes to attack Ukraine in a five-hour bombardment. Late last month the Polish prime minister warned ‘we are in a pre-war era’ as Vladimir Putin’s missiles struck close to its border The Kremlin’s drone and missile strikes on Ukraine have forced Poland to scramble jets multiple times in recent weeks. A spokesperson from Warsaw’s Armed Forces said: ‘Polish and allied aircraft operate in the airspace, which may result in increased noise levels, especially in the southeast area of the country. Intense long-range aviation activity of the Russian Federation is observed tonight, due to rocket strikes on objects on Ukrainian territory. All necessary procedures aimed at ensuring the safety of Polish airspace have been launched’ www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/nato-jets-scrambled-after-russia-launches-devastating-aerial-attack-on-ukraine/ss-BB1lro14?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=dc7ff61b9f154ec0993128fc0745044b&ei=12#image=2Are you going to blame Poland? Some people get way too excited about the attempted demolishment of Ukraine by Russia. You know who you are.
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Post by ivanbalt on Apr 11, 2024 7:40:59 GMT -5
Keep trying SF. Your defense of Russia should embarrass you. Point me to where I’ve denied that Russia has committed war crimes in Ukraine. What are you talking about? Your crocodile tears about Russia targeting hospitals and schools in Ukraine is lost on me because you don’t criticize Israel doing those things pretty much every day since October 8 last year… How about those of us that criticize Russia and Israel? You're certainly not in this group. Here's your positions:
Gaza - Israel needs to stop killing civilians immediately and they're committing genocide.
Ukraine - Ukraine needs to surrender immediately and give up territory so Russia can maybe stop killing civilians.
You also cheer on the Houthis for targeting ships in solidarity with the Palestinians yet criticize Ukraine for targeting sites in Russia.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 7:58:50 GMT -5
Point me to where I’ve denied that Russia has committed war crimes in Ukraine. What are you talking about? Your crocodile tears about Russia targeting hospitals and schools in Ukraine is lost on me because you don’t criticize Israel doing those things pretty much every day since October 8 last year… How about those of us that criticize Russia and Israel? You're certainly not in this group. Here's your positions:
Ukraine - Ukraine needs to surrender immediately and give up territory so Russia can maybe stop killing civilians. We're in year three of this war and Ukraine's negotiating position keeps worsening. Ukraine's attempt to retake Crimea last summer ended in a massive failure despite all the weapons and financial aid they got (over $200 billion between the US and our allies). Ukraine is suffering severe manpower shortages and is running out of people who are willing to fight. Those are undeniable facts. WaPo: Front-line Ukrainian infantry units report acute shortage of soldiersPolitico: Draft-dodging plagues Ukraine as Kyiv faces acute soldier shortageFor the sake of Ukraine's future, they should trade land for peace. Whether the war ends today or two years from now, everyone basically agrees they won't recover Crimea and most of the areas currently occupied by the Russians. Better to negotiate now than later after thousands more die in this war. You also cheer on the Houthis for targeting ships in solidarity with the Palestinians yet criticize Ukraine for targeting sites in Russia.
The Houthis have nothing to lose after a decade of war and have chosen to accept the consequences of their actions. Maybe Ukraine's leaders, like the Houthis, are willing to accept the potential costs of their actions? Maybe they want Ukraine to be the Yemen of Europe? I can't speak for them. My comment that Ukraine was warned not to attack Russia's infrastrcture was directed moreso at the media personalities online who are upset that Russia is retaliating against Ukraine's energy infrastructure.
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Post by ivanbalt on Apr 11, 2024 8:11:43 GMT -5
How about those of us that criticize Russia and Israel? You're certainly not in this group. Here's your positions:
Ukraine - Ukraine needs to surrender immediately and give up territory so Russia can maybe stop killing civilians. We're in year three of this war and Ukraine's negotiating position keeps worsening. Ukraine's attempt to retake Crimea last summer ended in a massive failure despite all the weapons and financial aid they got (over $200 billion between the US and our allies). Ukraine is suffering severe manpower shortages and is running out of people who are willing to fight. Those are undeniable facts. WaPo: Front-line Ukrainian infantry units report acute shortage of soldiersPolitico: Draft-dodging plagues Ukraine as Kyiv faces acute soldier shortageFor the sake of Ukraine's future, they should trade land for peace. Whether the war ends today or two years from now, everyone basically agrees they won't recover Crimea and most of the areas currently occupied by the Russians. Better to negotiate now than later after thousands more die in this war. You also cheer on the Houthis for targeting ships in solidarity with the Palestinians yet criticize Ukraine for targeting sites in Russia.
The Houthis have nothing to lose after a decade of war and have chosen to accept the consequences of their actions. Maybe Ukraine's leaders, like the Houthis, are willing to accept the potential costs of their actions? I can't speak for them. My comment that Ukraine was warned not to attack Russia's infrastrcture was directed moreso at the media personalities online who are upset that Russia is retaliating against Ukraine's energy infrastructure. Throughout all of this, your position continues to be that Ukraine is 100% responsible for ending that war yet Israel is 100% responsible for ending their war. You have to at least kind of see the contradictions there.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 8:17:43 GMT -5
We're in year three of this war and Ukraine's negotiating position keeps worsening. Ukraine's attempt to retake Crimea last summer ended in a massive failure despite all the weapons and financial aid they got (over $200 billion between the US and our allies). Ukraine is suffering severe manpower shortages and is running out of people who are willing to fight. Those are undeniable facts. WaPo: Front-line Ukrainian infantry units report acute shortage of soldiersPolitico: Draft-dodging plagues Ukraine as Kyiv faces acute soldier shortageFor the sake of Ukraine's future, they should trade land for peace. Whether the war ends today or two years from now, everyone basically agrees they won't recover Crimea and most of the areas currently occupied by the Russians. Better to negotiate now than later after thousands more die in this war. The Houthis have nothing to lose after a decade of war and have chosen to accept the consequences of their actions. Maybe Ukraine's leaders, like the Houthis, are willing to accept the potential costs of their actions? I can't speak for them. My comment that Ukraine was warned not to attack Russia's infrastrcture was directed moreso at the media personalities online who are upset that Russia is retaliating against Ukraine's energy infrastructure. Throughout all of this, your position continues to be that Ukraine is 100% responsible for ending that war yet Israel is 100% responsible for ending their war. You have to at least kind of see the contradictions there. That's unreasonable take. Am I saying Ukraine should give 100% of their country to Russia? No. Am I saying Putin shouldn't make any concessions for peace? No Am I saying Palestinians should control all of Israel? No Am I saying Hamas shouldn't make any concessions? No I'm expect 'give and take' as part of peace talks in both conflicts. I'm in favor of a ceasefire in both conflicts. Maybe the problem is that you keep misrepresenting my stances?
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Post by ivanbalt on Apr 11, 2024 8:24:22 GMT -5
Throughout all of this, your position continues to be that Ukraine is 100% responsible for ending that war yet Israel is 100% responsible for ending their war. You have to at least kind of see the contradictions there. That's unreasonable take. Am I saying Ukraine should give 100% of their country to Russia? No. Am I saying Putin shouldn't make any concessions for peace? No Am I saying Palestinians should control all of Israel? No Am I saying Hamas shouldn't make any concessions? No I'm expect 'give and take' as part of peace talks in both conflicts. I'm in favor of a ceasefire in both conflicts. Maybe the problem is that you keep misrepresenting my stances? If it was just me saying this, maybe. In the one thread, you have tons of post about everything bad Israel is doing. Yet in these threads, it's tons of posts about how Ukraine is losing and should give up. Russia continually targets civilians yet it's always time for Ukraine to surrender.
South Africa wants wants the ICJ to prosecute Israel and you're for it. Yet countries put sanctions on Russia and you think it's pointless.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 8:45:21 GMT -5
If it was just me saying this, maybe. In the one thread, you have tons of post about everything bad Israel is doing. Yet in these threads, it's tons of posts about how Ukraine is losing and should give up. Russia continually targets civilians yet it's always time for Ukraine to surrender. There you go again with the absolutes. Define "give up". If a ceasefire is declared tomorrow and Ukraine controls 80% of their borders, how is that an outcome they can't live with? And where do you get the idea that I don't expect Ukraine to competently defend the 80% of the country that remains under their control? - Ukraine fought the world's third-largest military to a stalemate.
- Putin will not achieve his objectives of changing the government in Kyiv or stopping the West from arming Ukraine. While I don't see how Ukraine can get to total victory, I also don't think it's likely that Russia can achieve total victory. Both sides will need to make compromises for peace. I'll grant you that I approach this war with less emotion and more realism than the Israel-Gaza thing but that's largely due to the different nature of the wars. For example in Ukraine, 10,000 or so civilians have been killed in two years. In contrast, in Gaza alone, 30,000 civilians, 12,000 of them children, have been killed in SIX MONTHS. That's one of worst rates of civilian casualties in the history of modern wars. To me, the war in Ukraine looks more like a conventional war while the stuff in Gaza looks like ethnic cleansing or genocide. The numbers don't lie. How can anyone view Gaza as a normal war?
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 11, 2024 8:49:56 GMT -5
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Post by ivanbalt on Apr 11, 2024 10:29:09 GMT -5
If it was just me saying this, maybe. In the one thread, you have tons of post about everything bad Israel is doing. Yet in these threads, it's tons of posts about how Ukraine is losing and should give up. Russia continually targets civilians yet it's always time for Ukraine to surrender. There you go again with the absolutes. Define "give up". If a ceasefire is declared tomorrow and Ukraine controls 80% of their borders, how is that an outcome they can't live with? And where do you get the idea that I don't expect Ukraine to competently defend the 80% of the country that remains under their control? - Ukraine fought the world's third-largest military to a stalemate.
- Putin will not achieve his objectives of changing the government in Kyiv or stopping the West from arming Ukraine. While I don't see how Ukraine can get to total victory, I also don't think it's likely that Russia can achieve total victory. Both sides will need to make compromises for peace. I'll grant you that I approach this war with less emotion and more realism than the Israel-Gaza thing but that's largely due to the different nature of the wars. For example in Ukraine, 10,000 or so civilians have been killed in two years. In contrast, in Gaza alone, 30,000 civilians, 12,000 of them children, have been killed in SIX MONTHS. That's one of worst rates of civilian casualties in the history of modern wars. To me, the war in Ukraine looks more like a conventional war while the stuff in Gaza looks like ethnic cleansing or genocide. The numbers don't lie. How can anyone view Gaza as a normal war? From a military standpoint, the only difference between Gaza and Ukraine is that Gaza is a fraction of the size of Ukraine. If Russia was attacking Gaza, they'd be no different that Israel.
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