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Post by soulflower on Apr 9, 2024 11:13:33 GMT -5
Iran so far has not retaliated. Sounds like they've decided not to be baited by Israel's barbaric behavior into responding irrationally. Yes, because the Iranian regime has always been a paragon of virtue, harmony, and human rights Iran is not but neither is Israel. Last I checked, Iran didn't murder 12,000 children in less than six months.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 9, 2024 11:14:23 GMT -5
He actually celebrated them and then after the first innocent mariners got killed he got real quiet. I still support their efforts to stop the genocide in Gaza but you guys went quiet and stopped commenting on that topic
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Post by soulflower on Apr 9, 2024 11:20:11 GMT -5
Hezbollah is a terrorist organization organized and trained by Iran's Revolutionary Guards and the destruction of the sovereign state of Israel has always been one of its primary goals. Azov militia fighters have trained with NATO and used Western weapons that were donated to Ukraine. The Azov Battalion are literal Ukrainian Nazis who were formed as a militia to defend Ukraine against pro-Russian rebels and Russian mercenaries back when the Ukrainian military was too weak to stand up to Russia. Time - Inside A White Supremacist Militia in UkraineHezbollah is a militia that was formed to defend Lebanon against Israeli aggression. Many things can be true at once. Hezbollah and Azov are extremists but they also support the regional defense against aggression from a neighboring country. It's only difficult to accept the similarities when you don't think Muslims or Arabs should be viewed as no different from Westerners or no less human than us.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 9, 2024 11:26:19 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Apr 9, 2024 11:29:25 GMT -5
I thought Joy was smart enough to know that just because I diss Israel doesn't mean I like or respect Iran's government.
I was wrong to make that assumption I guess.
As an agnostic, I reject religious extremism in general. Both Islamic and Jewish extremism are bad in my opinion.
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
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Post by summer23 on Apr 9, 2024 13:09:20 GMT -5
My post was clear. Not sure what your point is. My point is that you support terrorists when you agree with their motives. Clearly you agreed with the terrorists in 2023. I mean, own it fully.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 9, 2024 13:20:05 GMT -5
My post was clear. Not sure what your point is. My point is that you support terrorists when you agree with their motives. Clearly you agreed with the terrorists in 2023. I mean, own it fully. I've owned it. Likewise, I expect those who support Ukraine's Nazi militias or endorse Ukraine's terror attacks in Russia to do the same. The Azov Battalion, like Hezbollah, expresses ideological views that I strongly disagree with but I recognize that they rose in response to Russian aggression the same way that Hezbollah rose as a response to Israeli aggression.
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
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Post by summer23 on Apr 9, 2024 14:39:42 GMT -5
My point is that you support terrorists when you agree with their motives. Clearly you agreed with the terrorists in 2023. I mean, own it fully. I've owned it. Likewise, I expect those who support Ukraine's Nazi militias or endorse Ukraine's terror attacks in Russia to do the same. The Azov Battalion, like Hezbollah, expresses ideological views that I strongly disagree with but I recognize that they rose in response to Russian aggression the same way that Hezbollah rose as a response to Israeli aggression. This is why you lose any credibility. Putting forth crap such as this.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 9, 2024 14:54:09 GMT -5
I've owned it. Likewise, I expect those who support Ukraine's Nazi militias or endorse Ukraine's terror attacks in Russia to do the same. The Azov Battalion, like Hezbollah, expresses ideological views that I strongly disagree with but I recognize that they rose in response to Russian aggression the same way that Hezbollah rose as a response to Israeli aggression. This is why you lose any credibility. Putting forth crap such as this. Please cite the inaccuracies in my post. Quit with the personal attacks when you have no response to factual statements.
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
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Post by summer23 on Apr 9, 2024 15:37:28 GMT -5
This is why you lose any credibility. Putting forth crap such as this. Please cite the inaccuracies in my post. Quit with the personal attacks when you have no response to factual statements. I didn't attack you. I stated a fact.
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
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Post by summer23 on Apr 9, 2024 15:40:35 GMT -5
I thought Joy was smart enough to know that just because I diss Israel doesn't mean I like or respect Iran's government. I was wrong to make that assumption I guess. As an agnostic, I reject religious extremism in general. Both Islamic and Jewish extremism are bad in my opinion. Please stop with the personal attacks.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 9, 2024 15:55:50 GMT -5
Fact: Russia invaded Ukraine and the Azov Battalion is a response to Russian aggression
Fact: Israel invaded Lebanon multiple times over the last 40 years and Hezbollah is a response to Israeli aggression
We all agree on the former but some are having a difficult time with acknowledging Israel's aggression towards their neighbors.
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Post by vosa on Apr 9, 2024 17:11:29 GMT -5
Fact: Russia invaded Ukraine and the Azov Battalion is a response to Russian aggression Fact: Israel invaded Lebanon multiple times over the last 40 years and Hezbollah is a response to Israeli aggressionWe all agree on the former but some are having a difficult time with acknowledging Israel's aggression towards their neighbors. Why don't you tell us why Israel invaded Lebanon multiple times over the last 40 years? Could it be that if the "why" was known your narrative would begin to crumble? Here the "why".
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Post by soulflower on Apr 9, 2024 20:59:09 GMT -5
Great segment on this topic
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 10, 2024 6:00:59 GMT -5
Great segment on this topic I had to give up on this one. That woman's diction and intonation were terrible.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 10, 2024 14:10:53 GMT -5
I thought Joy was smart enough to know that just because I diss Israel doesn't mean I like or respect Iran's government. I was wrong to make that assumption I guess. As an agnostic, I reject religious extremism in general. Both Islamic and Jewish extremism are bad in my opinion. Always with the insults. Maybe the issue isn't the 'intelligence' of the other posters on this forum or their 'ability' to understand what you perceive to be your own 'sophisticated', 'learned', and 'nuanced' insights. Maybe the issue is that you have a knee jerk tendency to try and both sides any issue involving a brutal anti-western authoritarian regime. We actually read and understand your posts quite well.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 10, 2024 14:21:30 GMT -5
I thought Joy was smart enough to know that just because I diss Israel doesn't mean I like or respect Iran's government. I was wrong to make that assumption I guess. As an agnostic, I reject religious extremism in general. Both Islamic and Jewish extremism are bad in my opinion. Always with the insults. Maybe the issue isn't the 'intelligence' of the other posters on this forum or their 'ability' to understand what you perceive to be your own 'sophisticated', 'learned', and 'nuanced' insights.Maybe the issue is that you have a knee jerk tendency to try and both sides any issue involving a brutal anti-western authoritarian regime. We actually read and understand your posts quite well. "Nuance" is good. You should try it sometime. I've said repeatedly here that I don't view the world in a "good guy vs bad guys" framework. You can if you want but I would describe myself as a moral relativist. There is the capability to do good and evil in every human-being. And on the geopolitical level, every nation is capable of doing good and evil things. Not everything that Israel does is morally right. Not everything that Iran does is morally wrong. Both countries have done good and evil things to each other over the last few decades. As for recent events, no matter what you think of Iran, bombing an embassy is dead wrong and a clear escalation by Israel. Rather than give kneejerk responses to complex news events, I try to understand why things happen and add context on topics where I have some insights to share. Not everyone appreciates that and some people misunderstand my intent. Short of wanting to bait Iran into total war, I can't imagine any rational reasons why Israel bombed Iran's embassy. It has zero impact on Iran's support for Hezbollah and other groups in the Middle East.
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 10, 2024 14:24:41 GMT -5
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 10, 2024 14:32:27 GMT -5
I've owned it. Likewise, I expect those who support Ukraine's Nazi militias or endorse Ukraine's terror attacks in Russia to do the same. The Azov Battalion, like Hezbollah, expresses ideological views that I strongly disagree with but I recognize that they rose in response to Russian aggression the same way that Hezbollah rose as a response to Israeli aggression. This is why you lose any credibility. Putting forth crap such as this. 100 percent
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 10, 2024 14:43:43 GMT -5
Always with the insults. Maybe the issue isn't the 'intelligence' of the other posters on this forum or their 'ability' to understand what you perceive to be your own 'sophisticated', 'learned', and 'nuanced' insights.Maybe the issue is that you have a knee jerk tendency to try and both sides any issue involving a brutal anti-western authoritarian regime. We actually read and understand your posts quite well. "Nuance" is good. You should try it sometime. I've said repeatedly here that I don't view the world in a "good guy vs bad guys" framework. You can if you want but I would describe myself as a moral relativist. There is the capability to do good and evil in every human-being. And on the geopolitical level, every nation is capable of doing good and evil things. Not everything that Israel does is morally right. Not everything that Iran does is morally wrong. Both countries have done good and evil things to each other over the last few decades. As for recent events, no matter what you think of Iran, bombing an embassy is dead wrong and a clear escalation by Israel. Rather than give kneejerk responses to complex news events, I try to understand why things happen and add context on topics where I have some insights to share. Not everyone appreciates that and some people misunderstand my intent. Short of wanting to bait Iran into total war, I can't imagine any rational reasons why Israel bombed Iran's embassy. It has zero impact on Iran's support for Hezbollah and other groups in the Middle East. 1. More condescension and arrogance 2. This may come as a shock to you but most of us don't view a lack of moral clarity as a positive attribute 3. I have never once said that everything Israel does is morally right. 4. If there is anyone here with knee-jerk reactions to events, especially those involving Israel, it is you. 5. I can think of one very obvious and rational reason why Israel took out these Iranian Quds generals and officers. They were coordinating Hezbollah missile attacks into the northern part of Israel. 6. You keep saying that everyone misunderstands your intent. Again, maybe it's not us. Maybe we actually understand your intent perfectly well. Most of us are actually pretty smart people. Or, maybe you have a problem communicating clearly.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 10, 2024 15:16:06 GMT -5
2. This may come as a shock to you but most of us don't view a lack of moral clarity as a positive attribute Neither do I. The difference between us is, you're morally clear on the Russia-Ukraine war but morally ambiguous on Israel's conduct in Gaza while I'm the opposite. We can respectfully disagree on our reasons for being 'selective' when it comes to moral clarity on each individual conflict. 3. I have never once said that everything Israel does is morally right. But you don't criticize them even when they get caught telling blatant lies, or do things that are obvious war crimes, or obvious violations of international law. So I honestly don't know what to make of how you feel about Israel. 5. I can think of one very obvious and rational reason why Israel took out these Iranian Quds generals and officers. They were coordinating Hezbollah missile attacks into the northern part of Israel. If they killed the Iranian generals while they were driving in a car or visiting a military facility, I wouldn't object to Israel's strike. Again, Israel has routinely bombed Syria for years. They've killed hundreds of IRGC guys in Syria. The fact that they attacked a diplomatic facility in Syria this time is why it's an escalation. You can't bring yourself to acknowledge that the Vienna Convention applies even to countries we don't like. Hence why I question whether you really care about international law. It applies to everyone, not just friendly countries. And we all know this strike won't stop Iran from supporting Hezbollah. At worst it will lead to a regional war which could potentially involve the US depending on how (or if) Iran responds. 6. You keep saying that everyone misunderstands your intent. Again, maybe it's not us. Maybe we actually understand your intent perfectly well. Most of us are actually pretty smart people. Or, maybe you have a problem communicating clearly.I don't doubt that you're smart but you don't know me personally. Instead of making assumptions, try to engage the points I make on the merits. You're smart enough not to get so emotional when faced with opinions that are different from your own. Act like it.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 10, 2024 16:11:09 GMT -5
3. I have never once said that everything Israel does is morally right. But you don't criticize them even when they get caught telling blatant lies, or do things that are obvious war crimes, or obvious violations of international law. So I honestly don't know what to make of how you feel about Israel. Well, then that's because you haven't been reading my posts going back months, if not years. I think Bibi has to go I support either a two state solution or a three state solution (to me having a state of Palestine broken up into two different parts that are not contiguous is not a recipe for success, so perhaps it becomes Israel, Palestine, Gaza or maybe Gaza becomes an international protectorate) Finally, I think that Western governments should cough up some dough to compensate West Bank settlers for giving up their homes in the West Bank in order to make a Palestinian state their more viable. 6. You keep saying that everyone misunderstands your intent. Again, maybe it's not us. Maybe we actually understand your intent perfectly well. Most of us are actually pretty smart people. Or, maybe you have a problem communicating clearly.You're smart enough not to get so emotional when faced with opinions that are different from your own. Act like it. This coming from the person who's been having a multi month hissy fit. You're supposed to be a moderator. Act like it.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 10, 2024 16:33:15 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Apr 10, 2024 16:39:59 GMT -5
Per International Law, both the Ukrainians and the Palestinians have the Right to resist occupation: In international law, the right to resist is closely related to the principle of self-determination.[9] It is widely recognized that a right to self-determination arises in situations of colonial domination, foreign occupation, and racist regimes that deny a segment of the population political participation. According to international law, states may not use force against the lawful exercise of self-determination, while those seeking self-determination may use military force if there is no other way to achieve their goals.[30] Fayez Sayegh derives a right to resist from the Charter of the United Nations' recognition of an inherent right of national self-defense in the face of aggression.[31] Based on the charter, the 1970 United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2625 explicitly endorsed a right to resist "subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation".[32] Based on this, many scholars argue that the right to resist exists in customary international law where self-determination is at issue.[33]
Some scholars have argued that a right to resist oppression is implicit in the International Bill of Human Rights. The preamble to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states "whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law".[34] The drafters of the declaration, however, intended to exclude the right to resist.[35] The European and Inter-American regional human rights treaties do not include a right to resist.[36]----------------------- They're justified in using everything from rocks to rocket launchers to resist Israel's occupation of the West Bank. They have the right to exist and they have the right to self-determination.
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Post by vosa on Apr 11, 2024 9:49:23 GMT -5
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 11, 2024 10:15:19 GMT -5
Looking at the state of Gaza, or what's left of it, I suspect that Israel may have killed many of them, in its relentless pursuit to erase Gaza and it's people.
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Post by vosa on Apr 11, 2024 10:40:31 GMT -5
Looking at the state of Gaza, or what's left of it, I suspect that Israel may have killed many of them, in its relentless pursuit to erase Gaza and it's people. Israel wants to erase Hamas. If the wanted to erase Gaza and it's people they would have stated a long time ago.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 11:06:44 GMT -5
Looking at the state of Gaza, or what's left of it, I suspect that Israel may have killed many of them, in its relentless pursuit to erase Gaza and it's people. Israel wants to erase Hamas. If the wanted to erase Gaza and it's people they would have stated a long time ago. They started in 2005 Genocide doesn't happen overnight. It's a process that typically begins with de-humanizing a group of people...
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 11, 2024 11:08:40 GMT -5
Looking at the state of Gaza, or what's left of it, I suspect that Israel may have killed many of them, in its relentless pursuit to erase Gaza and it's people. Israel wants to erase Hamas. If the wanted to erase Gaza and it's people they would have stated a long time ago. Clearly, you have not been following the carnage or seen any images of what is left of Gaza, otherwise you would not have made that stupid statement.
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 11, 2024 11:14:38 GMT -5
Israel wants to erase Hamas. If the wanted to erase Gaza and it's people they would have stated a long time ago.They started in 2005 Genocide doesn't happen overnight. It's a process that typically begins with de-humanizing a group of people... In its infancy, it began the day after the state of Israel was recognised. What was allocated to the Zionists was never going to be enough, and never will be enough.
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