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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 12:27:03 GMT -5
If "Jews" is kept in the sentence, then imo it is anti-Semitic; however, if the line is corrected to read "Israelis", then no it is not anti-Semitic imo. Bullseye! Hence my question. The firestorm began when a social media user with the handle @jbh1970.jh40 posted a comment on one of Fox News Digital's Instagram posts discussing the ongoing Israel-Palestine conflict. The user questioned, "What's up with all the ignorant Jew haters in the world?" In response, Sandra Sayegh Dudum, the Vici Dolls founder, shocked the online world with her comment: "They [jews] have been killing innocent people for 70 years stealing their homeland and lying to the media. Having the world fooled by their arrogant white privilege. The indigenous Palestinian people have had enough. So, this is the result." www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/who-is-sandra-sayegh-dudum-vici-dolls-founder-resigns-over-antisemitic-comments/ar-AA1jcYxSI know it's hard for some people to acknowledge that anti-Semitism exists, but it does. They know it. I know it.
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 2, 2023 12:30:28 GMT -5
I think we need to accept that Israel is not a perfect country and has oppressed & killed a lot of Palestinians over the years and the Palestinians aren't happy about it. Whether it is antisemitic or not is irrelevant. Israel has contributed to an untenable situation that allowed for this to happen.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 12:35:19 GMT -5
I had no idea who Sandra Sayegh Dudum is before Sprightly mentioned her so I can't speak to the intent of her post...
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 12:36:17 GMT -5
I had no idea who Sandra Sayegh Dudum is before Sprightly mentioned her so I can't speak to the intent of her post... Cool. Suddenly you have to be familiar with someone before commenting on their comments.
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 12:38:05 GMT -5
I think we need to accept that Israel is not a perfect country and has oppressed & killed a lot of Palestinians over the years and the Palestinians aren't happy about it. Whether it is antisemitic or not is irrelevant. Israel has contributed to an untenable situation that allowed for this to happen. I agree. EXCEPT that her comment was in response to a comment about Jews. So, I am told that when comments like hers are made, they about Israelis, not Jews. Yet, she doesn't distinguish and nor do most people if they are honest.
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 2, 2023 12:39:56 GMT -5
I think we need to accept that Israel is not a perfect country and has oppressed & killed a lot of Palestinians over the years and the Palestinians aren't happy about it. Whether it is antisemitic or not is irrelevant. Israel has contributed to an untenable situation that allowed for this to happen. I agree. EXCEPT that her comment was in response to a comment about Jews. So, I am told that when comments like hers are made, they about Israelis, not Jews. Yet, she doesn't distinguish and nor do most people if they are honest. I think many people are unable to differentiate between Israel and Jews or don't understand what Israel is. But that is not excuse. She sounds ignorant and hateful.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 12:59:05 GMT -5
I had no idea who Sandra Sayegh Dudum is before Sprightly mentioned her so I can't speak to the intent of her post... Cool. Suddenly you have to be familiar with someone before commenting on their comments. Not at all. What I'm saying is, it looks like the word "Jews" wasn't in her original post. And given that I know nothing about this woman's political views, I won't make any assumptions about whether she meant "Jews" or "Israelis". I have no idea what she meant. What you're trying to do is what people typically do when they disagree with a protest movement. For example: People who didn't like the TEA party protests focused on the bad actors who said bigoted or racist stuff. People who disliked Black Lives Matter focused on the riots at some BLM protests. Now people who dislike pro-Palestine movement focus on the bad actors who say or do offensive things in order to discredit the broader movement. The problem is, it's not working. Israel isn't getting a free pass from the global public for their war crimes. Most people are horrified by how they've responded to the Oct. 7th attacks and that's why calls for a ceasefire are growing.
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Post by mrsmlh on Nov 2, 2023 13:01:20 GMT -5
I agree. EXCEPT that her comment was in response to a comment about Jews. So, I am told that when comments like hers are made, they about Israelis, not Jews. Yet, she doesn't distinguish and nor do most people if they are honest. I think many people are unable to differentiate between Israel and Jews or don't understand what Israel is. But that is not excuse. She sounds ignorant and hateful. Most people don't differentiate between Hamas and Gazans either.
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 13:15:45 GMT -5
Cool. Suddenly you have to be familiar with someone before commenting on their comments. Not at all. What I'm saying is, it looks like the word "Jews" wasn't in her original post. And given that I know nothing about this woman's political views, I won't make any assumptions about whether she meant "Jews" or "Israelis". I have no idea what she meant. What you're trying to do is what people typically do when they disagree with a protest movement. For example: People who didn't like the TEA party protests focused on the bad actors who said bigoted or racist stuff. People who disliked Black Lives Matter focused on the riots at some BLM protests. Now people who dislike pro-Palestine movement focus on the bad actors who say or do offensive things in order to discredit the broader movement. The problem is, it's not working. Israel isn't getting a free pass from the global public for their war crimes. Most people are horrified by how they've responded to the Oct. 7th attacks and that's why calls for a ceasefire are growing. lol Get outta here with your nonsense! She responded to a post about Jews, not Israelis. You can't give an inch if it doesn't align with your prejudices.
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Post by WKDWZD on Nov 2, 2023 13:32:08 GMT -5
Bullseye! Hence my question. The firestorm began when a social media user with the handle @jbh1970.jh40 posted a comment on one of Fox News Digital's Instagram posts discussing the ongoing Israel-Palestine conflict. The user questioned, "What's up with all the ignorant Jew haters in the world?"In response, Sandra Sayegh Dudum, the Vici Dolls founder, shocked the online world with her comment: "They [jews] have been killing innocent people for 70 years stealing their homeland and lying to the media. Having the world fooled by their arrogant white privilege. The indigenous Palestinian people have had enough. So, this is the result." www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/who-is-sandra-sayegh-dudum-vici-dolls-founder-resigns-over-antisemitic-comments/ar-AA1jcYxSI know it's hard for some people to acknowledge that anti-Semitism exists, but it does. They know it. I know it. None of the bolded statement was in your original post. Of course 'anti-Semitism' exists, I am just far more careful with my definition of it, and challenge any misuse of it.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 2, 2023 13:54:57 GMT -5
I think we need to accept that Israel is not a perfect country and has oppressed & killed a lot of Palestinians over the years and the Palestinians aren't happy about it. Whether it is antisemitic or not is irrelevant. Israel has contributed to an untenable situation that allowed for this to happen. I think most people do accept that. The problem is, we're seeing a rise in anti-semitism (or more open anti-semitism), since October 7th. It is troubling.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 2, 2023 14:01:51 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 14:25:13 GMT -5
The sections that I underlined seem to be contradictory. A robust debate about these difficult and polarizing issues includes views that rationalize or justify Hamas' actions. And if they're arguing that certain points of view aren't welcome or should be excluded from the conversation, then they're not in favor of an honest and robust debate. In other words, they want to limit what is acceptable to discuss. Which is an anti-free speech expression. I posted this video earlier but here it is again because it ties directly into the debates happening on college campuses: Live From The Table Podcast: Norman Finkelstein and Eli Lake Debate - Israel Hamas DebateSome academics like Norman Finklestein have rationalized Hamas' actions. While I disagree with Finklestein, I don't think anyone can accuse him of Hate Speech (or antisemitism) nor should non-Jewish students or academics who articulate similar views be accused of Hate Speech (unless they express bigotry towards Jews). A robust and honest debate includes views that some find repugnant or morally wrong. Not everyone has the same perceptions of Israel and Hamas. Shocker. I know. And the video above shows a group of people discussing this polarizing and sensitive topic (the Israel-Hamas war) while remaining civil and respectful in their disagreements. Something that I hope everyone can try to do when sensitive topics are discussed.
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 14:50:51 GMT -5
Some people won't be happy until everyone accepts that there is no anti-Semitism taking place and that their way of viewing events and expressing their opinions are only acceptable. It's on the forum in full view and has been especially prevalent since the day Russia invaded Ukraine. And they will be the ones who decide what is and is not an acceptable thing to say - even as they go on about their own rights to say whatever they wish - even when they engage in what they might claim to be "civil" discourse.
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 14:57:00 GMT -5
Nope. No anti-Semitism here: A Jordanian man arrested last month in Houston on a federal firearm possession charge had spoken of “martyrdom,” a federal judge said in a court order, and was “plotting to attack a Jewish gathering,” a law enforcement source told CNN. Sohaib Abuayyash, 20, who is in the United States on an expired nonimmigrant visa, made “statements to others that support the killing of individuals of particular religious faiths,” and “referenced an event in Houston for members of a particular religious group,” according to a federal court judge who ordered the man be detained pending trial. The affidavit also says Abuayyash “has been in direct contact with others who share a radical mindset, has been conducting physical training, and has trained with weapons to possibly commit an attack.” The affidavit provides little detail on the investigation into Abuayyash. But in an order of detention pending trial document filed on October 24, US Magistrate Judge Christina A. Bryan wrote that Abuayyash “has viewed specific and detailed content posted by radical organizations on the internet including lessons on how to construct bombs or explosive devices; and that Defendant has made statements to others that support the killing of individuals of particular religious faiths.” www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/jordanian-arrested-in-houston-made-statements-supporting-killing-individuals-of-particular-faiths-judge-s-order-says/ar-AA1ji4pl?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=8135dfa4aceb494dbf1785927a28966f&ei=8
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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 15:13:25 GMT -5
Some people won't be happy until everyone accepts that there is no anti-Semitism taking place and that their way of viewing events and expressing their opinions are only acceptable. Another strawman argument from you. Literally no one on the forum is arguing that "anti-semitism doesn't exist". As a Black person who has experienced my fair share of racial prejudice, I oppose all expressions of racial, ethnic, or religious bigotry so I hope your comment isn't pointed in my direction. What some people are rejecting: - that general criticism of Israel's actions against the Palestinians is inherently anti-semitic. Israel is a nation-state so criticism of their policies is fair game. - that pro-Palestine protests are "pro-Hamas" or dominated by people who hate Jews. There are bad actors in every protest movement so I haven't denied that some ugly comments have been made or hateful incidents have occurred. I don't condone anyone expressing hateful views that attack someone's religion or ethnicity. I also don't associate all Jewish people with the state of Israel. As noted here, I've shared lots of comments and examples of Jews criticizing Israel's policies or calling for a ceasefire in the latest war. I've also gone out of my way to say that while I don't agree with some of the academics and activists who have made statements that rationalize or justify Hamas' actions, I support their freedom to express unpopular opinions and oppose censorship of their views.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 2, 2023 15:18:11 GMT -5
Simon Sebag Montefiore is the author of Jerusalem: The Biography and most recently The World: A Family History of Humanity.
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 15:19:48 GMT -5
Some people won't be happy until everyone accepts that there is no anti-Semitism taking place and that their way of viewing events and expressing their opinions are only acceptable. Another strawman argument from you. Literally no one on the forum is arguing that "anti-semitism doesn't exist". As a Black person who has experienced my fair share of racial prejudice, I oppose all expressions of racial, ethnic, or religious bigotry so I hope your comment isn't pointed in my direction. What some people are rejecting: - that general criticism of Israel's actions against the Palestinians is inherently anti-semitic. Israel is a nation-state so criticism of their policies is fair game. - that pro-Palestine protests are "pro-Hamas" or dominated by people who hate Jews. There are bad actors in every protest movement so I haven't denied that some ugly comments have been made or hateful incidents have occurred. I don't condone anyone expressing hateful views that attack someone's religion or ethnicity. I've also gone out of my way to say that while I don't agree with some of the academics and activists who have made statements that rationalize or justify Hamas' actions, I support their freedom to express unpopular opinions and oppose censorship of their views. You don't have a prejudicial bone in your body. I know. Your grandfather was Jewish, you're Black. You have Palestinian friends and Israeli friends. So certainly not you.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 15:22:38 GMT -5
Another strawman argument from you. Literally no one on the forum is arguing that "anti-semitism doesn't exist". As a Black person who has experienced my fair share of racial prejudice, I oppose all expressions of racial, ethnic, or religious bigotry so I hope your comment isn't pointed in my direction. What some people are rejecting: - that general criticism of Israel's actions against the Palestinians is inherently anti-semitic. Israel is a nation-state so criticism of their policies is fair game. - that pro-Palestine protests are "pro-Hamas" or dominated by people who hate Jews. There are bad actors in every protest movement so I haven't denied that some ugly comments have been made or hateful incidents have occurred. I don't condone anyone expressing hateful views that attack someone's religion or ethnicity. I've also gone out of my way to say that while I don't agree with some of the academics and activists who have made statements that rationalize or justify Hamas' actions, I support their freedom to express unpopular opinions and oppose censorship of their views. You don't have a prejudicial bone in your body. I know. Your grandfather was Jewish, you're Black. You have Palestinian friends and Israeli friends. So certainly not you. Damn right. I have a very diverse family and friend circle. On the otherhand, some people project their own biases onto others.
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 15:23:13 GMT -5
You don't have a prejudicial bone in your body. I know. Your grandfather was Jewish, you're Black. You have Palestinian friends and Israeli friends. So certainly not you. Damn right. I have a very diverse family and friend circle. On the otherhand, some people project their own biases onto others. Uh huh. It's always "some people" but never you. I know. I'm sorry.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 2, 2023 15:28:03 GMT -5
One thing I have learned during my time on this planet is that if you find yourself spending a lot of time trying to explain why certain statements aren't actually sexist, anti-semitic, racist, misogynistic, homophobic, or bigoted, chances are it is a good time for you to take a long look in the mirror and then re-evaluate those statements.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 15:53:10 GMT -5
Nothing good comes from censorship or suppression of unpopular speech.
Difficult and sometimes painful conversations are better than expressing oneself through violence.
I have an old school view of free speech. Back in the day, you wrote letters to the editor or held public debates with people you disagreed with. You didn't try to get people fired for saying things that you disagree with.
Colleges and universities have historically been places for free expression of good and bad ideas. Hopefully it stays that way...
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 16:04:16 GMT -5
Nothing good comes from censorship or suppression of unpopular speech. Difficult and sometimes painful conversations are better than expressing oneself through violence. I have an old school view of free speech. Back in the day, you wrote letters to the editor or held public debates with people you disagreed with. You didn't try to get people fired for saying things that you disagree with. Colleges and universities have historically been places for free expression of good and bad ideas. Hopefully it stays that way... I assume that you don't think ALL free expressions are okay.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 16:14:28 GMT -5
Nothing good comes from censorship or suppression of unpopular speech. Difficult and sometimes painful conversations are better than expressing oneself through violence. I have an old school view of free speech. Back in the day, you wrote letters to the editor or held public debates with people you disagreed with. You didn't try to get people fired for saying things that you disagree with. Colleges and universities have historically been places for free expression of good and bad ideas. Hopefully it stays that way... I assume that you don't think ALL free expressions are okay. On this forum, as long as it doesn't violate the rules set by Rael and others, I'm okay with it. In the general public, I support everyone's right to express themselves even if I vehemently disagree with the content of their expression. And you know darn well that I'm anti-Cancel culture.
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 16:16:29 GMT -5
I assume that you don't think ALL free expressions are okay. On this forum, as long as it doesn't violate the rules set by Rael and others, I'm okay with it. In the general public, I support everyone's right to express themselves even if I vehemently disagree with the content of their expression. And you know darn well that I'm anti-Cancel culture. I don't know why you said that because I am also anti-cancel culture. But not all free expression is acceptable. I think you know this.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 16:34:52 GMT -5
On this forum, as long as it doesn't violate the rules set by Rael and others, I'm okay with it. In the general public, I support everyone's right to express themselves even if I vehemently disagree with the content of their expression. And you know darn well that I'm anti-Cancel culture. I don't know why you said that because I am also anti-cancel culture. But not all free expression is acceptable. I think you know this. Whether speech or self-expression is acceptable or unacceptable depends on the environment and circumstances. Hence why I don't express my views on politics or religion at work. We all agree that hate speech should be condemned and discouraged but it's protected by the First Amendment. We can dislike and strongly disagree with students or professors who rationalize Hamas' actions but I don't agree that its hate speech and that's specifically what I responded to in my response to Joy sharing the letter earlier about Campus speech.
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 16:37:19 GMT -5
I don't know why you said that because I am also anti-cancel culture. But not all free expression is acceptable. I think you know this. Whether speech or self-expression is acceptable or unacceptable depends on the environment and circumstances. Hence why I don't express my views on politics or religion at work. We all agree that hate speech should be condemned and discouraged but it's protected by the First Amendment. We can dislike and strongly disagree with students or professors who rationalize Hamas' actions but I don't agree that its hate speech and that's what I responded to in my response to Joy sharing the letter earlier about Campus speech. Okay. Thanks.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 2, 2023 21:04:41 GMT -5
I don't know why you said that because I am also anti-cancel culture. But not all free expression is acceptable. I think you know this. We can dislike and strongly disagree with students or professors who rationalize Hamas' actions but I don't agree that its hate speech Let's look at just how morally bankrupt this statement is... A college professor or a student group in a university with a large Jewish and Israeli segment in the student body glorifying the SLAUGHTER of innocent Jewish men, women, and children. How is that not hate speech? And let's be clear, that's what you're referring to when you euphemistically talk about Hamas' 'actions'. Furthermore, as the letter makes clear, a university is a place that should foster healthy debate but a university should also instill a sense of ethics and, it has a basic responsibility to create a safe environment for ALL of its students and faculty. Projecting messages onto a Jewish library in which you glorify the 'martyrs' or harassing, either verbally or physically, Jewish and Israeli students is an unacceptable form of intimidation. The issue, that many of our Jewish friends keep pointing out, is that there is a significant strain of anti-semitism running through the pro-Palestinian 'movement'. I know that's hard for you to accept, but we have all seen it. And, quite frankly, until you accept it, this movement will remain on the fringe
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 3, 2023 6:00:04 GMT -5
If people are trying to justify the mass killings of Palestinians, and there are many people doing that, what's the difference if someone justifies the mass killing of Israelis? Is human life not equal?
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Post by soulflower on Nov 3, 2023 8:05:37 GMT -5
If people are trying to justify the mass killings of Palestinians, and there are many people doing that, what's the difference if someone justifies the mass killing of Israelis? Is human life not equal? ^This. There has been far less of a moral panic about republicans and hardline pro-Israel people rationalizing the killing Palestinian civilians or rationalizing ethnically cleansing Israel of Palestinians. I strongly disagree with arguments that rationalize oppression and violence towards Palestinians but I strongly support people's right to express those views.
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