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Post by vosa on Apr 8, 2024 13:41:53 GMT -5
Very interesting. One small problem. These guys were not posing as diplomats.That doesn't matter. For example, if a US general visits a US embassy or consulate in Ukraine, it doesn't make the diplomatic facilities legit military targets for Russia or Iran to bomb. Ignoring or violating international law isn't good for anyone. The US should be doing everything we can to strengthen international laws and norms. Isn't that what President Biden promised to do? I find it interesting that throughout this thread you have been repeatedly beating Israel over the head with international law and the Vienna Convention but never once have you mentioned either of those things as it relates to Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah or the Houthis. If you want to be objective about the Israel-Hamas War you've got a lot of work to do.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 13:51:07 GMT -5
That doesn't matter. For example, if a US general visits a US embassy or consulate in Ukraine, it doesn't make the diplomatic facilities legit military targets for Russia or Iran to bomb. Ignoring or violating international law isn't good for anyone. The US should be doing everything we can to strengthen international laws and norms. Isn't that what President Biden promised to do? I find it interesting that throughout this thread you have been repeatedly beating Israel over the head with international law and the Vienna Convention but never once have you mentioned either of those things as it relates to Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah or the Houthis. If you want to be objective about the Israel-Hamas War you've got a lot of work to do. Please elaborate on where and how Iran and Hezbollah are violating international law. I'm aware of Hezbollah's rocket attacks and shelling of northern Israel however, I don't know who attacked who first. I'm sure Hezbollah would say "Israel started it" while Israel would say "Hezbollah started it". I don't know when the hostilities began. All I know is that they have been attacking each other for years since the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah. As for the Houthis, I'll concede that their attacks on ships in the Red Sea are illegal. However, I agree with the intent, which is to disrupt trade with Israel as they're committing a potential genocide per the Hague courts. FWIW, the US violated international laws when we bombed Libya and Kosovo to stop potential genocides. So the precedent of using force to intervene to stop a genocide has some prior examples.
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Post by vosa on Apr 8, 2024 14:33:15 GMT -5
I find it interesting that throughout this thread you have been repeatedly beating Israel over the head with international law and the Vienna Convention but never once have you mentioned either of those things as it relates to Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah or the Houthis. If you want to be objective about the Israel-Hamas War you've got a lot of work to do. Please elaborate on where and how Iran and Hezbollah are violating international law. I'm aware of Hezbollah's rocket attacks and shelling of northern Israel however, I don't know who attacked who first. I'm sure Hezbollah would say "Israel started it" while Israel would say "Hezbollah started it". I don't know when the hostilities began. All I know is that they have been attacking each other for years since the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah. As for the Houthis, I'll concede that their attacks on ships in the Red Sea are illegal. However, I agree with the intent, which is to disrupt trade with Israel as they're committing a potential genocide per the Hague courts. FWIW, the US violated international laws when we bombed Libya and Kosovo to stop potential genocides. So the precedent of using force to intervene to stop a genocide has some prior examples. International law’s treatment of proxy war is puzzling to say the least: the law does contemplate situations where a state influences, controls, or directs the conduct of a non-state actor – as part of the law on state responsibility, when a proxy commits an “armed attack” at the onset of a conflict, or to determine the status of a state sponsor whose proxy is engaged in an armed conflict. But the word “proxy” is not uttered; and the rules set such stringent conditions that they find little to no application in practice. International law’s superficial, inconsistent, and theoretical treatment of proxy relationships raises questions as to the ability of this body of law to contend with future war. This chapter argues that international law has taken this problematic stand to protect the international world order, threatened by below-the-threshold warfare in its various guises: cyber war, covert actions, and proxy war. By turning a blind eye on proxy war, international law keeps the state of war, at least on paper, to a minimum – and protects, albeit artificially, a fundamental pillar of the post–World War II normative order. Seeking to avoid all-out war, international law has created dangerous conditions for proxy wars to flourish.So technically Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah are not violating international law. And apparently in your world if something is not illegal every thing is fine. No room for this.... Ethics are the principles that guide us to make a positive impact through our decisions and actions. Ethics play an important role not only in our personal lives but also in business. We are all encouraged to make ethical choices and apply ethics in all areas of our lives. I don't know what business you're in but I do know I don't want to be involved in it with you.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 15:01:49 GMT -5
So technically Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah are not violating international law. Why is Israel not included? Under what circumstances is it legal or ethical to bomb a consulate?
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Post by vosa on Apr 8, 2024 15:13:04 GMT -5
So technically Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah are not violating international law. Why is Israel not included? Under what circumstances is it legal or ethical to bomb a consulate? Ah, so now all of a sudden you're all about ethics. What are you going to try next, Robert's Rules of Order? OK, let's go with ethics in war...
Did you see # 3? Are you now going to tell me that the killing of these Iranian military leaders was not militarily necessary?
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 15:18:41 GMT -5
Why is Israel not included? Under what circumstances is it legal or ethical to bomb a consulate? Ah, so now all of a sudden you're all about ethics. What are you going to try next, Robert's Rules of Order? OK, let's go with ethics in war...
Did you see # 3? Are you now going to tell me that the killing of these Iranian military leaders was not militarily necessary? You kill one general, he's immediately replaced by another. The only thing it accomplishes is increasing tensions between Iran and Israel and putting Israeli AND US military and diplomatic personnel in the Middle East at greater risk for retaliatory attacks. What's the upside in killing another country's generals? I don't see what Israel gained strategically or politically by doing this strike.
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Post by vosa on Apr 8, 2024 15:40:23 GMT -5
Ah, so now all of a sudden you're all about ethics. What are you going to try next, Robert's Rules of Order? OK, let's go with ethics in war...
Did you see # 3? Are you now going to tell me that the killing of these Iranian military leaders was not militarily necessary?You kill one general, he's immediately replaced by another. The only thing it accomplishes is increasing tensions between Iran and Israel and putting Israeli AND US military and diplomatic personnel in the Middle East at greater risk for retaliatory attacks. What's the upside in killing another country's generals? I don't see what Israel gained strategically or politically by doing this strike. WOW! Really? You see no reason to kill the enemy's generals? What about the enemy's colonels and majors and captains and lieutenants and sergeants and corporals and privates? Hell, why kill any enemy soldiers at all. If one group of people doesn't kill another group that is trying to kill them then we'd have no war. Hallelujah, praise God Almighty. Soulflower has found the way to world peace!
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 15:48:13 GMT -5
You kill one general, he's immediately replaced by another. The only thing it accomplishes is increasing tensions between Iran and Israel and putting Israeli AND US military and diplomatic personnel in the Middle East at greater risk for retaliatory attacks. What's the upside in killing another country's generals? I don't see what Israel gained strategically or politically by doing this strike. WOW!
Really? You see no reason to kill the enemy's generals? In this case I don't see it as beneficial to Israel. Israel and Iran aren't directly engaged in a conventional war but killing an Iranian general is an act which could lead to full scale war between both countries. Is that a good thing for Israel? IMHO, a direct war with Iran would be bad thing for Israel, a tiny country in the Middle East. Strategically, why is it a good thing for Israel to provoke a full scale war with Iran?
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Post by vosa on Apr 8, 2024 16:28:23 GMT -5
WOW!
Really? You see no reason to kill the enemy's generals? In this case I don't see it as beneficial to Israel. Israel and Iran aren't directly engaged in a conventional war but killing an Iranian general is an act which could lead to full scale war between both countries. Is that a good thing for Israel? IMHO, a direct war with Iran would be bad thing for Israel, a tiny country in the Middle East. Strategically, why is it a good thing for Israel to provoke a full scale war with Iran? So let me see if I understand what you're saying. If someone is trying to kill me I should not defend myself because if I do so I might provoke the person that is trying to kill me. Is that right?
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 16:37:02 GMT -5
In this case I don't see it as beneficial to Israel. Israel and Iran aren't directly engaged in a conventional war but killing an Iranian general is an act which could lead to full scale war between both countries. Is that a good thing for Israel? IMHO, a direct war with Iran would be bad thing for Israel, a tiny country in the Middle East. Strategically, why is it a good thing for Israel to provoke a full scale war with Iran? So let me see if I understand what you're saying. If someone is trying to kill me I should not defend myself because if I do so I might provoke the person that is trying to kill me.Is that right? - Israel IS already defending themselves when they attack Hezbollah in Lebanon. We've established that Israel and Hezbollah (southern Lebanon) have been fighting on and off since 2006. - Iran hasn't directly attacked Israel ever. At worst, they recently bombed a Mossad outpost in Iraq and provide support to Hezbollah. But Iran hasn't directly struck Israel or targeted their diplomatic facilities. - Israel HAS committed acts terrorism inside Iran. They've done industrial sabotage and several assassinations of Iranian civilian scientists. Which leads to the question: Does Iran have the Right to defend themselves against Israel's aggression?
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 8, 2024 16:43:07 GMT -5
So let me see if I understand what you're saying. If someone is trying to kill me I should not defend myself because if I do so I might provoke the person that is trying to kill me.Is that right? - Israel IS already defending themselves when they attack Hezbollah in Lebanon. We've established that Israel and Hezbollah (southern Lebanon) have been fighting on and off since 2006. - Iran hasn't directly attacked Israel ever. At worst, they recently bombed a Mossad outpost in Iraq and provide support to Hezbollah. But Iran hasn't directly struck Israel or targeted their diplomatic facilities. - Israel HAS committed acts terrorism inside Iran. They've done industrial sabotage and several assassinations of Iranian civilian scientists. Which leads to the question: Does Iran have the Right to defend themselves against Israel's aggression? In parallel with Israel's targeting the Iranian Consulate in Damascus, technically, Iran has the same right to target the US embassy in Jerusalem.
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Post by vosa on Apr 8, 2024 16:52:11 GMT -5
So let me see if I understand what you're saying. If someone is trying to kill me I should not defend myself because if I do so I might provoke the person that is trying to kill me.Is that right? - Israel IS already defending themselves when they attack Hezbollah in Lebanon. We've established that Israel and Hezbollah (southern Lebanon) have been fighting on and off since 2006. - Iran hasn't directly attacked Israel ever. At worst, they recently bombed a Mossad outpost in Iraq and provide support to Hezbollah. But Iran hasn't directly struck Israel or targeted their diplomatic facilities. - Israel HAS committed acts terrorism inside Iran. They've done industrial sabotage and several assassinations of Iranian civilian scientists. Which leads to the question: Does Iran have the Right to defend themselves against Israel's aggression? OK, let's examine the implications of that statement. If I hire someone to kill you and your family and they partially succeed the law should not come after me. Right?
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 17:22:26 GMT -5
- Israel IS already defending themselves when they attack Hezbollah in Lebanon. We've established that Israel and Hezbollah (southern Lebanon) have been fighting on and off since 2006. - Iran hasn't directly attacked Israel ever. At worst, they recently bombed a Mossad outpost in Iraq and provide support to Hezbollah. But Iran hasn't directly struck Israel or targeted their diplomatic facilities. - Israel HAS committed acts terrorism inside Iran. They've done industrial sabotage and several assassinations of Iranian civilian scientists. Which leads to the question: Does Iran have the Right to defend themselves against Israel's aggression? OK, let's examine the implications of that statement. If I hire someone to kill you and your family and they partially succeed the law should not come after me.Right? That's not how things work in international relations. By your logic, Russia has the Right to attack US military and diplomatic personal due to our financial and military support for Ukraine. And a world where street justice or law of the jungle takes priority over the post-WWII international legal system, isn't a world that I want to live in. That's why I so strongly oppose attempts to weaken the United Nations, the Hague, and other international institutions.
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Post by vosa on Apr 8, 2024 17:53:32 GMT -5
OK, let's examine the implications of that statement. If I hire someone to kill you and your family and they partially succeed the law should not come after me.Right? That's not how things work in international relations. By your logic, Russia has the Right to attack US military and diplomatic personal due to our financial and military support for Ukraine. And a world where street justice or law of the jungle takes priority over the post-WWII international legal system, isn't a world that I want to live in. That's why I so strongly oppose attempts to weaken the United Nations, the Hague, and other international institutions. Wrong. Q: Did U.S. proxies attack Russia? A: No. Q: Did Iran proxies attack Israel? A: Yes.
See the difference?
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 20:43:17 GMT -5
That's not how things work in international relations. By your logic, Russia has the Right to attack US military and diplomatic personal due to our financial and military support for Ukraine. And a world where street justice or law of the jungle takes priority over the post-WWII international legal system, isn't a world that I want to live in. That's why I so strongly oppose attempts to weaken the United Nations, the Hague, and other international institutions. Wrong. Q: Did U.S. proxies attack Russia? A: No. (Correction) A: Yes. Ukraine is effectively a US/NATO proxy. They've gotten $200 billion in aid since 2022 from the US and our NATO allies and have been backed by NATO since 2015. You can argue that Ukraine has agency but so too does Hezbollah. They were created after Israel invaded Lebanon as a militia that opposed Israel's occupation. Today, Hezbollah is a political party in Lebanon's parliament but they still have a military wing.
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Post by vosa on Apr 8, 2024 21:03:39 GMT -5
Wrong. Q: Did U.S. proxies attack Russia? A: No. (Correction) A: Yes. Ukraine is effectively a US/NATO proxy. They've gotten $200 billion in aid since 2022 from the US and our NATO allies and have been backed by NATO since 2015. You can argue that Ukraine has agency but so too does Hezbollah. They were created after Israel invaded Lebanon as a militia that opposed Israel's occupation. Today, Hezbollah is a political party in Lebanon's parliament but they still have a military wing. Did Ukraine attack Russia?
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Post by soulflower on Apr 8, 2024 21:12:37 GMT -5
(Correction) A: Yes. Ukraine is effectively a US/NATO proxy. They've gotten $200 billion in aid since 2022 from the US and our NATO allies and have been backed by NATO since 2015. You can argue that Ukraine has agency but so too does Hezbollah. They were created after Israel invaded Lebanon as a militia that opposed Israel's occupation. Today, Hezbollah is a political party in Lebanon's parliament but they still have a military wing. Did Ukraine attack Russia? You're adding conditions but yes, Ukraine has been attacking Russia since Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Ukraine was not attacking targets in Russia before 2022. I'm not making a moral judgement. Just noting the facts. Did Hezbollah exist before Israel invaded Lebanon? (in the 1980s)
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 8, 2024 21:34:58 GMT -5
In this case I don't see it as beneficial to Israel. Israel and Iran aren't directly engaged in a conventional war but killing an Iranian general is an act which could lead to full scale war between both countries. Is that a good thing for Israel? IMHO, a direct war with Iran would be bad thing for Israel, a tiny country in the Middle East. Strategically, why is it a good thing for Israel to provoke a full scale war with Iran? So let me see if I understand what you're saying. If someone is trying to kill me I should not defend myself because if I do so I might provoke the person that is trying to kill me. Is that right? That would be escalation
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Post by vosa on Apr 9, 2024 7:58:44 GMT -5
Did Ukraine attack Russia? You're adding conditions but yes, Ukraine has been attacking Russia since Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Ukraine was not attacking targets in Russia before 2022. I'm not making a moral judgement. Just noting the facts. Did Hezbollah exist before Israel invaded Lebanon? (in the 1980s) Now you're being disingenuous. Ukraine didn't attack Russia until after Russia attacked Ukraine. Your analogy that the U.S. is Iran, Russia is Israel and Ukraine is Hamas falls apart for the very reason that Hamas attacked Israel first (I hope that makes it clear to you) but Ukraine did not Attack Russia first (I hope that also makes it clear to you).
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Post by vosa on Apr 9, 2024 8:02:48 GMT -5
So let me see if I understand what you're saying. If someone is trying to kill me I should not defend myself because if I do so I might provoke the person that is trying to kill me. Is that right? That would be escalation Dupe.
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Post by vosa on Apr 9, 2024 8:04:19 GMT -5
Escalation is very uplifting.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 9, 2024 8:08:11 GMT -5
Iran so far has not retaliated.
Sounds like they've decided not to be baited by Israel's barbaric behavior into responding irrationally.
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 9, 2024 9:38:27 GMT -5
Escalation is very uplifting.
Of course it can also be a downer.
It's also wrong, on many different levels.
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Post by vosa on Apr 9, 2024 9:40:16 GMT -5
Escalation is very uplifting. Of course it can also be a downer.
It's also wrong, on many different levels. Same thing with elevator music.
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 9, 2024 9:47:41 GMT -5
It's also wrong, on many different levels. Same thing with elevator music. And a malodorous fart.
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summer23
Full Member
There is no path to peace. Peace IS the path.
Posts: 1,630
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Post by summer23 on Apr 9, 2024 9:52:44 GMT -5
I find it interesting that throughout this thread you have been repeatedly beating Israel over the head with international law and the Vienna Convention but never once have you mentioned either of those things as it relates to Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah or the Houthis. If you want to be objective about the Israel-Hamas War you've got a lot of work to do. Please elaborate on where and how Iran and Hezbollah are violating international law. I'm aware of Hezbollah's rocket attacks and shelling of northern Israel however, I don't know who attacked who first. I'm sure Hezbollah would say "Israel started it" while Israel would say "Hezbollah started it". I don't know when the hostilities began. All I know is that they have been attacking each other for years since the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah. As for the Houthis, I'll concede that their attacks on ships in the Red Sea are illegal. However, I agree with the intent, which is to disrupt trade with Israel as they're committing a potential genocide per the Hague courts. FWIW, the US violated international laws when we bombed Libya and Kosovo to stop potential genocides. So the precedent of using force to intervene to stop a genocide has some prior examples. You were okay with Houthis attacks in the Red Sea long before now. baltimoresunreunited.freeforums.net/thread/14277/yemen-red-cargo-ship-attacks
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 9, 2024 10:54:38 GMT -5
Iran so far has not retaliated. Sounds like they've decided not to be baited by Israel's barbaric behavior into responding irrationally. Yes, because the Iranian regime has always been a paragon of virtue, harmony, and human rights
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 9, 2024 10:55:31 GMT -5
Please elaborate on where and how Iran and Hezbollah are violating international law. I'm aware of Hezbollah's rocket attacks and shelling of northern Israel however, I don't know who attacked who first. I'm sure Hezbollah would say "Israel started it" while Israel would say "Hezbollah started it". I don't know when the hostilities began. All I know is that they have been attacking each other for years since the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah. As for the Houthis, I'll concede that their attacks on ships in the Red Sea are illegal. However, I agree with the intent, which is to disrupt trade with Israel as they're committing a potential genocide per the Hague courts. FWIW, the US violated international laws when we bombed Libya and Kosovo to stop potential genocides. So the precedent of using force to intervene to stop a genocide has some prior examples. You were okay with Houthis attacks in the Red Sea long before now. baltimoresunreunited.freeforums.net/thread/14277/yemen-red-cargo-ship-attacks He actually celebrated them and then after the first innocent mariners got killed he got real quiet.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 9, 2024 11:01:41 GMT -5
You can argue that Ukraine has agency but so too does Hezbollah. They were created after Israel invaded Lebanon as a militia that opposed Israel's occupation. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization organized and trained by Iran's Revolutionary Guards and the destruction of the sovereign state of Israel has always been one of its primary goals. Ukraine is a sovereign nation with a history going back to the ninth century Again, it is just impossible to take you seriously anymore.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 9, 2024 11:11:56 GMT -5
Please elaborate on where and how Iran and Hezbollah are violating international law. I'm aware of Hezbollah's rocket attacks and shelling of northern Israel however, I don't know who attacked who first. I'm sure Hezbollah would say "Israel started it" while Israel would say "Hezbollah started it". I don't know when the hostilities began. All I know is that they have been attacking each other for years since the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah. As for the Houthis, I'll concede that their attacks on ships in the Red Sea are illegal. However, I agree with the intent, which is to disrupt trade with Israel as they're committing a potential genocide per the Hague courts. FWIW, the US violated international laws when we bombed Libya and Kosovo to stop potential genocides. So the precedent of using force to intervene to stop a genocide has some prior examples. You were okay with Houthis attacks in the Red Sea long before now. baltimoresunreunited.freeforums.net/thread/14277/yemen-red-cargo-ship-attacks My post was clear. Not sure what your point is.
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