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Post by ishmael on Apr 11, 2024 11:15:09 GMT -5
2. This may come as a shock to you but most of us don't view a lack of moral clarity as a positive attribute Neither do I. The difference between us is, you're morally clear on the Russia-Ukraine war but morally ambiguous on Israel's conduct in Gaza while I'm the opposite. We can respectfully disagree on our reasons for being 'selective' when it comes to moral clarity on each individual conflict. 3. I have never once said that everything Israel does is morally right. But you don't criticize them even when they get caught telling blatant lies, or do things that are obvious war crimes, or obvious violations of international law. So I honestly don't know what to make of how you feel about Israel. 5. I can think of one very obvious and rational reason why Israel took out these Iranian Quds generals and officers. They were coordinating Hezbollah missile attacks into the northern part of Israel. If they killed the Iranian generals while they were driving in a car or visiting a military facility, I wouldn't object to Israel's strike. Again, Israel has routinely bombed Syria for years. They've killed hundreds of IRGC guys in Syria. The fact that they attacked a diplomatic facility in Syria this time is why it's an escalation. You can't bring yourself to acknowledge that the Vienna Convention applies even to countries we don't like. Hence why I question whether you really care about international law. It applies to everyone, not just friendly countries. And we all know this strike won't stop Iran from supporting Hezbollah. At worst it will lead to a regional war which could potentially involve the US depending on how (or if) Iran responds. 6. You keep saying that everyone misunderstands your intent. Again, maybe it's not us. Maybe we actually understand your intent perfectly well. Most of us are actually pretty smart people. Or, maybe you have a problem communicating clearly.I don't doubt that you're smart but you don't know me personally. Instead of making assumptions, try to engage the points I make on the merits. You're smart enough not to get so emotional when faced with opinions that are different from your own. Act like it. While Iran signed the Vienna Convention, Iran has never ratified it. The protectiins of the Vienna Convention do not apply to Iran.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 11:19:51 GMT -5
Neither do I. The difference between us is, you're morally clear on the Russia-Ukraine war but morally ambiguous on Israel's conduct in Gaza while I'm the opposite. We can respectfully disagree on our reasons for being 'selective' when it comes to moral clarity on each individual conflict. But you don't criticize them even when they get caught telling blatant lies, or do things that are obvious war crimes, or obvious violations of international law. So I honestly don't know what to make of how you feel about Israel. If they killed the Iranian generals while they were driving in a car or visiting a military facility, I wouldn't object to Israel's strike. Again, Israel has routinely bombed Syria for years. They've killed hundreds of IRGC guys in Syria. The fact that they attacked a diplomatic facility in Syria this time is why it's an escalation. You can't bring yourself to acknowledge that the Vienna Convention applies even to countries we don't like. Hence why I question whether you really care about international law. It applies to everyone, not just friendly countries. And we all know this strike won't stop Iran from supporting Hezbollah. At worst it will lead to a regional war which could potentially involve the US depending on how (or if) Iran responds. I don't doubt that you're smart but you don't know me personally. Instead of making assumptions, try to engage the points I make on the merits. You're smart enough not to get so emotional when faced with opinions that are different from your own. Act like it. While Iran signed the Vienna Convention, Iran has never ratified it. The protectiins of the Vienna Convention do not apply to Iran.Unsurprisingly, Israel, which doesn't acknowledge international laws most of the time, is not a signatory to the Vienna Convention en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Vienna_Convention_on_the_Law_of_TreatiesBy your logic, does that mean Israel's diplomats are fair game for Iranian retaliation?
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Post by ishmael on Apr 11, 2024 11:23:36 GMT -5
While Iran signed the Vienna Convention, Iran has never ratified it. The protectiins of the Vienna Convention do not apply to Iran. Unsurprisingly, Israel, which doesn't acknowledge international laws most of the time, is not a signatory to the Vienna Convention en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Vienna_Convention_on_the_Law_of_TreatiesBy your logic, does that mean Israel's diplomats are fair game for Iranian retaliation? It means they are not covered by the Vienna Convention, nothing more, nothing less.
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Post by vosa on Apr 11, 2024 11:28:13 GMT -5
Israel wants to erase Hamas. If the wanted to erase Gaza and it's people they would have stated a long time ago.They started in 2005 Genocide doesn't happen overnight. It's a process that typically begins with de-humanizing a group of people... "In 2005, 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip were unilaterally dismantled and Israeli settlers and army evacuated from inside the Gaza Strip, redeploying its military along the border. Map of the Gaza Strip in May 2005, a few months prior to the Israeli withdrawal.""In 2007, after Hamas seized control of the Gaza Strip, Israel imposed an indefinite blockade of Gaza that is ongoing to present day, on the grounds that Fatah and Palestinian Authority forces had fled the Strip and were no longer able to provide security on the Palestinian side.""In 2014, Israel invaded Gaza in a major war that resulted in the deaths of 73 Israelis (mostly soldiers) and 2,251 Palestinians (mostly civilians). The invasion resulted in "unprecedented" destruction, damaging 25% of homes in Gaza city and 70% of homes in Beit Hanoun."So here’s what you want me to believe. 1. Israel has always had it in for the Palestinians. 2. In 2005, in their quest to destroy the Palestinians they withdrew from Gaza. 3. In 2007, in their quest to destroy the Palestinians they established a blockade but killed no Palestinians. 4. In 2014 they invaded the Gaza strip. 5. After 2014 in their quest to destroy the Palestinians they took a 9 years break and only resumed their attack on the Palestinians after Hamas was rude to 1,400 Israelis. Sorry pal, I’m not buying what you’re selling.
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Post by vosa on Apr 11, 2024 11:31:48 GMT -5
They started in 2005 Genocide doesn't happen overnight. It's a process that typically begins with de-humanizing a group of people... In its infancy, it began the day after the state of Israel was recognised. What was allocated to the Zionists was never going to be enough, and never will be enough. Then can you explain why Israel, a vastly superior military force, has taken 76 years to wipe out the Palestinians?
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 11:37:46 GMT -5
In its infancy, it began the day after the state of Israel was recognised. What was allocated to the Zionists was never going to be enough, and never will be enough. Then can you explain why Israel, a vastly superior military force, has taken 76 years to wipe out the Palestinians? Hitler with his superior military failed to kill all the Jews in Europe. By Vosa’s logic, the Holocaust wasn’t a genocide.
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Post by vosa on Apr 11, 2024 11:49:15 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 11:53:41 GMT -5
Not playing the "Nazi card". Just trying to help you understand how illogical your point about genocide was. Here's a non-Nazi example: Do you also deny that there was an Armenian genocide because Turkey failed to kill all Armenians?
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 11, 2024 12:10:25 GMT -5
And Turkey refuses to admit it was a genocide. Funny how history repeats itself.
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Post by vosa on Apr 11, 2024 12:21:02 GMT -5
Not playing the "Nazi card". Just trying to help you understand how illogical your point about genocide was. Here's a non-Nazi example: Do you also deny that there was an Armenian genocide because Turkey failed to kill all Armenians? You mention Hitler and the Holocaust and then claim you're not playing the "Nazi card". I bet you learned that kind of gaslighting from Alejandro "The Border Is Secure" Mayorkas. And if you weren't playing the Nazi card why would you say "Here's a non-Nazi example:". Why would you need a non-Nazi example if in your first example you were "Not playing the "Nazi card". The Armenian genocide comparison is a false comparison because the Armenians did not stage a terrorist attack on the Turks. And the intent of the Turks was to wipe out the Armenians. It is the intent of the Israelis to wipe out Hamas, not the Palestinian people. The U.S. government estimates the total Palestinian population at 3 million in the West Bank and 2 million in the Gaza Strip. If Israel was intent on conducting a Palestinians genocide how come they aren't bombing the Palestinians in the West Bank where there are 1M more of them than in the Gaza Strip? Everything you and your fellow travelers have posted in support of your genocide claims is based on half-truth and/or your feelings that "well if Palestinians are dying it must be genocide". History and the facts don't support that claim.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 12:32:41 GMT -5
Not playing the "Nazi card". Just trying to help you understand how illogical your point about genocide was. Here's a non-Nazi example: Do you also deny that there was an Armenian genocide because Turkey failed to kill all Armenians? You mention Hitler and the Holocaust and then claim you're not playing the "Nazi card". I bet you learned that kind of gaslighting from Alejandro "The Border Is Secure" Mayorkas. And if you weren't playing the Nazi card why would you say "Here's a non-Nazi example:". Why would you need a non-Nazi example if in your first example you were "Not playing the "Nazi card". The Armenian genocide comparison is a false comparison because the Armenians did not stage a terrorist attack on the Turks.
And the intent of the Turks was to wipe out the Armenians. It is the intent of the Israelis to wipe out Hamas, not the Palestinian people. The U.S. government estimates the total Palestinian population at 3 million in the West Bank and 2 million in the Gaza Strip. If Israel was intent on conducting a Palestinians genocide how come they aren't bombing the Palestinians in the West Bank where there are 1M more of them than in the Gaza Strip? Everything you and your fellow travelers have posted in support of your genocide claims is based on half-truth and/or your feelings that "well if Palestinians are dying it must be genocide". History and the facts don't support that claim. The Turks disagree. They say the Armenians provoked them. And there are other examples of genocides where there were provocations that preceded the genocide (ie Bosnia). So no, you can't use the Oct.7th attacks as an excuse for committing genocide.
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Post by vosa on Apr 11, 2024 12:58:46 GMT -5
You mention Hitler and the Holocaust and then claim you're not playing the "Nazi card". I bet you learned that kind of gaslighting from Alejandro "The Border Is Secure" Mayorkas. And if you weren't playing the Nazi card why would you say "Here's a non-Nazi example:". Why would you need a non-Nazi example if in your first example you were "Not playing the "Nazi card". The Armenian genocide comparison is a false comparison because the Armenians did not stage a terrorist attack on the Turks.
And the intent of the Turks was to wipe out the Armenians. It is the intent of the Israelis to wipe out Hamas, not the Palestinian people. The U.S. government estimates the total Palestinian population at 3 million in the West Bank and 2 million in the Gaza Strip. If Israel was intent on conducting a Palestinians genocide how come they aren't bombing the Palestinians in the West Bank where there are 1M more of them than in the Gaza Strip? Everything you and your fellow travelers have posted in support of your genocide claims is based on half-truth and/or your feelings that "well if Palestinians are dying it must be genocide". History and the facts don't support that claim. The Turks disagree. They say the Armenians provoked them. And there are other examples of genocides where there were provocations that preceded the genocide (ie Bosnia). So no, you can't use the Oct.7th attacks as an excuse for committing genocide. And what were these provocations to which you refer?
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 11, 2024 14:30:48 GMT -5
In its infancy, it began the day after the state of Israel was recognised. What was allocated to the Zionists was never going to be enough, and never will be enough. Then can you explain why Israel, a vastly superior military force, has taken 76 years to wipe out the Palestinians? Another hyperbolic load of bollox question by Jerusalem Joe. One day, he'll ask an honest one.
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Post by zenwalk on Apr 11, 2024 14:38:29 GMT -5
Let's not forget our own genocide against the American Indian for that matter. visa seems to make a distinction between hate killing from a poisoning of the blood and something akin to wife beating where the other is "making them." Killing a people because of their identity is genocide no matter how hard you want to bend it.
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Post by vosa on Apr 11, 2024 14:42:36 GMT -5
Then can you explain why Israel, a vastly superior military force, has taken 76 years to wipe out the Palestinians? Another hyperbolic load of bollox question by Jerusalem Joe. One day, he'll ask an honest one. Any question you don't want to answer you label a dishonest question. That makes you dishonest and cowardly too.
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 11, 2024 15:06:23 GMT -5
Another hyperbolic load of bollox question by Jerusalem Joe. One day, he'll ask an honest one. Any question you don't want to answer you label a dishonest question. That makes you dishonest and cowardly too. Vosa, all you do is ask dishonest questions, in order to deflect from situations that you cant defend. Don't you do that 'coward' bollox on me, I haven't used that on you, yet.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 11, 2024 20:21:56 GMT -5
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Post by vosa on Apr 12, 2024 10:13:59 GMT -5
Any question you don't want to answer you label a dishonest question. That makes you dishonest and cowardly too. Vosa, all you do is ask dishonest questions, in order to deflect from situations that you cant defend. Don't you do that 'coward' bollox on me, I haven't used that on you, yet. Care to explain why the questions are dishonest? Try this one: If Israel has always wanted the genocide of the Palestinians why did they withdraw from Gaza in 2005?
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 12, 2024 12:07:04 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Apr 12, 2024 16:51:01 GMT -5
As much as Iran would be justified in retaliating against Israel, I'm glad they haven't done so (at the time of this post).
Hopefully, they're holding their fire. An attack on Israel would be a useful distraction for Netanyahu at a time when Israel is losing the PR war over Gaza.
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Post by vosa on Apr 13, 2024 10:50:50 GMT -5
Two days ago in response to his claim the Armenians provoked the Turks I asked Soulflower “And what were these provocations to which you refer?”
So far no answer.
I wonder why that is?
Also two days ago I asked WKDWZD “Then can you explain why Israel, a vastly superior military force, has taken 76 years to wipe out the Palestinians?”
So far no answer.
I wonder why that is?
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Post by soulflower on Apr 13, 2024 11:31:42 GMT -5
Two days ago in response to his claim the Armenians provoked the Turks I asked Soulflower “And what were these provocations to which you refer?” So far no answer. I wonder why that is? Also two days ago I asked WKDWZD “Then can you explain why Israel, a vastly superior military force, has taken 76 years to wipe out the Palestinians?” So far no answer. I wonder why that is? I was trying to get back on topic but since you insist: Turkish American explains how he was indoctrinated to believe myths about Turkish history and the whitewashing of the Armenian genocide. Very similar to the indoctrination that happens in Israel Scholars on Turkish history explain how the Ottomans viewed Armenians as a threat to their national security Armenian Genocide denial: Borrowing arguments used by the CUP to justify its actions, denial of the Armenian genocide rests on the assumption that the "relocation" of Armenians was a legitimate state action in response to a real or perceived Armenian uprising that threatened the existence of the empire during wartime. Deniers assert the CUP intended to resettle Armenians rather than kill them. They claim the death toll is exaggerated or attribute the deaths to other factors, such as a purported civil war, disease, bad weather, rogue local officials, or bands of Kurds and outlaws. Historian Ronald Grigor Suny summarizes the main argument as "there was no genocide, and the Armenians were to blame for it".[4]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide_denialLastly, states that commit genocide typically don’t acknowledge genocidal intent and they often make excuses for why mass violence or mass expulsions were necessary…
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Post by soulflower on Apr 13, 2024 11:35:40 GMT -5
Iran has seized a cargo ship linked to one of the wealthiest oligarchs in Israel. This may be part of their retaliation against Israel. Not clear at this point.
Israel is already suffering economic pain due to the Gaza situation so attacks on their international trade aren’t insignificant.
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Post by vosa on Apr 13, 2024 12:00:17 GMT -5
Two days ago in response to his claim the Armenians provoked the Turks I asked Soulflower “And what were these provocations to which you refer?” So far no answer. I wonder why that is? Also two days ago I asked WKDWZD “Then can you explain why Israel, a vastly superior military force, has taken 76 years to wipe out the Palestinians?” So far no answer. I wonder why that is? I was trying to get back on topic but since you insist:Turkish American explains how he was indoctrinated to believe myths about Turkish history and the whitewashing of the Armenian genocide. Very similar to the indoctrination that happens in Israel Scholars on Turkish history explain how the Ottomans viewed Armenians as a threat to their national security Armenian Genocide denial: Borrowing arguments used by the CUP to justify its actions, denial of the Armenian genocide rests on the assumption that the "relocation" of Armenians was a legitimate state action in response to a real or perceived Armenian uprising that threatened the existence of the empire during wartime. Deniers assert the CUP intended to resettle Armenians rather than kill them. They claim the death toll is exaggerated or attribute the deaths to other factors, such as a purported civil war, disease, bad weather, rogue local officials, or bands of Kurds and outlaws. Historian Ronald Grigor Suny summarizes the main argument as "there was no genocide, and the Armenians were to blame for it".[4]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide_denialLastly, states that commit genocide typically don’t acknowledge genocidal intent and they often make excuses for why mass violence or mass expulsions were necessary… You’re the one that brought up the Armenians so if the thread was taken off track you did it. I said your Armenian comparison was a false one. You said it was not because the Armenians provoked the Turks. Now you post a video from someone who says the Armenians did not provoke the Turks. May I suggest you have a meeting with yourself and figure out exactly where you stand on this issue.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 13, 2024 12:17:54 GMT -5
I was trying to get back on topic but since you insist:Turkish American explains how he was indoctrinated to believe myths about Turkish history and the whitewashing of the Armenian genocide. Very similar to the indoctrination that happens in Israel Scholars on Turkish history explain how the Ottomans viewed Armenians as a threat to their national security Armenian Genocide denial: Borrowing arguments used by the CUP to justify its actions, denial of the Armenian genocide rests on the assumption that the "relocation" of Armenians was a legitimate state action in response to a real or perceived Armenian uprising that threatened the existence of the empire during wartime. Deniers assert the CUP intended to resettle Armenians rather than kill them. They claim the death toll is exaggerated or attribute the deaths to other factors, such as a purported civil war, disease, bad weather, rogue local officials, or bands of Kurds and outlaws. Historian Ronald Grigor Suny summarizes the main argument as "there was no genocide, and the Armenians were to blame for it".[4]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide_denialLastly, states that commit genocide typically don’t acknowledge genocidal intent and they often make excuses for why mass violence or mass expulsions were necessary… You’re the one that brought up the Armenians so if the thread was taken off track you did it. I said your Armenian comparison was a false one. You said it was not because the Armenians provoked the Turks. Now you post a video from someone who says the Armenians did not provoke the Turks. May I suggest you have a meeting with yourself and figure out exactly where you stand on this issue. The history is contested (like most historical events) and I literally said that Turks will tell you that the Armenians provoked them. And my broader point was that provocations don’t justify acts of genocide. I’m not interested in continuing this discussion with you because no matter what I say, you will rationalize Israel’s barbarism..
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Post by vosa on Apr 13, 2024 12:38:07 GMT -5
You’re the one that brought up the Armenians so if the thread was taken off track you did it. I said your Armenian comparison was a false one. You said it was not because the Armenians provoked the Turks. Now you post a video from someone who says the Armenians did not provoke the Turks. May I suggest you have a meeting with yourself and figure out exactly where you stand on this issue. The history is contested (like most historical events) and I literally said that Turks will tell you that the Armenians provoked them. And my broader point was that provocations don’t justify acts of genocide. I’m not interested in continuing this discussion with you because no matter what I say, you will rationalize Israel’s barbarism..Gee, that's a shame because you were doing so well in defending your claim that Israel is engaged in genocide.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 13, 2024 16:48:37 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Apr 13, 2024 17:33:16 GMT -5
Iran announces that their retaliatory attack is over. A lot of noise but it doesn’t look or sound like they caused much damage in Israel.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 13, 2024 17:46:10 GMT -5
We now return to our regularly scheduled programming
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Post by guido2 on Apr 13, 2024 17:55:28 GMT -5
Iran announces that their retaliatory attack is over. A lot of noise but it doesn’t look or sound like they caused much damage in Israel. If not for the fact that atomic weapons including dirty bombs could become involved.................... I personally don't give a damn if they both blow themselves up. And I bet a majority of the US doesn't care either. Not businesses/corp..... people....voters. In fact, IMHO if not for the oil in that area, I seriously doubt that anyone would give a damn about the Middle east. This area has been under constant upheavial for 1000's of years. Every turbin head, religion, whatever has some beef from hundreds if not 1000's of years ago. These people are like my mother and her sister...... they could never just let go of some things.
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