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Post by pickle20 on Nov 3, 2023 8:08:54 GMT -5
What's the version of antisemitism against Palestinians or Muslims in general? Maybe we should come up with one so the playing field is even.
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Post by summer23 on Nov 3, 2023 8:14:43 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Nov 3, 2023 8:27:12 GMT -5
"The Left" includes many American Jews who reject Israel's violence towards Palestinians and defend open debate about Israel. The letter below addresses the campus speech issue: An open letter from Jewish writers U.S. adults' views on Israel-Hamas war depend on ageIsrael is comparable to apartheid South Africa or the Jim Crow south. People complaining about pro-Palestine movements among young people and college students need to remember how young people responded to South Africa's apartheid or how young people embraced our Civil Rights movement. They're sympathetic to the Palestinians not because they hate Jews but because they hate the injustices they've seen for decades in Israel. Israel has a PR problem and they know it.
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 3, 2023 8:34:54 GMT -5
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Post by summer23 on Nov 3, 2023 8:58:41 GMT -5
I assume that you don't think ALL free expressions are okay. On this forum, as long as it doesn't violate the rules set by Rael and others, I'm okay with it. In the general public, I support everyone's right to express themselves even if I vehemently disagree with the content of their expression. And you know darn well that I'm anti-Cancel culture. Could I at least assume that you are not okay with this "free expression"? Dai, an engineering student, was arrested by federal authorities on Tuesday after they connected him to a series of disturbing online posts threatening to kill and rape Jewish students and to “bring an assault rifle to campus.” The 21-year-old allegedly posted a series of threats to an internet message board intended for fraternity and sorority under usernames like “Hamas fighter,” “glorious Hamas,” and “jew evil,” according to the indictment. www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/cornell-university-cancels-friday-classes-after-arrest-of-student-patrick-dai-over-antisemitic-threats/ar-AA1jiA67?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=fb1b9151e3fc48f9b9592eacfc834228&ei=8
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Post by soulflower on Nov 3, 2023 9:04:54 GMT -5
On this forum, as long as it doesn't violate the rules set by Rael and others, I'm okay with it. In the general public, I support everyone's right to express themselves even if I vehemently disagree with the content of their expression. And you know darn well that I'm anti-Cancel culture. Could I at least assume that you are not okay with this "free expression"? Dai, an engineering student, was arrested by federal authorities on Tuesday after they connected him to a series of disturbing online posts threatening to kill and rape Jewish students and to “bring an assault rifle to campus.” The 21-year-old allegedly posted a series of threats to an internet message board intended for fraternity and sorority under usernames like “Hamas fighter,” “glorious Hamas,” and “jew evil,” according to the indictment. www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/cornell-university-cancels-friday-classes-after-arrest-of-student-patrick-dai-over-antisemitic-threats/ar-AA1jiA67?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=fb1b9151e3fc48f9b9592eacfc834228&ei=8 I don't support hate speech. I've said it several times already. Why are you so obsessed with my opinions on obscure stuff that you bring up? Why do you spend entire days interrogating me?
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Post by summer23 on Nov 3, 2023 9:55:15 GMT -5
I don't support hate speech. I've said it several times already. Why are you so obsessed with my opinions on obscure stuff that you bring up? Why do you spend entire days interrogating me? What you said is , "Whether speech or self-expression is acceptable or unacceptable depends on the environment and circumstances. Hence why I don't express my views on politics or religion at work.
We all agree that hate speech should be condemned and discouraged but it's protected by the First Amendment.
We can dislike and strongly disagree with students or professors who rationalize Hamas' actions but I don't agree that its hate speech and that's specifically what I responded to in my response to Joy sharing the letter earlier about Campus speech.I am just trying to understand where you think the line should be drawn. I get it now. There are none. Just saying that one should rape and kill Jews is protected. It's when they do it, that the line is crossed. Glad we cleared that up. If you support or defend words like this, YOU DO support hate speech. You exaggerate the importance of your opinions to me. Typical.
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Post by msmaggie on Nov 3, 2023 10:11:14 GMT -5
"The Left" includes many American Jews who reject Israel's violence towards Palestinians and defend open debate about Israel. The letter below addresses the campus speech issue: An open letter from Jewish writers U.S. adults' views on Israel-Hamas war depend on ageIsrael is comparable to apartheid South Africa or the Jim Crow south. People complaining about pro-Palestine movements among young people and college students need to remember how young people responded to South Africa's apartheid or how young people embraced our Civil Rights movement. They're sympathetic to the Palestinians not because they hate Jews but because they hate the injustices they've seen for decades in Israel. Israel has a PR problem and they know it. Think the situation is more comparable to Northern Ireland. Oppressed minority, terrorist response. Israel needs to vote Bibi out immediately.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 3, 2023 10:25:26 GMT -5
I am just trying to understand where you think the line should be drawn. The "line" for me is drawn at hateful speech and violence towards Jews, Arabs, and Muslims. Obviously, hate speech is protected speech so people have the right to express bigoted views but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be any consequences for their expression. What I've said throughout this thread is that speech that specifically criticizes Israel, even to the point of rationalizing Hamas' actions, is fair game and shouldn't be excluded from public discussions about the Israel-Hamas war. To prove my point, I cited a Jewish professor, Norman Finklestein, who has defended or rationalized Hamas' actions. The point being, it's not inherently anti-semetic or bigoted to argue that violence is a rational response to oppression. I disagree that violence against civilians is morally defensible regardless of the circumstances but I don't automatically assume that people who use that sort of rhetoric are 'bigoted' unless they specifically say hateful things about Jews or Palestinians.
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Post by summer23 on Nov 3, 2023 12:31:32 GMT -5
I am just trying to understand where you think the line should be drawn. The "line" for me is drawn at hateful speech and violence towards Jews, Arabs, and Muslims. Obviously, hate speech is protected speech so people have the right to express bigoted views but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be any consequences for their expression. What I've said throughout this thread is that speech that specifically criticizes Israel, even to the point of rationalizing Hamas' actions, is fair game and shouldn't be excluded from public discussions about the Israel-Hamas war. To prove my point, I cited a Jewish professor, Norman Finklestein, who has defended or rationalized Hamas' actions. The point being, it's not inherently anti-semetic or bigoted to argue that violence is a rational response to oppression. I disagree that violence against civilians is morally defensible regardless of the circumstances but I don't automatically assume that people who use that sort of rhetoric are 'bigoted' unless they specifically say hateful things about Jews or Palestinians. I understand now. Threats of violence are protected speech.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 3, 2023 13:02:32 GMT -5
The "line" for me is drawn at hateful speech and violence towards Jews, Arabs, and Muslims. Obviously, hate speech is protected speech so people have the right to express bigoted views but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be any consequences for their expression. What I've said throughout this thread is that speech that specifically criticizes Israel, even to the point of rationalizing Hamas' actions, is fair game and shouldn't be excluded from public discussions about the Israel-Hamas war. To prove my point, I cited a Jewish professor, Norman Finklestein, who has defended or rationalized Hamas' actions. The point being, it's not inherently anti-semetic or bigoted to argue that violence is a rational response to oppression. I disagree that violence against civilians is morally defensible regardless of the circumstances but I don't automatically assume that people who use that sort of rhetoric are 'bigoted' unless they specifically say hateful things about Jews or Palestinians. I understand now. Threats of violence are protected speech. I never said 'threats of violence' are protected speech. Thank you for reminding me why I should stop taking your bait...
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Post by summer23 on Nov 3, 2023 13:05:07 GMT -5
I understand now. Threats of violence are protected speech.I never said 'threats of violence' are protected speech. Thank you for reminding me why I should stop taking your bait... Because, as per usual, you completely skirted the question I asked that started this. Don't bother. And, yes, please ignore me. Thanks.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 3, 2023 13:27:05 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Nov 4, 2023 11:20:53 GMT -5
The kids are alright. It’s their critics who need to wake up.
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 5, 2023 6:48:13 GMT -5
The truth is hiding in plain sight. Palestinian people are worthless and deserving of death for their crime of being born into a brutal dictatorship they never voted for or wanted.
And apparently because of past atrocities committed against the Jewish people from the beginning of time, it’s justifiable to slaughter innocent Palestinians.
Racism and hatred will always exist and be treated legitimately under the right conditions. We’re seeing those conditions now.
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Post by kandace on Nov 5, 2023 11:30:16 GMT -5
The truth is hiding in plain sight. Palestinian people are worthless and deserving of death for their crime of being born into a brutal dictatorship they never voted for or wanted. And apparently because of past atrocities committed against the Jewish people from the beginning of time, it’s justifiable to slaughter innocent Palestinians. Racism and hatred will always exist and be treated legitimately under the right conditions. We’re seeing those conditions now. That is the bitter truth that I notice no one wants to try to refute. The unfortunate Palestinians are paying the price for disrupting fantasies of an Arabfrei state.
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Post by kandace on Nov 5, 2023 11:35:58 GMT -5
This mass slaughter will completely destroy Israel morally and accelerate the growth of nihilism in the US and the West in general. It will also accelerate the growing divide between the West and the Global South. It will also unfortunately lead to the return of anti-Semitism and the growth of discrimination against Jews no matter their position on the slaughter in Gaza.
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Post by kandace on Nov 5, 2023 12:00:37 GMT -5
You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” Romans 2:23-24
And now what do I have here?' declares the LORD. 'For my people have been taken away for nothing, and those who rule them mock,' declares the LORD. 'And all day long my name is constantly blasphemed. Isaiah 52:5
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Post by soulflower on Nov 5, 2023 12:07:07 GMT -5
This mass slaughter will completely destroy Israel morally and accelerate the growth of nihilism in the US and the West in general. It will also accelerate the growing divide between the West and the Global South. It will also unfortunately lead to the return of anti-Semitism and the growth of discrimination against Jews no matter their position on the slaughter in Gaza. I don’t want to hear the term “Rules-based order” uttered again by western liberal leaders. Selective enforcement of the rules means there aren’t really “rules” for international relations and human rights…
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 5, 2023 14:00:31 GMT -5
Roey Porat is a graduate student in the religious studies department of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and a fellow at The Mandel School.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 5, 2023 14:34:20 GMT -5
What should be done about the negative views of Israel on college campuses?
Publicly shaming college students for their protests?
Threaten to deny them employment after they graduate?
None of those things will change minds.
What will change the image of Israel among young people in Western countries is for Israel to change.
End the apartheid. Implement a two-state solution or grant equal rights to Palestinians.
The bottom-line is, Israel’s hardline leaders chose to empower Hamas over working with the Palestinian Authority to implement a two-state solution.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 5, 2023 14:48:07 GMT -5
The truth is hiding in plain sight. Palestinian people are worthless and deserving of death for their crime of being born into a brutal dictatorship they never voted for or wanted. And apparently because of past atrocities committed against the Jewish people from the beginning of time, it’s justifiable to slaughter innocent Palestinians. Racism and hatred will always exist and be treated legitimately under the right conditions. We’re seeing those conditions now. Israel is responding to a barbaric attack in which Hamas slaughtered 1400 people, many of them innocent civilians. They tied people together and then set them on fire. They butchered children in front of their parents. I think there's a legitimate debate about whether Israel's response is going too far or if Israel has been too cavalier about collateral damage but I really think your statement is way over the top.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 5, 2023 15:29:14 GMT -5
The truth is hiding in plain sight. Palestinian people are worthless and deserving of death for their crime of being born into a brutal dictatorship they never voted for or wanted. And apparently because of past atrocities committed against the Jewish people from the beginning of time, it’s justifiable to slaughter innocent Palestinians. Racism and hatred will always exist and be treated legitimately under the right conditions. We’re seeing those conditions now. Israel is responding to a barbaric attack in which Hamas slaughtered 1400 people, many of them innocent civilians. They tied people together and then set them on fire. They butchered children in front of their parents. I think there's a legitimate debate about whether Israel's response is going too far or if Israel has been too cavalier about collateral damage but I really think your statement is way over the top. All that is true but the issue the people you criticize are addressing is WHY Hamas exists. Hamas didn’t appear magically out of thin air. They’re on the extreme end of Palestinian resistance to Israel’s oppressive policies. Sort of like how the neonazi Azov battalion developed out of Ukraine’s resistance to Russian aggression. The Black Panthers weren’t all good people either but they developed out of resistance to institutional racism in America. In other words, while resistance to oppression is legitimate, not all of the actors on the resistance side are good people. And the bad actors shouldn’t be used to de-legitimize the broader cause of resisting systematic injustice. I don’t think Hamas is a good faith actor but have noted how Israelis who oppose the two-state solution have opportunistically used Hamas. See below for example: "The prime minister [Netanyahu] also said that 'whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for' transferring the funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state."www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035Hamas’ uncompromising views on Israel work to the benefit of Israel’s far-Right which doesn’t want to grant concessions to the Palestinians. They can use Hamas’ extremism to justify not negotiating with the Palestinians and that’s pretty much what they’ve done for the past decade…
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Post by alienrace on Nov 5, 2023 17:09:31 GMT -5
Hamas may have been created as a response to injustice, but they've long since graduated into purveyors of a holy war that is bent on Jewish extermination. Their attack was on a major Jewish religious holiday. Case closed.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 5, 2023 17:41:52 GMT -5
Hamas may have been created as a response to injustice, but they've long since graduated into purveyors of a holy war that is bent on Jewish extermination. Their attack was on a major Jewish religious holiday. Case closed. They killed Palestinian and Thai workers on Oct. 7th too. It looks to me like they went on a killing spree and killed lots of civilians of various religious and ethnic origins and didn’t spare non-Jews. And as I mentioned earlier, Jews visit Gaza all the time and don’t get kidnapped or killed. Strange that it’s safe for Jews to go to Hamas controlled Gaza if they hate Jews so much. So while I strongly disagree with Hamas to the extent that they want to ‘wipe Israel off the map’, it seems like an exaggeration to me to argue that hatred of Jews is the sole reason for their existence. They exist in part because some secular Palestinian parties like Fatah are viewed as corrupt and Hamas, which is more religious, filled a power vacuum in Gaza. They also exist under the umbrella of Palestinian groups that resist Israel. With that said, I understand that there are many who like you, view Oct. 7th as an attack on Jews, not just an attack on Israel. That’s part of the reason for the inability for both sides of this debate to come to an understanding. It’s sort of like how the Left and Right don’t agree on January 6th. In this age where people live in information bubbles, it’s difficult to get millions of people to view things the same way…
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 6, 2023 7:22:52 GMT -5
This mass slaughter will completely destroy Israel morally and accelerate the growth of nihilism in the US and the West in general. It will also accelerate the growing divide between the West and the Global South. It will also unfortunately lead to the return of anti-Semitism and the growth of discrimination against Jews no matter their position on the slaughter in Gaza. I don’t want to hear the term “Rules-based order” uttered again by western liberal leaders. Selective enforcement of the rules means there aren’t really “rules” for international relations and human rights… The rules don’t apply to those in power...just everyone else.
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 6, 2023 7:28:46 GMT -5
The truth is hiding in plain sight. Palestinian people are worthless and deserving of death for their crime of being born into a brutal dictatorship they never voted for or wanted. And apparently because of past atrocities committed against the Jewish people from the beginning of time, it’s justifiable to slaughter innocent Palestinians. Racism and hatred will always exist and be treated legitimately under the right conditions. We’re seeing those conditions now. Israel is responding to a barbaric attack in which Hamas slaughtered 1400 people, many of them innocent civilians. They tied people together and then set them on fire. They butchered children in front of their parents. I think there's a legitimate debate about whether Israel's response is going too far or if Israel has been too cavalier about collateral damage but I really think your statement is way over the top. It’s not when it is talking about the people who think Palestinian lives are worthless. If you think it’s ok to kill hundreds of innocent people to get one guy then that’s who I am referring to. The logic pretzel people are involved with to defend and explain away overkill attacks on Gaza. For for the hundredth time...this is only going to make things worse. You think anyone left in Gaza once this ends is going to go back to the status quo? Or think kindly or peacefully of Israel? The only way I see this ending is with mass slaughter and ethnic cleansing of Gaza and apparently people are OK with that. Which is odd considering the lessons we supposedly learned from history.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 6, 2023 9:22:13 GMT -5
We have to talk about the Right too
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Post by Ranger John on Nov 6, 2023 11:48:30 GMT -5
We have to talk about the Right too Ah yes. The right is the problem because it was revolted by Hamas' atrocities on October 7. Nothing like being outraged by the decapitation of babies and a massacre at a peace concert to demonstrate a "grotesque anti-Palestinian sentiment."
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 6, 2023 12:12:24 GMT -5
We have to talk about the Right too Ah yes. The right is the problem because it was revolted by Hamas' atrocities on October 7. Nothing like being outraged by the decapitation of babies and a massacre at a peace concert to demonstrate a "grotesque anti-Palestinian sentiment." I am revolted by it too but I don't believe it justifies knowingly massacring tens of thousands of innocent people, including thousands of children, to get a few of the people responsible for those attacks.
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