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Post by Evil Yoda on Apr 21, 2024 11:04:52 GMT -5
It is important to oppose autocrats like Putin, Xi, and Trump. Democracy relies on this.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 21, 2024 11:12:43 GMT -5
It is important to oppose autocrats like Putin, Xi, and Trump. Democracy relies on this. Why only them and not autocrats like the President of Egypt? Or The Saudis? Or Netanyahu? The Cold War is over. It effectively doesn't matter to us how other countries govern themselves. What matters are the facts that our Rights are being eroded by Congress and that political corruption in this country is basically legal now. Those are the real threats to our democracy. Trump is a symptom, not the root cause of our dysfunctional and corrupt system. He could disappear from the political scene tomorrow and we'll still be stuck with the same problems.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 21, 2024 11:16:28 GMT -5
At best, the aid Congress approved will buy Ukraine some time but it’s extremely naive to think it fundamentally will change “everything” for Ukraine. They still have men fleeing the country to avoid the draft and they still haven’t proven themselves capable of major ground offensives against Russia’s post-Kherson 2022 defensive lines. Ukraine alone can’t defeat Russia in a ground war and no amount of financial or military assistance changes that calculus… Nothing like doubling down after you ended up with egg on your face yet again There's no egg on my face. The Military Industrial Complex always wins (2/3's of the aid for Ukraine is going to Defense Contractors btw) so I never doubted that Congress would eventually come around to approving aid for Ukraine (or Israel). What's amusing is how you still haven't' acknowledged that Ukraine's offensive last summer failed miserably after last year's huge aid packages. What happened to all the Leopard tanks or the Storm Shadow missiles? Weren't those supposed to be game changers? What's the next miracle weapon? F-16s?
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 21, 2024 12:09:55 GMT -5
Glad to see the Russian stooges in Congress getting their asses handed to them.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Apr 21, 2024 12:21:38 GMT -5
Why only them and not autocrats like the President of Egypt? Or The Saudis? Or Netanyahu? The individuals you cite do not have global ambitions. Putin, Xi and Trump all want to replace democracy with something they like better.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 21, 2024 13:03:08 GMT -5
There's no egg on my face. This one didn't age well Harsh truth: If Zelensky is no longer a good pitch man for financial aid for Ukraine, his days are numbered as Ukraine's President.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 21, 2024 13:24:36 GMT -5
Glad to see the Russian stooges in Congress getting their asses handed to them. If you're skeptical about your tax dollars funding perpetual and unwinnable wars, you're a "Russian stooge".
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Post by soulflower on Apr 21, 2024 13:26:08 GMT -5
There's no egg on my face. This one didn't age well Harsh truth: If Zelensky is no longer a good pitch man for financial aid for Ukraine, his days are numbered as Ukraine's President. Zelensky didn't break the gridlock in Congress. The 'National Security State' did that. Zelensky got the cold shoulder from Republicans in Congress, including Johnson, the last time he visited the US. Who knows what they told Johnson to get him to flip-flop? Either way, each year it's going to get harder to push through these major aid packages. And it's naive to assume we won't be having this debate again next year if not before the end of this year...
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Post by soulflower on Apr 21, 2024 13:31:16 GMT -5
Why only them and not autocrats like the President of Egypt? Or The Saudis? Or Netanyahu? The individuals you cite do not have global ambitions. Putin, Xi and Trump all want to replace democracy with something they like better. Link? Trump, Putin, and Xi don't even share the same political ideologies. This may come as news to you but we won the Cold War. Both China and Russia are capitalist countries. China just practices a form of State capitalism and is "communist" in name only. There's literally no evidence that either China or Russia want to impose their political views on us. In contrast, they don't like our government and the CIA/State Dept because we try to impose our values onto them and have said as much. US government funded groups like the National Endowment for Democracy do what the CIA used to do in terms of meddling in the politics of other countries. Lastly, Trump has no political ideology or principles. He only wants to win election and empower himself. Here he was in 2022 expressing anger about Russia invading Ukraine
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Post by zenwalk on Apr 21, 2024 13:59:07 GMT -5
The individuals you cite do not have global ambitions. Putin, Xi and Trump all want to replace democracy with something they like better.Link? Trump, Putin, and Xi don't even share the same political ideologies. This may come as news to you but we won the Cold War. Both China and Russia are capitalist countries. China just practices a form of State capitalism and is "communist" in name only. There's literally no evidence that either China or Russia want to impose their political views on us. In contrast, they don't like our government and the CIA/State Dept because we try to impose our values onto them and have said as much. US government funded groups like the National Endowment for Democracy do what the CIA used to do in terms of meddling in the politics of other countries. Lastly, Trump has no political ideology or principles. He only wants to win election and empower himself. Here he was in 2022 expressing anger about Russia invading Ukraine Autocrats are not about ideology. All dictatorships begin with a cadre of people wanting control by subverting the guard rail institutions and creating a fake government. Foreign policy has to be muscular. We may not like this fact but it is a fact. We can't unilaterally decide to withdraw our positions in the world or we will wither into irrelevance until our supply lines are threatened when of course it will be too late. I don't care what trump said on one day in 2022. It doesn't mitigate years of his cozying up to the most brutal thugs in the world. Finally, we didn't win the Cold War by retreating.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 21, 2024 14:06:32 GMT -5
Link? Trump, Putin, and Xi don't even share the same political ideologies. This may come as news to you but we won the Cold War. Both China and Russia are capitalist countries. China just practices a form of State capitalism and is "communist" in name only. There's literally no evidence that either China or Russia want to impose their political views on us. In contrast, they don't like our government and the CIA/State Dept because we try to impose our values onto them and have said as much. US government funded groups like the National Endowment for Democracy do what the CIA used to do in terms of meddling in the politics of other countries. Lastly, Trump has no political ideology or principles. He only wants to win election and empower himself. Here he was in 2022 expressing anger about Russia invading Ukraine [] Autocrats are not about ideology. All dictatorships begin with a cadre of people wanting control by subverting the guard rail institutions and creating a fake government. Foreign policy has to be muscular. We may not like this fact but it is a fact. We can't unilaterally decide to withdraw our positions in the world or we will wither into irrelevance until our supply lines are threatened when of course it will be too late. I don't care what trump said on one day in 2022. It doesn't mitigate years of his cozying up to the most brutal thugs in the world. Finally, we didn't win the Cold War by retreating. With all due respect, to hear that coming from you proves that the neocons who got us into the Iraq war have won. Hard disagree on the idea that we must perpetually be in a Cold War-like mentality about foreign affairs. Autocracy will always exist in some form or fashion. It’s impossible to create some sort of global utopia where every country is a democracy. And just because a country is democratic doesn’t mean they will elect leaders that we like. See Hungary, India, and Israel for examples. I prefer democracy over other forms of government but we can’t impose democracy on other countries via the CIA or regime change wars. That simply doesn’t work and it’s why we’ve lost almost every war that the US has been involved with since Vietnam…
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Post by zenwalk on Apr 21, 2024 14:19:04 GMT -5
Autocrats are not about ideology. All dictatorships begin with a cadre of people wanting control by subverting the guard rail institutions and creating a fake government. Foreign policy has to be muscular. We may not like this fact but it is a fact. We can't unilaterally decide to withdraw our positions in the world or we will wither into irrelevance until our supply lines are threatened when of course it will be too late. I don't care what trump said on one day in 2022. It doesn't mitigate years of his cozying up to the most brutal thugs in the world. Finally, we didn't win the Cold War by retreating. With all due respect, to hear that coming from you proves that the neocons who got us into the Iraq war have won. Hard disagree on the idea that we must perpetually be in a Cold War-like mentality about foreign affairs. Autocracy will always exist in some form or fashion. It’s impossible to create some sort of global utopia where every country is a democracy. And just because a country is democratic doesn’t mean they will elect leaders that we like. See Hungary, India, and Israel for examples. I prefer democracy over other forms of government but we can’t impose democracy on other countries via the CIA or regime change wars. That simply doesn’t work and it’s why we’ve lost almost every war that the US has been involved with since Vietnam… The neocon protocols were not in our interest. I said it had to be muscular, not stupid. The problem as I see it is that the Ukraine and Russia war is a noble war and we haven't had a single one of those since I've been alive. Wars have become about securing resources for corporate interests. Catch 22 come true. Who we favor and the reasons for the favor will always be complicated. If some puny country like Hungary decides to stick its nose into our relationships then it should be swatted in a way that will smart. Otherwise I agree with you that no active measures should be taken. Wars shouldn't be about satisfying sectors of a peacetime economy. We will not be able to exorcise evil from the world and that is the reason we have to have a degree of strength necessary to hold back the encroachment of these bad actors.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 21, 2024 14:34:37 GMT -5
The writer, co-winner of the 2022 Nobel Prize for Peace, heads the Center for Civil Liberties in Kyiv and is on the board of the Institute for War & Peace Reporting
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Post by soulflower on Apr 21, 2024 14:35:23 GMT -5
With all due respect, to hear that coming from you proves that the neocons who got us into the Iraq war have won. Hard disagree on the idea that we must perpetually be in a Cold War-like mentality about foreign affairs. Autocracy will always exist in some form or fashion. It’s impossible to create some sort of global utopia where every country is a democracy. And just because a country is democratic doesn’t mean they will elect leaders that we like. See Hungary, India, and Israel for examples. I prefer democracy over other forms of government but we can’t impose democracy on other countries via the CIA or regime change wars. That simply doesn’t work and it’s why we’ve lost almost every war that the US has been involved with since Vietnam… The neocon protocols were not in our interest. I said it had to be muscular, not stupid. The problem is that we’re dealing with humans, not machines, who have made one mistake after another with regards to foreign policies since the Iraq war. A rethinking of the way America engages the rest of the world never really happened after Iraq. People seem to think doing the same things over and over will lead to positive results eventually despite the long trail of failed policies… The problem as I see it is that the Ukraine and Russia war is a noble war and we haven't had a single one of those since I've been alive. Wars have become about securing resources for corporate interests. Catch 22 come true. The Russia-Ukraine war was totally predictable and avoidable. American diplomats warned for years that pushing Ukraine towards NATO membership would lead to Russia becoming more militaristic and anti-Western. Now that the diplomats who warned us about what’s happening in Russia today have been proven correct, people still are doubling down on stupid policies. The Russians view Ukrainians as their brothers and will never accept them joining NATO. Henry Kissinger, who I despised, was right about that as well as the current CIA director, William Burns. Our policies in Ukraine will never succeed so long as they’re detached from reality…
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 21, 2024 14:37:29 GMT -5
Autocrats are not about ideology. All dictatorships begin with a cadre of people wanting control by subverting the guard rail institutions and creating a fake government. Foreign policy has to be muscular. We may not like this fact but it is a fact. We can't unilaterally decide to withdraw our positions in the world or we will wither into irrelevance until our supply lines are threatened when of course it will be too late. I don't care what trump said on one day in 2022. It doesn't mitigate years of his cozying up to the most brutal thugs in the world. Finally, we didn't win the Cold War by retreating. With all due respect, to hear that coming from you proves that the neocons who got us into the Iraq war have won. I prefer democracy over other forms of government but we can’t impose democracy on other countries via the CIA or regime change wars. That simply doesn’t work and it’s why we’ve lost almost every war that the US has been involved with since Vietnam… You and your dreaded neocons. 1. We're not trying to impose democracy on Ukraine. The Ukrainian people WANT democracy and they WANT to be integrated with the west politically, militarily, and economically. 2. Your dreaded neoCons have nothing to do with this. 3. Supporting Ukraine's quest for independence and democracy is the right thing to do.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 21, 2024 14:45:15 GMT -5
The Russia-Ukraine war was totally predictable And yet you not only failed to see it coming but you ridiculed those of us who said Putin's invasion of imminent. The Russians view Ukrainians as their brothers This is an asinine statement if I've ever seen one.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 21, 2024 16:39:08 GMT -5
With all due respect, to hear that coming from you proves that the neocons who got us into the Iraq war have won. I prefer democracy over other forms of government but we can’t impose democracy on other countries via the CIA or regime change wars. That simply doesn’t work and it’s why we’ve lost almost every war that the US has been involved with since Vietnam… You and your dreaded neocons. 1. We're not trying to impose democracy on Ukraine. The Ukrainian people WANT democracy and they WANT to be integrated with the west politically, militarily, and economically. 2. Your dreaded neoCons have nothing to do with this. 3. Supporting Ukraine's quest for independence and democracy is the right thing to do. 1. Ukrainians are not a monolith. There are a range of different views within Ukrainian politics and Zelensky has dealt with his political opposition by jailing them or banning opposition parties and media. Very undemocratic. Peace activists in Ukraine are being jailed for opposing the war. Military age male Ukrainians can’t legally leave Ukraine. 2. That’s a lie. Victoria Nuland and the Bush administration began efforts to bring Ukraine into NATO in the early-00s. She’s married to Robert Kagan, one of the most prominent figures in the Neoconservative movement. Tony Blinken could be described as a Neocon or Liberal interventionist. He supported the Iraq war and there’s very little daylight between the Liberal interventionists and the Neocons. 3. You can support Ukraine with your own money however, Ukraine isn’t entitled to American taxpayers money indefinitely. It’s totally fair and legit to debate the extent to which we want to be involved with subsidizing their war.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 21, 2024 19:04:46 GMT -5
You and your dreaded neocons. 1. We're not trying to impose democracy on Ukraine. The Ukrainian people WANT democracy and they WANT to be integrated with the west politically, militarily, and economically. 2. Your dreaded neoCons have nothing to do with this. 3. Supporting Ukraine's quest for independence and democracy is the right thing to do. 2. That’s a lie. Victoria Nuland and the Bush administration began efforts to bring Ukraine into NATO in the early-00s. She’s married to Robert Kagan, one of the most prominent figures in the Neoconservative movement. Tony Blinken could be described as a Neocon or Liberal interventionist. He supported the Iraq war and there’s very little daylight between the Liberal interventionists and the Neocons. I mean honestly, I think something must of snapped this weekend when the House overwhelmingly passed aid to Ukraine. Ukraine has repeatedly shown, going all the way back to 1991 but especially during the 2004 Orange Revolution and again during the Maidan Revolution in 2014 that they do not want to be under Moscow's boot. I swear you think that there's a neocon under every bed.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 21, 2024 19:21:53 GMT -5
2. That’s a lie. Victoria Nuland and the Bush administration began efforts to bring Ukraine into NATO in the early-00s. She’s married to Robert Kagan, one of the most prominent figures in the Neoconservative movement. Tony Blinken could be described as a Neocon or Liberal interventionist. He supported the Iraq war and there’s very little daylight between the Liberal interventionists and the Neocons. I mean honestly, I think something must of snapped this weekend when the House overwhelmingly passed aid to Ukraine. Ukraine has repeatedly shown, going all the way back to 1991 but especially during the 2004 Orange Revolution and again during the Maidan Revolution in 2014 that they do not want to be under Moscow's boot. I swear you think that there's a neocon under every bed. I’m aware that Ukrainian nationalism goes back decades. They’re infamous for siding with the Nazis during WWII remember? But the wave of pro-NATO Ukrainian nationalism coincided with US attempts to meddle in Ukraine’s politics beginning in the early-00s. Nuland, who worked for Bush, Obama, and Biden, has been in the middle of all the activities in Ukraine from the 00s through this year. She made policy recommendations to Cheney and Rumsfeld during the Iraq war. The CIA invested billions into Ukraine before and after the Maidan. The NY Times claims there are dozens of CIA bases across Ukraine. It’s basically become an outpost. Only Americans believe that Russians posting memes on Facebook is more effective than the CIA and the NED. The rest of the world isn’t so naive. The US boosted the Ukrainian nationalists and it led to a predictable clash between Russia and Ukraine following eight years of civil war in the country. Why Ukraine matters so much to our national security community, I don’t quite understand. But the idea that “democracy” around the world depends on a country that jails peace activists, bans opposition parties, and calls off elections, is a bad joke.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 21, 2024 20:03:22 GMT -5
I mean honestly, I think something must of snapped this weekend when the House overwhelmingly passed aid to Ukraine. Ukraine has repeatedly shown, going all the way back to 1991 but especially during the 2004 Orange Revolution and again during the Maidan Revolution in 2014 that they do not want to be under Moscow's boot. I swear you think that there's a neocon under every bed. I’m aware that Ukrainian nationalism goes back decades. They’re infamous for siding with the Nazis during WWII remember? But the wave of pro-NATO Ukrainian nationalism coincided with US attempts to meddle in Ukraine’s politics beginning in the early-00s. Nuland, who worked for Bush, Obama, and Biden, has been in the middle of all the activities in Ukraine from the 00s through this year. She made policy recommendations to Cheney and Rumsfeld during the Iraq war. The CIA invested billions into Ukraine before and after the Maidan. The NY Times claims there are dozens of CIA bases across Ukraine. It’s basically become an outpost. Only Americans believe that Russians posting memes on Facebook is more effective than the CIA and the NED. The rest of the world isn’t so naive. The US boosted the Ukrainian nationalists and it led to a predictable clash between Russia and Ukraine following eight years of civil war in the country. Why Ukraine matters so much to our national security community, I don’t quite understand. But the idea that “democracy” around the world depends on a country that jails peace activists, bans opposition parties, and calls off elections, is a bad joke. You love talking about Maidan because you’ve convinced yourself that Nuland was some sort of puppet master orchestrating the whole thing. Not surprisingly, you don’t want to talk about the Orange Revolution of 2004, which happened a year before the Rumsfeld meeting your Vatnik Michael Tracey is going on about. Actually Ukrainian ‘nationalism’ goes back hundreds of years. As for elections. You know who else didn’t have elections in the middle of an existential war? The United Kingdom. No one is claiming Ukraine is perfect but they are striving for democracy and integration with the west in the face of a genocidal invasion launched by a tyrannical dictator
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Post by soulflower on Apr 21, 2024 20:26:42 GMT -5
Why Ukraine matters so much to our national security community, I don’t quite understand. But the idea that “democracy” around the world depends on a country that jails peace activists, bans opposition parties, and calls off elections, is a bad joke. No one is claiming Ukraine is perfect but they are striving for democracy and integration with the west in the face of a genocidal invasion launched by a tyrannical dictator There are all sorts of good reasons to support Ukraine's quest for independence and sovereignty. But the claim that "Ukraine is what stands between democracy and autocracy in the free world" is not one of them. That's a BS talking point that is up there with the "Iraqis will greet us as liberators" stuff from the Iraq war. The Congressional Military Industrial Complex will say almost anything to manufacture consent for unlimited Defense spending. The outcome of this war has very little impact on the state of democracy here or anywhere else. What you seem to misunderstand is that the vast majority of my antagonism about this war is directed at Congress and the White House, not Ukrainians themselves. I understand very well the situation they're in. But I'm also a realist who understands that they won't get what they desire through military force. They need to be more strategic in a geopolitical sense. Russians think like Chess players. You have to think two or three steps ahead of your opponent and I don't see much of that sort of strategic thinking from Ukraine or their Western allies.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 21, 2024 23:52:09 GMT -5
No one is claiming Ukraine is perfect but they are striving for democracy and integration with the west in the face of a genocidal invasion launched by a tyrannical dictator There are all sorts of good reasons to support Ukraine's quest for independence and sovereignty. But the claim that "Ukraine is what stands between democracy and autocracy in the free world" is not one of them. People much smarter than you, with skin in the game, and direct experience dealing with Moscow are telling us that Putin is not going to stop at Ukraine. Should I believe David Sacks or the leaders in Poland, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, or the various Russian expats telling us this? Or should we just take Putin's words seriously? To me that's an easy call. That's a BS talking point that is up there with the "Iraqis will greet us as liberators" stuff from the Iraq war. The Congressional Military Industrial Complex will say almost anything to manufacture consent for unlimited Defense spending. The outcome of this war has very little impact on the state of democracy here or anywhere else. Ukraine is not Iraq. The outcome of this war will absolutely have an impact on the state of democracy in Ukraine and the stability of Europe. So, you're wrong. What you seem to misunderstand is that the vast majority of my antagonism about this war is directed at Congress and the White House, not Ukrainians themselves. I understand very well the situation they're in. But I'm also a realist who understands that they won't get what they desire through military force. They need to be more strategic in a geopolitical sense. Russians think like Chess players. You have to think two or three steps ahead of your opponent and I don't see much of that sort of strategic thinking from Ukraine or their Western allies. This is wishful thinking and admiration for a thug authoritarian dictator with imperial dreams. Nothing else. The reality is that the Biden administration was one step ahead of Putin in the fall of 2021 into the winter of 2022. The further reality is that your adored chess player completely underestimated the Ukrainian people and their leadership and has blundered into a strategic defeat that has set his country back a decade. He has literally strengthened and expanded the very alliance that he sought to weaken. His vaunted military has been revealed to be a paper tiger and the loss of Kherson and failure to reach Kyiv was nothing short of a humiliation. He has been outclassed and out maneuvered by Zelensky since February 2022. I've yet to see any semblance of realism when it comes to your opinions about Putin's Russia.
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 22, 2024 7:46:22 GMT -5
Glad to see the Russian stooges in Congress getting their asses handed to them. If you're skeptical about your tax dollars funding perpetual and unwinnable wars, you're a "Russian stooge". A hit dog is gonna holler. I'm talking about MTG and her comrades on Capitol Hill. Not you. But if you wanna play victim, be my guest.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 22, 2024 8:51:45 GMT -5
If you're skeptical about your tax dollars funding perpetual and unwinnable wars, you're a "Russian stooge". A hit dog is gonna holler. I'm talking about MTG and her comrades on Capitol Hill. Not you. But if you wanna play victim, be my guest. Here's the thing. I'm principled. Therefore I defend even my worst enemy if I feel that they've been wronged. Hence why I spend lots of time defending the speech Rights of people whom I mostly disagree with. You've seen me do that over the years even to the point of defending Gov. Whitmer's allleged kidnap plotters after it became clear that they were set up by FBI informants. I strongly disagree with their political views but wrong is wrong. And yes, I've been a victim of the Boomer neo-McCarthyism here and in my personal life in conversations with Democrat friends and family about Ukraine policies. So it's tiring to me at this point. My basic points are, Ukraine is not part of the US and we're not at war with Russia. So it's perfectly fair for Americans (including MTG) to have differing opinions about the extent to which we should support Ukraine. Simply having a different opinion shouldn't be treated as "bad faith" or "pro-Putin". Whether Ukraine wins or loses makes little difference to 90% of Americans. They're not entitled to our money and unless we're willing to put American boots on the ground, Ukraine is unlikely to win the war. Politico: US weighs sending additional military advisers to Ukraine as Russia gains momentum
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 22, 2024 9:26:25 GMT -5
A hit dog is gonna holler. I'm talking about MTG and her comrades on Capitol Hill. Not you. But if you wanna play victim, be my guest. Here's the thing. I'm principled. Therefore I defend even my worst enemy if I feel that they've been wronged. Hence why I spend lots of time defending the speech Rights of people whom I mostly disagree with. You've seen me do that over the years even to the point of defending Gov. Whitmer's allleged kidnap plotters after it became clear that they were set up by FBI informants. I strongly disagree with their political views but wrong is wrong. And yes, I've been a victim of the Boomer neo-McCarthyism here and in my personal life in conversations with Democrat friends and family about Ukraine policies. So it's tiring to me at this point. My basic points are, Ukraine is not part of the US and we're not at war with Russia. So it's perfectly fair for Americans (including MTG) to have differing opinions about the extent to which we should support Ukraine. Simply having a different opinion shouldn't be treated as "bad faith" or "pro-Putin". Whether Ukraine wins or loses makes little difference to 90% of Americans. They're not entitled to our money and unless we're willing to put American boots on the ground, Ukraine is unlikely to win the war. Politico: US weighs sending additional military advisers to Ukraine as Russia gains momentum
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 22, 2024 9:42:58 GMT -5
A hit dog is gonna holler. I'm talking about MTG and her comrades on Capitol Hill. Not you. But if you wanna play victim, be my guest. Here's the thing. I'm principled. Therefore I defend even my worst enemy if I feel that they've been wronged. Hence why I spend lots of time defending the speech Rights of people whom I mostly disagree with. You've seen me do that over the years even to the point of defending Gov. Whitmer's allleged kidnap plotters after it became clear that they were set up by FBI informants. I strongly disagree with their political views but wrong is wrong. And yes, I've been a victim of the Boomer neo-McCarthyism here and in my personal life in conversations with Democrat friends and family about Ukraine policies. So it's tiring to me at this point. My basic points are, Ukraine is not part of the US and we're not at war with Russia. So it's perfectly fair for Americans (including MTG) to have differing opinions about the extent to which we should support Ukraine. Simply having a different opinion shouldn't be treated as "bad faith" or "pro-Putin".
1. It is not an alleged plot. They've been found guilty in a court of law by a jury of their peers. 2. You're too often willing to condone acts of extremism or outright terrorism (in this case a plot to kidnap a sitting governor which would have certainly led to several injuries and deaths) if it advances the cause of 'bothsiderism' which you seem to hold so dear. 3. Here's what you don't get. I have disagreements with several posters on this board about Ukraine - Ishmael and Jimmy Jazz come immediately to mind but they don't parrot Kremlin propaganda or spread disinformation from Russian propaganda outlets. 4. When we see Marjorie Taylor Greene offering amendments about the 'persecuted minorities in Transcarpathia' it is perfectly legitimate to question where she's getting that information because it is so obscure (especially for a woman who couldn't find Transcarpathia on a map if you put a gun to her head) and so closely mimics the disinformation being floated by Putin/Orban.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 22, 2024 10:18:51 GMT -5
Here's the thing. I'm principled. Therefore I defend even my worst enemy if I feel that they've been wronged. Hence why I spend lots of time defending the speech Rights of people whom I mostly disagree with. You've seen me do that over the years even to the point of defending Gov. Whitmer's allleged kidnap plotters after it became clear that they were set up by FBI informants. I strongly disagree with their political views but wrong is wrong. And yes, I've been a victim of the Boomer neo-McCarthyism here and in my personal life in conversations with Democrat friends and family about Ukraine policies. So it's tiring to me at this point. My basic points are, Ukraine is not part of the US and we're not at war with Russia. So it's perfectly fair for Americans (including MTG) to have differing opinions about the extent to which we should support Ukraine. Simply having a different opinion shouldn't be treated as "bad faith" or "pro-Putin".
1. It is not an alleged plot. They've been found guilty in a court of law by a jury of their peers. The men who weren't informants didn't know each other prior to being brought together by the informants. Without the FBI's informants organizing a fake plot, these weirdos may never have done anything beyond saying extreme stuff on message boards. When some of them got cold feet, the informants encouraged them to continue to participate. We can agree to disagree on whether entrapment is a Good or Bad law enforcement tactic. I've made clear that I don't think it's a good or ethical tactic in principle. 2. You're too often willing to condone acts of extremism or outright terrorism (in this case a plot to kidnap a sitting governor which would have certainly led to several injuries and deaths) if it advances the cause of 'bothsiderism' which you seem to hold so dear. In no way have I ever supported or condoned the FBI informants' kidnapping plot. I like Gov. Whitmer but even if I didn't like her, I don't support kidnapping politicians. I've made clear that I objected to the FBI's use of entrapment in that case and other cases. 3. Here's what you don't get. I have disagreements with several posters on this board about Ukraine - Ishmael and Jimmy Jazz come immediately to mind but they don't parrot Kremlin propaganda or spread disinformation from Russian propaganda outlets. Ukrainian corruption is real, not Russian propaganda. It's well documented by western sources. ( Ukraine most corrupt country in Europe after Russia) Ukraine's role in fueling global neo-nazi groups is not Russian propaganda. It's very easy to find articles about that from western news outlets. ( Time Magazine feature) The fact that Ukraine is losing the war is not Russian propaganda. Even ISW/Understanding War admits it now. Literally 80%-90% of the stuff I post about Russia or Ukraine comes from mainstream western outlets. I've followed the Russia-Ukraine stuff since at least 2017. I had a headstart on most here on following this war. Occasionally I may post a random Tweet from a sketchy account but the content of the Tweets are what matters. I don't do a background check on every single account that appears in my social media feeds. When I posted that Tweet in the thread about Georgia, my intent was to show a video of the incident. I didn't know anything about the DD geopolitics account. The video they posted is real. I don't endorse other stuff posted by that account. If anything I post is inaccurate, you're welcome to fact-check me. I am not a "shoot from the hip" poster. Everything I post on this topic and others, I can cite legit references for to support my arguments. 4. When we see Marjorie Taylor Greene offering amendments about the 'persecuted minorities in Transcarpathia' it is perfectly legitimate to question where she's getting that inforcmation because it is so obscure (especially for a woman who couldn't find Transcarpathia on a map if you put a gun to her head) and so closely mimics the disinformation being floated by Putin/Orban.I have no idea where she gets her information from but it's a fact that some minorities in Ukraine feel mistreated or disenfranchised. Ukraine, like the US at the time of the Revolutionary war, is a diverse country that doesn't have a fully developed national identity. Some groups feel mistreated. Some groups experience ethnic bigotry. Again, I cannot speak for where MTG gets her information but she's not far off of the reality of the status of minority groups in Ukraine. And yes, not all propaganda is false information. Factual information can be promoted for propaganda purposes. The Soviets famously emphasized racial segregation in the US as part of their propaganda but that doesn't mean racial segregation wasn't a real thing. American elites did the right thing in pivoting to civil rights and de-segregation in response to Soviet propaganda.
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Post by zenwalk on Apr 22, 2024 11:43:33 GMT -5
The neocon protocols were not in our interest. I said it had to be muscular, not stupid. The problem is that we’re dealing with humans, not machines, who have made one mistake after another with regards to foreign policies since the Iraq war. A rethinking of the way America engages the rest of the world never really happened after Iraq. People seem to think doing the same things over and over will lead to positive results eventually despite the long trail of failed policies… The problem as I see it is that the Ukraine and Russia war is a noble war and we haven't had a single one of those since I've been alive. Wars have become about securing resources for corporate interests. Catch 22 come true. The Russia-Ukraine war was totally predictable and avoidable. American diplomats warned for years that pushing Ukraine towards NATO membership would lead to Russia becoming more militaristic and anti-Western. Now that the diplomats who warned us about what’s happening in Russia today have been proven correct, people still are doubling down on stupid policies. The Russians view Ukrainians as their brothers and will never accept them joining NATO. Henry Kissinger, who I despised, was right about that as well as the current CIA director, William Burns. Our policies in Ukraine will never succeed so long as they’re detached from reality… Crimea when it happened was accepted because its the Russians only warm water port. Much the same way we did nothing as Hong Kong fell without a shot. We didn't have a clue as to the determination of the Ukes which changed everything and created a huge opportunity. Foreign policy will always be a boardgame and nothing is going to change that. The strategies might and I hope they do as they are confrontational. But humans are apes. A better solution would be to rent out the ports to Russia which I suspect will be the end result.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 22, 2024 11:57:49 GMT -5
In no way have I ever supported or condoned the FBI informants' kidnapping plot. I like Gov. Whitmer but even if I didn't like her, I don't support kidnapping politicians. And yet, here you are equivocating for them again. It's not the 'FBI informants' kidnapping plot', it's the kidnapping plot. I hope they rot in jail because it could have been a blood bath. Shame on you
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 22, 2024 11:59:39 GMT -5
Six years old. The Ukrainian government has been addressing these issues as part of their popular effort to join the EU.
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