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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 8:30:22 GMT -5
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Post by msmaggie on Nov 2, 2023 8:34:41 GMT -5
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Post by mrsmlh on Nov 2, 2023 8:39:30 GMT -5
It is not okay to support the slaughter of "innocent" people whether they be Israelis or Palestinians. Unfortunately you seem to feel that the slaughter of over 15,000 Palestinians is okay because 5,000 Israelis were slaughtered. (Figures are not accurate and only used to show the disproportion of innocents slaughtered.) I condemn both. I just don't accept the narrative that all blame is on one side, and that Israelis are culpable for Bibi's crimes but the Palestinians are not implicated in Hamas' crimes. A lot of your posts and articles seem to say that you feel that the Israelis aren't culpable for Bibi's crimes but that the Palestinians are culpable in Hamas' crimes.
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 8:42:07 GMT -5
^we have a winner. Didn't expect Maggie to be one of the few who rationalize injustices against non-Hamas Palestinians. Collective punishment never works. Vengeance is not a strategy... You should get a timeout for deliberately misrepresenting what people post in order to prove your false assumptions about people.
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Post by msmaggie on Nov 2, 2023 8:45:27 GMT -5
I condemn both. I just don't accept the narrative that all blame is on one side, and that Israelis are culpable for Bibi's crimes but the Palestinians are not implicated in Hamas' crimes. A lot of your posts and articles seem to say that you feel that the Israelis aren't culpable for Bibi's crimes but that the Palestinians are culpable in Hamas' crimes. Not at all. Enough guilt to go around.I object to the narrative that Israeli is committing atrocities while glossing over Oct 7 and hostages. Meanwhile |
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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 8:54:39 GMT -5
^we have a winner. Didn't expect Maggie to be one of the few who rationalize injustices against non-Hamas Palestinians. Collective punishment never works. Vengeance is not a strategy... You should get a timeout for deliberately misrepresenting what people post in order to prove your false assumptions about people. Maggie said yesterday: Hamas hid in plain sight because tbe Gazans allowed it. You really think they built that system of tunnels without the compliance of the Gazans?
I doubt the Israelis can eliminate Hamas. You know who could? The Palestinians. I haven't misrepresented her opinion. I gave her time to elaborate and she basically rationalized Israel's collective punishment. Maggie is capable of defending herself. She doesn't need you to protect her from dissenting points of view...
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 8:57:27 GMT -5
You should get a timeout for deliberately misrepresenting what people post in order to prove your false assumptions about people. Maggie said yesterday: Hamas hid in plain sight because tbe Gazans allowed it. You really think they built that system of tunnels without the compliance of the Gazans?
I doubt the Israelis can eliminate Hamas. You know who could? The Palestinians. I haven't misrepresented her opinion. I gave her time to elaborate and she basically rationalized Israel's collective punishment. Maggie is capable of defending herself. She doesn't need you to protect her from dissenting points of view... She didn't rationalize anything. You are being ridiculous. Agree with you or expect to be labeled.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 9:05:46 GMT -5
A lot of your posts and articles seem to say that you feel that the Israelis aren't culpable for Bibi's crimes but that the Palestinians are culpable in Hamas' crimes. Not at all. Enough guilt to go around.I object to the narrative that Israeli is committing atrocities while glossing over Oct 7 and hostages. Meanwhile It's not a "narrative" it's a reality that people can see with their own eyes. And people are understandably angry about what they see. What Hamas did on Oct. 7th doesn't justify Israel killing thousands of children in just a few weeks. More kids killed in Gaza in 3 weeks than all global conflict annually since 2019www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/gaza-child-death-toll-1.7012927What Hamas did on Oct 7th doesn't justify the lack of concern for civilians in Gaza.
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Post by Ranger John on Nov 2, 2023 9:31:41 GMT -5
I'm hearing a lot of the Hamas/Nazi comparisons from the right. I think it's from people who listen to Ben Shapiro. I don't agree with the comparison but there are definitely similarities. The problem with many pro-Israel supporters, especially those on the right, is trying to convince them that not all palestinians are terrorists or that they want to kill every Jew on earth. They seem to be convincing themselves of why its OK to massacre tens of thousands of innocent people in order to kill a few terrorists. You have to dehumanize your enemy to justify committing what you know are war crimes. And I'll add that the extremes on both sides do this. (Hamas and Israel's extremists) People here in the US should know better than to take part in the dehumanization. And that applies to both sides of this issue as well... No one should need to be convinced that Hamas would happily kill every Jew in Israel if it was within their ability to do so. Hamas openly admits this is who they are.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 9:43:47 GMT -5
You have to dehumanize your enemy to justify committing what you know are war crimes. And I'll add that the extremes on both sides do this. (Hamas and Israel's extremists) People here in the US should know better than to take part in the dehumanization. And that applies to both sides of this issue as well... No one should need to be convinced that Hamas would happily kill every Jew in Israel if it was within their ability to do so. Hamas openly admits this is who they are. Many Jews have visited Gaza without being killed by Hamas. Makes one wonder if it's really about 'resisting oppression' more than antisemetism or Jihad. Dan Cohen, who is Jewish, lived in Gaza and the West Bank for several years while working on documentaries In Killing Gaza, independent journalists Max Blumenthal and Dan Cohen documented Israel’s 2014 war on Gaza
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Post by msmaggie on Nov 2, 2023 9:48:17 GMT -5
You should get a timeout for deliberately misrepresenting what people post in order to prove your false assumptions about people. Maggie said yesterday: Hamas hid in plain sight because tbe Gazans allowed it. You really think they built that system of tunnels without the compliance of the Gazans?
I doubt the Israelis can eliminate Hamas. You know who could? The Palestinians. I haven't misrepresented her opinion. I gave her time to elaborate and she basically rationalized Israel's collective punishment. Maggie is capable of defending herself. She doesn't need you to protect her from dissenting points of view... You are being childish. Stating that the Palestinians aren't blameless is not rationionalizing Israel's collective punishment. Just as Israel's poor treatment of Palestinians doesn't justify the horrible Oct 7 attack. The Treaty of Versailles was a bad idea and vengeful. That doesn't justify Hitler's actions. Let's attempt some level of nuance.
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Post by msmaggie on Nov 2, 2023 9:50:51 GMT -5
Not at all. Enough guilt to go around.I object to the narrative that Israeli is committing atrocities while glossing over Oct 7 and hostages. Meanwhile It's not a "narrative" it's a reality that people can see with their own eyes. And people are understandably angry about what they see. What Hamas did on Oct. 7th doesn't justify Israel killing thousands of children in just a few weeks. More kids killed in Gaza in 3 weeks than all global conflict annually since 2019www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/gaza-child-death-toll-1.7012927What Hamas did on Oct 7th doesn't justify the lack of concern for civilians in Gaza. Right. Highlighting the first part of that sentence while ignoring the rest is TOTALLY honest. And look up the definition of narrative--all forms of writing/speaking, including news.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 10:07:12 GMT -5
Maggie said yesterday: I haven't misrepresented her opinion. I gave her time to elaborate and she basically rationalized Israel's collective punishment. Maggie is capable of defending herself. She doesn't need you to protect her from dissenting points of view... You are being childish. Stating that the Palestinians aren't blameless is not rationionalizing Israel's collective punishment. Just as Israel's poor treatment of Palestinians doesn't justify the horrible Oct 7 attack. The Treaty of Versailles was a bad idea and vengeful. That doesn't justify Hitler's actions. Let's attempt some level of nuance. Saying "Gazans aren't blameless" in response to collective punishment by Israel is no different than Hamas saying "Israeli civilians aren't blameless for Israel's oppression of the Palestinian people" before their attacks on Israeli civilians. Both arguments can be used to justify violence against civilians and I reject both...
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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 10:08:27 GMT -5
One of the things I respect most about Jewish intellectuals is their devotion to freedom of speech and the free market of ideas. In the video below, a group of American Jews debate the Israel-Gaza war. Professor Norman Finklestein, a harsh critic of Israel's policies, sort of rationalizes Hamas' actions while Eli Lake, a neoconservative columnist, defend's Israel's response and criticizes Finklestein. I don't agree with Finklestein's rationalizations for Hamas' actions but I think he does a fair job of explaining the hopeless situation that preceded October 7th for the Palestinians in Gaza and even the West Bank. Live From The Table Podcast: Norman Finkelstein and Eli Lake Debate - Israel Hamas Debate |
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Post by msmaggie on Nov 2, 2023 10:51:56 GMT -5
You are being childish. Stating that the Palestinians aren't blameless is not rationionalizing Israel's collective punishment. Just as Israel's poor treatment of Palestinians doesn't justify the horrible Oct 7 attack. The Treaty of Versailles was a bad idea and vengeful. That doesn't justify Hitler's actions. Let's attempt some level of nuance. Saying "Gazans aren't blameless" in response to collective punishment by Israel is no different than Hamas saying "Israeli civilians aren't blameless for Israel's oppression of the Palestinian people" before their attacks on Israeli civilians. Both arguments can be used to justify violence against civilians and I reject both... Both arguments are true. Neither is a justification of violence. But the arguments are still true. Geez.
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 11:15:03 GMT -5
To the arbiters of what is and is not "anti-Semitic"
Is this?
"They [jews] have been killing innocent people for 70 years stealing their homeland and lying to the media. Having the world fooled by their arrogant white privilege. The indigenous Palestinian people have had enough. So, this is the result."
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Post by Ranger John on Nov 2, 2023 11:21:05 GMT -5
No one should need to be convinced that Hamas would happily kill every Jew in Israel if it was within their ability to do so. Hamas openly admits this is who they are. Many Jews have visited Gaza without being killed by Hamas. Makes one wonder if it's really about 'resisting oppression' more than antisemetism or Jihad. Dan Cohen, who is Jewish, lived in Gaza and the West Bank for several years while working on documentaries In Killing Gaza, independent journalists Max Blumenthal and Dan Cohen documented Israel’s 2014 war on Gaza None of this information changes what is in Hamas' charter. They have told the world who they are. On October 7, they showed the world who they are, and it was entirely consistent with their charter. They have made further public statements that they will show the world who they are again if they are not destroyed. It's reasonable to separate Hamas from the Palestinians as a whole. Especially given that Hamas brutally abuses Palestinians almost as much as they do Israelis. It is not reasonable for Israel, the wider world, or indeed the Palestinians themselves, to continue to permit Hamas to exist as a group.
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Post by Ranger John on Nov 2, 2023 11:23:53 GMT -5
To the arbiters of what is and is not "anti-Semitic" Is this? "They [jews] have been killing innocent people for 70 years stealing their homeland and lying to the media. Having the world fooled by their arrogant white privilege. The indigenous Palestinian people have had enough. So, this is the result." One of the interesting things about this statement is that at least as far as the US government is concerned, Arabs (including the Palestinians) are white. SF (and others) insistence that they are "brown" not withstanding. www.npr.org/2022/02/17/1079181478/us-census-middle-eastern-white-north-african-mena
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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 11:30:51 GMT -5
Saying "Gazans aren't blameless" in response to collective punishment by Israel is no different than Hamas saying "Israeli civilians aren't blameless for Israel's oppression of the Palestinian people" before their attacks on Israeli civilians. Both arguments can be used to justify violence against civilians and I reject both... Both arguments are true. Neither is a justification of violence. But the arguments are still true. Geez. Both arguments are being used by hardliners on both sides to justify violence against civilians. If you don't agree with the violence against civilians, fair enough.
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Post by WKDWZD on Nov 2, 2023 11:43:22 GMT -5
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 11:47:17 GMT -5
Why is it too soon to call?
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Post by WKDWZD on Nov 2, 2023 11:57:14 GMT -5
Why is it too soon to call? Didn't you click the link?
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Post by soulflower on Nov 2, 2023 11:58:46 GMT -5
Note the intellectual dishonesty of Alan Dershowitz's argument. He's correct that not all Israelis support Netanyahu but dead wrong to imply that Gazans unanimously support Hamas because Hamas won the elections in Gaza in 2006. As the poll I cited earlier shows, the majority of Gazans, almost two-thirds, want a two-state solution and wanted Hamas to stick to the ceasefire with Israel. There's no evidence that the attacks on Oct. 7th were supported by most Gazans. Very few people had advance knowledge of Hamas' plans. All that nuance is ignored by those who imply that '100% of the civilians in Gaza support Hamas because Hamas won a plurality of the votes in an election 17 years ago'. Polls Show Majority of Gazans Were Against Breaking Ceasefire; Hamas and Hezbollah Unpopular Among Key Arab Publics
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 12:00:30 GMT -5
Why is it too soon to call? Didn't you click the link? Did you know that the author of it stepped down? So . . . are you going to give your opinion of the quote or not?
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Post by WKDWZD on Nov 2, 2023 12:02:27 GMT -5
Didn't you click the link? Did you know that the author of it stepped down? So . . . are you going to give your opinion of the quote or not? No. No, not yet.
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Post by summer23 on Nov 2, 2023 12:02:57 GMT -5
Did you know that the author of it stepped down? So . . . are you going to give your opinion of the quote or not? No. No, not yet. Must be then. That's all! Thanks!
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Post by mrsmlh on Nov 2, 2023 12:06:34 GMT -5
To the arbiters of what is and is not "anti-Semitic" Is this? "They [jews] have been killing innocent people for 70 years stealing their homeland and lying to the media. Having the world fooled by their arrogant white privilege. The indigenous Palestinian people have had enough. So, this is the result." If "Jews" is kept in the sentence, then imo it is anti-Semitic; however, if the line is corrected to read "Israelis", then no it is not anti-Semitic imo.
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Post by WKDWZD on Nov 2, 2023 12:08:27 GMT -5
Must be then. That's all! Thanks! Not so quick toots, you might make a call without enough info, I don't. And you didn't answer my question - who put "(Jews)" into the quote?
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Post by WKDWZD on Nov 2, 2023 12:09:23 GMT -5
To the arbiters of what is and is not "anti-Semitic" Is this? "They [jews] have been killing innocent people for 70 years stealing their homeland and lying to the media. Having the world fooled by their arrogant white privilege. The indigenous Palestinian people have had enough. So, this is the result." If "Jews" is kept in the sentence, then imo it is anti-Semitic; however, if the line is corrected to read "Israelis", then no it is not anti-Semitic imo. Bullseye! Hence my question.
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 2, 2023 12:23:28 GMT -5
You have to dehumanize your enemy to justify committing what you know are war crimes. And I'll add that the extremes on both sides do this. (Hamas and Israel's extremists) People here in the US should know better than to take part in the dehumanization. And that applies to both sides of this issue as well... No one should need to be convinced that Hamas would happily kill every Jew in Israel if it was within their ability to do so. Hamas openly admits this is who they are. Agree. But killing tens of thousands of non-Hamas Palestinians doesn't fix the situation. In fact it'll only make it worse.
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