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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 6, 2024 17:10:05 GMT -5
And your bang out of order with that statement. It's just a crass attempt to shut down his valid opinion. No, you guys have been coming on here every day for the past five months spewing mouth frothing hatred of Israel. I have every right to point that out.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 6, 2024 17:24:57 GMT -5
And your bang out of order with that statement. It's just a crass attempt to shut down his valid opinion. No, you guys have been coming on here every day for the past five months spewing mouth frothing hatred of Israel. I have every right to point that out. I don’t hate anyone or any country. I hate the actions of individuals and nations. Before October 7th and even moreso after, Israel blatantly ignored international law and human rights laws. So their bombing of a consulate and killing a bunch of diplomats isn’t surprising. What’s surprising and disappointing is the extent to which the Biden administration has run cover for Israel’s blatant flaunting of international law and abuses of human rights…
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Post by soulflower on Apr 6, 2024 17:35:02 GMT -5
The strike, two members of Iran’s Revolutionary Guards said, targeted a secret meeting in which Iranian intelligence officials and Palestinian militants gathered to discuss the war in Gaza. Among them were leaders of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a group armed and funded by Iran. Given that you were gullible enough to believe Israel’s baseless claims about Al Shifa hospital, I’m not surprised to see you spreading their lies again. You probably also believe their striking the World Central Kitchen convoy THREE TIMES, was an accident. It takes a lot to make the Iranians look more rational but if they choose not to escalate by directly attacking Israel, they will look more mature. Lastly, embassies and consulates are often used for espionage and other dual-civilian and intelligence purposes. Even if it’s true that there were Palestinian terrorist operatives at the consulate at the time, it still doesn’t justify Israel’s strike on a diplomatic facility. Hence why the Biden administration isn’t defending Israel. I understand that Israel went through a traumatic experience last October and that sometimes leads to irrational actions. But Americans have the luxury to analyze this stuff soberly. We don’t have to and shouldn’t co-sign unreasonable and destructive decisions Israel is making.
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 6, 2024 19:18:03 GMT -5
And your bang out of order with that statement. It's just a crass attempt to shut down his valid opinion. No, you guys have been coming on here every day for the past five months spewing mouth frothing hatred of Israel. I have every right to point that out. And you are spewing mouth frothing bollox as usual. Calm down, try 'criticism' instead of 'hatred', although I do hate what Netanyahu and his jackbooted IDF have been pursuing in Gaza. I admit freely that I sympathise with the Gazan civilians, you are with Israel, though you don't have the nads to come right out with it.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 6, 2024 20:03:28 GMT -5
The strike, two members of Iran’s Revolutionary Guards said, targeted a secret meeting in which Iranian intelligence officials and Palestinian militants gathered to discuss the war in Gaza. Among them were leaders of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a group armed and funded by Iran. Given that you were gullible enough to believe Israel’s baseless claims about Al Shifa hospital, I’m not surprised to see you spreading their lies again. I'm not the one spreading lies here. READ FOR COMPREHENSION. The article sites IRANIAN, not Israeli sources, for the claim about the meeting.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 6, 2024 20:06:39 GMT -5
So their bombing of a consulate and killing a bunch of diplomats isn’t surprising. Why are you perpetuating this lie? Iran has admitted that they were military officers coordinating with Hezbollah.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 6, 2024 21:48:40 GMT -5
So their bombing of a consulate and killing a bunch of diplomats isn’t surprising. Why are you perpetuating this lie? Iran has admitted that they were military officers coordinating with Hezbollah. Israel has been retaliating against Hezbollah. They’ve been attacking each other for years. Attacking Iran is an escalation in the same way that it would be escalatory for Russia to target a US embassy or consulate due to our coordination with and support for Ukraine. I’m sure you understand that but insist on acting as if international law or the rules don’t apply to Israel.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 7, 2024 5:41:54 GMT -5
Why are you perpetuating this lie? Iran has admitted that they were military officers coordinating with Hezbollah. Israel has been retaliating against Hezbollah. They’ve been attacking each other for years. Attacking Iran is an escalation in the same way that it would be escalatory for Russia to target a US embassy or consulate due to our coordination with and support for Ukraine. I’m sure you understand that but insist on acting as if international law or the rules don’t apply to Israel. When have I ever said that? Iran is funding, arming, and coordinating these attacks against Israel via their proxies. Until you acknowledge that fact it is pointless trying to have a conversation with you
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Post by soulflower on Apr 7, 2024 6:10:34 GMT -5
Israel has been retaliating against Hezbollah. They’ve been attacking each other for years. Attacking Iran is an escalation in the same way that it would be escalatory for Russia to target a US embassy or consulate due to our coordination with and support for Ukraine. I’m sure you understand that but insist on acting as if international law or the rules don’t apply to Israel. When have I ever said that? Iran is funding, arming, and coordinating these attacks against Israel via their proxies. Until you acknowledge that fact it is pointless trying to have a conversation with you You’re deflecting because you for some reason can’t acknowledge that attacking diplomatic facilities is a major violation of the Vienna Convention. Why do you run cover for Israel?
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Post by vosa on Apr 7, 2024 9:53:15 GMT -5
When have I ever said that? Iran is funding, arming, and coordinating these attacks against Israel via their proxies. Until you acknowledge that fact it is pointless trying to have a conversation with you You’re deflecting because you for some reason can’t acknowledge that attacking diplomatic facilities is a major violation of the Vienna Convention. Why do you run cover for Israel? This might be why. The primary purpose of the Iranian consulate in Damascus, which was hit by an Israeli air strike this week, has likely never been the dispensing of visas for those wishing to visit the Islamic Republic. Its real function has seemingly been to act as a command and control centre for Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC), enabling Tehran to operate its terrorist network throughout the Middle East from the heart of Damascus.Iran, like Hamas and other terrorist groups, always hide their resources amid seemly innocent facades; schools, hospitals, people, embassies, etc. They do this because they know that people like you will always excuse this despicable behavior.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 7, 2024 10:15:42 GMT -5
Diplomats often coordinate with undercover spies and military officials. There’s nothing unusual or nefarious about Iranian military or intelligence officials meeting in an embassy or consulate. The fact that military or intelligence officials visit diplomatic facilities doesn’t make them legitimate military targets under the Vienna Convention…
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 7, 2024 11:20:30 GMT -5
Diplomats often coordinate with undercover spies and military officials. There’s nothing unusual or nefarious about Iranian military or intelligence officials meeting in an embassy or consulate. The fact that military or intelligence officials visit diplomatic facilities doesn’t make them legitimate military targets under the Vienna Convention… And, of course, Israel wouldn't dream of using their embassies around the world for assisting their own military purposes, oh no.
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Post by vosa on Apr 7, 2024 18:17:44 GMT -5
Diplomats often coordinate with undercover spies and military officials. There’s nothing unusual or nefarious about Iranian military or intelligence officials meeting in an embassy or consulate. The fact that military or intelligence officials visit diplomatic facilities doesn’t make them legitimate military targets under the Vienna Convention… And, of course, Israel wouldn't dream of using their embassies around the world for assisting their own military purposes, oh no. Got any proof to back up that accusation?
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Post by soulflower on Apr 7, 2024 20:17:37 GMT -5
And, of course, Israel wouldn't dream of using their embassies around the world for assisting their own military purposes, oh no. Got any proof to back up that accusation? In terms of espionage, most people think of undercover spies while forgetting that diplomats are spies too. They're just not undercover. Their presence is known and allowed under the Vienna Convention because diplomats mainly relay information between governments when they're not collecting intelligence. Using embassies or diplomatic facilities for espionage operations is SOP for most countries. Embassies are spy bases essentially. AP: Spies posing as diplomats have a long history “Embassies and diplomatic mission for hundreds and hundreds of years have been used to spy in adversaries’ lands,” said retired Army Col. Christopher Costa, executive director of the International Spy Museum in Washington. He said even when spies are discovered, it’s often more fruitful to follow them discreetly than to expel them. “The cat-and-mouse game of counterespionage is about understanding who that officer is in touch with.”
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 7, 2024 23:25:12 GMT -5
Diplomats often coordinate with undercover spies and military officials. There’s nothing unusual or nefarious about Iranian military or intelligence officials meeting in an embassy or consulate. The fact that military or intelligence officials visit diplomatic facilities doesn’t make them legitimate military targets under the Vienna Convention… And, of course, Israel wouldn't dream of using their embassies around the world for assisting their own military purposes, oh no. Where is Israel using terrorist groups to run a proxy war against another country?
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 7, 2024 23:32:51 GMT -5
Got any proof to back up that accusation? In terms of espionage, most people think of undercover spies while forgetting that diplomats are spies too. They're just not undercover. Their presence is known and allowed under the Vienna Convention because diplomats mainly relay information between governments when they're not collecting intelligence. But, shocking, that's not what we're talking about here. Even Iran has admitted that these guys were generals and officers in their Quds Force which was formed shortly after the revolution and which arms, funds, trains, and coordinates Hamas and Hezbollah attacks against Israel. I'm not going to shed a tear for these guys or the terrorists that they were meeting with at the time of the attack.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 6:12:09 GMT -5
And, of course, Israel wouldn't dream of using their embassies around the world for assisting their own military purposes, oh no. Where is Israel using terrorist groups to run a proxy war against another country? Israel doesn’t use proxies, they commit terrorism themselves. 2021 - Mossad killed Iran’s top nuke scientist with remote-operated machine gunwww.timesofisrael.com/mossad-killed-irans-top-nuke-scientist-with-remote-operated-machine-gun-nyt/And just you be clear, you’re not saying you opposed the US arming Islamic extremists in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets are you? (Osama Bin Laden was among the anti-Soviet fighters that we armed)
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 6:14:25 GMT -5
In terms of espionage, most people think of undercover spies while forgetting that diplomats are spies too. They're just not undercover. Their presence is known and allowed under the Vienna Convention because diplomats mainly relay information between governments when they're not collecting intelligence. But, shocking, that's not what we're talking about here. Even Iran has admitted that these guys were generals and officers in their Quds Force which was formed shortly after the revolution and which arms, funds, trains, and coordinates Hamas and Hezbollah attacks against Israel. I'm not going to shed a tear for these guys or the terrorists that they were meeting with at the time of the attack. I’m not shedding tears for them either. I haven’t objected to Israel killing Iranian military personnel in other circumstances. In this case, they bombed a diplomatic facility and harmed Iranian diplomats as well as the Iranian general. I’ve been asking why you think it’s okay for Israel to violate the Vienna Convention? Do you apply any standards at all when it comes to Israel? Or are you just blindly pro-Israel?
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 8, 2024 6:36:10 GMT -5
So Biden is president of the world? Huh. To many here in this country he’s not even the real president.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 6:40:52 GMT -5
So Biden is president of the world? Huh. To many here in this country he’s not even the real president. The US is the most powerful country in the world. Is that a fact or not? Which means the President of the United States has a disproportionate level of influence over geopolitical events for better or worse. If this stuff were happening on Trump’s watch, you definitely wouldn’t object to noting bad stuff that happens on his watch I assume…
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 8, 2024 7:42:41 GMT -5
And, of course, Israel wouldn't dream of using their embassies around the world for assisting their own military purposes, oh no. Where is Israel using terrorist groups to run a proxy war against another country? Another non sequitur. But if you must, Israel is a state born out of terrorism, using it's IDF terrorists against another country.
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Post by vosa on Apr 8, 2024 10:36:47 GMT -5
Got any proof to back up that accusation? In terms of espionage, most people think of undercover spies while forgetting that diplomats are spies too. They're just not undercover. Their presence is known and allowed under the Vienna Convention because diplomats mainly relay information between governments when they're not collecting intelligence. Using embassies or diplomatic facilities for espionage operations is SOP for most countries. Embassies are spy bases essentially. AP: Spies posing as diplomats have a long history “Embassies and diplomatic mission for hundreds and hundreds of years have been used to spy in adversaries’ lands,” said retired Army Col. Christopher Costa, executive director of the International Spy Museum in Washington. He said even when spies are discovered, it’s often more fruitful to follow them discreetly than to expel them. “The cat-and-mouse game of counterespionage is about understanding who that officer is in touch with.” Very interesting. One small problem. These guys were not posing as diplomats.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 10:41:20 GMT -5
In terms of espionage, most people think of undercover spies while forgetting that diplomats are spies too. They're just not undercover. Their presence is known and allowed under the Vienna Convention because diplomats mainly relay information between governments when they're not collecting intelligence. Using embassies or diplomatic facilities for espionage operations is SOP for most countries. Embassies are spy bases essentially. AP: Spies posing as diplomats have a long history “Embassies and diplomatic mission for hundreds and hundreds of years have been used to spy in adversaries’ lands,” said retired Army Col. Christopher Costa, executive director of the International Spy Museum in Washington. He said even when spies are discovered, it’s often more fruitful to follow them discreetly than to expel them. “The cat-and-mouse game of counterespionage is about understanding who that officer is in touch with.”Very interesting. One small problem. These guys were not posing as diplomats. That doesn't matter. For example, if a US general visits a US embassy or consulate in Ukraine, it doesn't make the diplomatic facilities legit military targets for Russia or Iran to bomb. Ignoring or violating international law isn't good for anyone. The US should be doing everything we can to strengthen international laws and norms. Isn't that what President Biden promised to do?
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 8, 2024 10:43:12 GMT -5
So Biden is president of the world? Huh. To many here in this country he’s not even the real president. The US is the most powerful country in the world. Is that a fact or not? Which means the President of the United States has a disproportionate level of influence over geopolitical events for better or worse. If this stuff were happening on Trump’s watch, you definitely wouldn’t object to noting bad stuff that happens on his watch I assume… You're being ridiculous. But beyond that, you keep clamoring for your 'multi-polar world' and now that you're getting a preview of just what that would look like your slamming Biden for not being able to control events in Ecuador. And no, none of us were slamming Trump because two Latin American countries were having a spat.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 10:46:31 GMT -5
The US is the most powerful country in the world. Is that a fact or not? Which means the President of the United States has a disproportionate level of influence over geopolitical events for better or worse. If this stuff were happening on Trump’s watch, you definitely wouldn’t object to noting bad stuff that happens on his watch I assume… You're being ridiculous. But beyond that, you keep clamoring for your 'multi-polar world' and now that you're getting a preview of just what that would look like your slamming Biden for not being able to control events in Ecuador. And no, none of us were slamming Trump because two Latin American countries were having a spat. And your co-signing of Israel's blatant violation of the Vienna Convention is helping to advance the neoconservative goal of weakening the UN and international institutions. Realists like myself want to defend and strengthen adherence to international law because it's better for global stability. If all countries stop following international laws then it's the law of the jungle everywhere...
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 8, 2024 10:47:23 GMT -5
But, shocking, that's not what we're talking about here. Even Iran has admitted that these guys were generals and officers in their Quds Force which was formed shortly after the revolution and which arms, funds, trains, and coordinates Hamas and Hezbollah attacks against Israel. I'm not going to shed a tear for these guys or the terrorists that they were meeting with at the time of the attack. I’m not shedding tears for them either. I haven’t objected to Israel killing Iranian military personnel in other circumstances. In this case, they bombed a diplomatic facility and harmed Iranian diplomats as well as the Iranian general. I’ve been asking why you think it’s okay for Israel to violate the Vienna Convention? Do you apply any standards at all when it comes to Israel? Or are you just blindly pro-Israel? The real question is why you think Iran should have impunity to use Hamas and Hezbollah to launch attacks against Israel. And, if you have been reading my posts since October 7th, you'll see that I am anything but 'blindly pro-Israel'. I just don't look at Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Houthis as some kind of 'glorious resistance'.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 8, 2024 10:49:28 GMT -5
You're being ridiculous. But beyond that, you keep clamoring for your 'multi-polar world' and now that you're getting a preview of just what that would look like your slamming Biden for not being able to control events in Ecuador. And no, none of us were slamming Trump because two Latin American countries were having a spat. And your co-signing of Israel's blatant violation of the Vienna Convention is helping to advance the neoconservative goal of weakening the UN and international institutions. Realists like myself want to defend and strengthen adherence to international law because it's better for global stability. If all countries stop following international laws then it's the law of the jungle everywhere... I'm not co-signing anything. Watching you suddenly get all riled up about countries 'not following international laws' is rich, let me tell you.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 11:05:10 GMT -5
I’m not shedding tears for them either. I haven’t objected to Israel killing Iranian military personnel in other circumstances. In this case, they bombed a diplomatic facility and harmed Iranian diplomats as well as the Iranian general. I’ve been asking why you think it’s okay for Israel to violate the Vienna Convention? Do you apply any standards at all when it comes to Israel? Or are you just blindly pro-Israel? The real question is why you think Iran should have impunity to use Hamas and Hezbollah to launch attacks against Israel. Israel retaliates against Hezbollah. Over 200 Hezbollah fighters have been killed by Israel since last October. And Israel has killed IRGC personnel in other attacks in Syria. So it's not as if Iran's support for Hezbollah has not been addressed violently by Israel previously. This is the way wars are fought today Joy. Via proxies instead of direct conflict between major global powers. The US armed Islamic extremists in Afghanistan and Syria to fight our geopolitical adversaries. Israel supported Al Qaeda-linked rebels in Syria who targeted Assad's forces and committed atrocities against Syrian Christians. Jerusalem Post: Israel treating al-Qaida fighters wounded in Syria civil warWar On The Rocks: Israel's involvement with the Syrian rebelsThings are messy in the Middle East but none of those things justify Israel attacking diplomatic facilities or killing diplomats. And, if you have been reading my posts since October 7th, you'll see that I am anything but 'blindly pro-Israel'. I just don't look at Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Houthis as some kind of 'glorious resistance'. Your feelings about Iran or Muslim countries in the Middle East in general are irrelevant to international law. If you can't even condemn Israel's blatant violation of the Vienna Convention, then you may be pro-Israel. There are certain lines that everyone agrees shouldn't be crossed.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 11:22:59 GMT -5
And your co-signing of Israel's blatant violation of the Vienna Convention is helping to advance the neoconservative goal of weakening the UN and international institutions. Realists like myself want to defend and strengthen adherence to international law because it's better for global stability. If all countries stop following international laws then it's the law of the jungle everywhere... I'm not co-signing anything. Watching you suddenly get all riled up about countries 'not following international laws' is rich, let me tell you. How so? Unlike others, I'm consistent on international law for the reasons I described above.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 11:41:55 GMT -5
When citing posts from other threads, please link to the thread the post comes from so we can view the original post in context.
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