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Post by WKDWZD on Nov 6, 2023 12:19:12 GMT -5
Ah yes. The right is the problem because it was revolted by Hamas' atrocities on October 7. Nothing like being outraged by the decapitation of babies and a massacre at a peace concert to demonstrate a "grotesque anti-Palestinian sentiment." I am revolted by it too but I don't believe it justifies knowingly massacring tens of thousands of innocent people, including thousands of children, to get a few of the people responsible for those attacks. He's only outraged by decapitated Israeli babies. Crushed under rubble, blown to smithereens, mown down on highways, Palestinian babies, don't count.
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 6, 2023 12:44:33 GMT -5
I am revolted by it too but I don't believe it justifies knowingly massacring tens of thousands of innocent people, including thousands of children, to get a few of the people responsible for those attacks. He's only outraged by decapitated Israeli babies. Crushed under rubble, blown to smithereens, mown down on highways, Palestinian babies, don't count. It sure does seem to be that way.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 6, 2023 12:51:56 GMT -5
We have to talk about the Right too Ah yes. The right is the problem because it was revolted by Hamas' atrocities on October 7. Nothing like being outraged by the decapitation of babies and a massacre at a peace concert to demonstrate a "grotesque anti-Palestinian sentiment." Yes, bigotry against Palestinians over what Hamas did is a problem. The 6 year old Palestinian kid murdered in Chicago in a hate crime after Oct. 7th was not in any way responsible for what Hamas did but he paid for it.
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Post by Ranger John on Nov 6, 2023 13:04:58 GMT -5
Ah yes. The right is the problem because it was revolted by Hamas' atrocities on October 7. Nothing like being outraged by the decapitation of babies and a massacre at a peace concert to demonstrate a "grotesque anti-Palestinian sentiment." Yes, bigotry against Palestinians over what Hamas did is a problem. The 6 year old Palestinian kid murdered in Chicago in a hate crime after Oct. 7th was not in any way responsible for what Hamas did but he paid for it. That wasn't a "right" problem. That was a crazy person problem. www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/us/chicago-muslim-boy-stabbing-investigation/index.htmlThere is a photo of the 71 year old murderer in the article, who looks like Nick Nolte's more drug addicted uncle. Anti-semitism remains the FAR larger problem. Take this imbecile for example: fox59.com/news/indy-police-arrest-terrorist-for-purposely-driving-her-car-into-home-used-by-hate-group/The "Hebrew Isralites" are, of course, the antisemitic hate group. But you know, it's nice to see these a-holes accidentally attacking themselves because they're too stupid to know better.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 6, 2023 13:11:38 GMT -5
Anti-semitism remains the FAR larger problem. Both forms of bigotry are bad. It's impossible to say which one is worse currently. Also, Arabs are semites too...
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Post by Ranger John on Nov 6, 2023 13:22:38 GMT -5
Anti-semitism remains the FAR larger problem. Both forms of bigotry are bad. It's impossible to say which one is worse currently. Also, Arabs are semites too... No. It is possible. In the US, Antisemitism is FAR more prevalent than Islamophobia. 2019 is the last set of stats available but see for yourself: ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2019/topic-pages/victimsThat ratio is broadly similar across the history of the UCR database. Weren't you one of the ones who was suggesting that Arabs are "brown people" a couple days back, when it better suited your narrative?
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 6, 2023 13:36:31 GMT -5
Both forms of bigotry are bad. It's impossible to say which one is worse currently. Also, Arabs are semites too... No. It is possible. In the US, Antisemitism is FAR more prevalent than Islamophobia. 2019 is the last set of stats available but see for yourself: ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2019/topic-pages/victimsThat ratio is broadly similar across the history of the UCR database. Weren't you one of the ones who was suggesting that Arabs are "brown people" a couple days back, when it better suited your narrative? Tell your fellow right-wingers to stop attacking Jewish folks then.
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Post by pickle20 on Nov 6, 2023 13:52:12 GMT -5
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Post by soulflower on Nov 6, 2023 13:56:58 GMT -5
Both forms of bigotry are bad. It's impossible to say which one is worse currently. Also, Arabs are semites too... No. It is possible. In the US, Antisemitism is FAR more prevalent than Islamophobia. 2019 is the last set of stats available but see for yourself: ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2019/topic-pages/victims Most hate crimes or racial incidents are not reported. Many go unreported. That's what I meant when I said it's impossible to know which is worse currently. Nice try though.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 6, 2023 13:57:59 GMT -5
It's worse for Israelis because the government over there is cracking down on dissent. There is also mob violence against the anti-war crowd in Israel.
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Post by Ranger John on Nov 6, 2023 14:20:14 GMT -5
Most hate crimes or racial incidents are not reported. Many go unreported. That's what I meant when I said it's impossible to know which is worse currently. Nice try though. Even taking for granted that most aren't reported, the difference is 60% of religious hate crimes are Antisemitic, and about 15% are Islamophobic. Or do you want us to believe that Jews always report hate crimes and Muslims never do?
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Post by soulflower on Nov 6, 2023 14:49:30 GMT -5
Great commentary from Obama.
I really wish Presidents could speak as honestly and reasonably while in office as they do when they become former-Presidents.
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Post by guido2 on Nov 6, 2023 17:16:47 GMT -5
Israel is responding to a barbaric attack in which Hamas slaughtered 1400 people, many of them innocent civilians. They tied people together and then set them on fire. They butchered children in front of their parents. I think there's a legitimate debate about whether Israel's response is going too far or if Israel has been too cavalier about collateral damage but I really think your statement is way over the top. All that is true but the issue the people you criticize are addressing is WHY Hamas exists. Hamas didn’t appear magically out of thin air. They’re on the extreme end of Palestinian resistance to Israel’s oppressive policies. Sort of like how the neonazi Azov battalion developed out of Ukraine’s resistance to Russian aggression. The Black Panthers weren’t all good people either but they developed out of resistance to institutional racism in America. In other words, while resistance to oppression is legitimate, not all of the actors on the resistance side are good people. And the bad actors shouldn’t be used to de-legitimize the broader cause of resisting systematic injustice. I don’t think Hamas is a good faith actor but have noted how Israelis who oppose the two-state solution have opportunistically used Hamas. See below for example: "The prime minister [Netanyahu] also said that 'whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for' transferring the funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state."www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035Hamas’ uncompromising views on Israel work to the benefit of Israel’s far-Right which doesn’t want to grant concessions to the Palestinians. They can use Hamas’ extremism to justify not negotiating with the Palestinians and that’s pretty much what they’ve done for the past decade… Well I dunno, but when a group, any group, calls for your group to be wiped off the face of the earth. And consistently re-emphasizes that, it's kinda tough to 'understand'. That said. What I don't get, (or maybe I do because I am old enough to realize that there is no longer deep thinking about history and rather 'in the moment' is the barometer) is the failure to realize several important points: 1- The League of Nations (eventually the UN) in conjunction with Britian created Israel. 2- Over the course of years 'Palestine' was in fact offered a two state arrangement. This was offered no less than five times. All refused but which ever Palestinian 'gooberment' was in power. 3- Hamas was ahhh voted into office (* see below) 4- There was never another election. 🤔 wondered why. (*) Hamas, the Palestinian militant group that currently rules the Gaza Strip, came to power through a complex series of events. Let’s delve into the history: 2006 Palestinian Elections: In January 2006, the Palestinian territories held parliamentary elections. Hamas won a bare plurality of votes (44% compared to the more moderate Fatah party’s 41%). Due to the electoral system, Hamas secured a strong majority of seats (74 to Fatah’s 45). Neither party was enthusiastic about sharing power, and tensions escalated. Unity Government and Gaza Control: In June 2007, a unity government was finally formed, but Hamas broke the deal and began targeting Fatah members. Eventually, Hamas took total control of the Gaza Strip. Those who survived fled to the West Bank. Since then, Gaza has remained under Hamas’ absolute rule. George W. Bush’s Role: The 2006 elections were influenced by the political ideals of President George W. Bush. Bush believed in spreading democracy globally, assuming that once dictators were toppled, free elections would lead to freedom and liberty. The world witnessed various democratic movements, including the Palestinian National Authority’s first election. Unfortunately, the outcome in Gaza did not align with Bush’s vision, as Hamas emerged as the dominant force. In summary, Hamas’ absolute control of Gaza was not what Palestinians initially voted for in 2006.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Nov 6, 2023 17:33:31 GMT -5
Great commentary from Obama. I really wish Presidents could speak as honestly and reasonably while in office as they do when they become former-Presidents. My sense is that the Biden White House is staffed by a lot of people who were there during the Obama years and that they threw their hands up long ago at any real chance for peace as long as Netanyahu was in power and decided to focus on other things. It is also my sense that they are now trying to position themselves to broker something after the immediate hostilities cease, and hopefully with a non Netanyahu government.
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Post by stevez51 on Nov 6, 2023 17:44:31 GMT -5
No. It is possible. In the US, Antisemitism is FAR more prevalent than Islamophobia. 2019 is the last set of stats available but see for yourself: ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2019/topic-pages/victimsThat ratio is broadly similar across the history of the UCR database. Weren't you one of the ones who was suggesting that Arabs are "brown people" a couple days back, when it better suited your narrative? Tell your fellow right-wingers to stop attacking Jewish folks then. The left wing crazies on college campuses are far from right wingers.
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Post by msmaggie on Nov 6, 2023 18:02:24 GMT -5
Most hate crimes or racial incidents are not reported. Many go unreported. That's what I meant when I said it's impossible to know which is worse currently. Nice try though. How do you know most hate crimes go unreported? And that incidents against Muslims are less likely to go unreported than those against Jews?
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Post by WKDWZD on Nov 6, 2023 18:15:45 GMT -5
Most hate crimes or racial incidents are not reported. Many go unreported. That's what I meant when I said it's impossible to know which is worse currently. Nice try though. How do you know most hate crimes go unreported? And that incidents against Muslims are less likely to go unreported than those against Jews? IMO, the machinations of 'anti-Semitism' has become something of an industry. It is absolutely no surprise that antisemitic incidents are more likely to be reported than Islamophobic incidents are.
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Post by msmaggie on Nov 6, 2023 18:22:45 GMT -5
How do you know most hate crimes go unreported? And that incidents against Muslims are less likely to go unreported than those against Jews? IMO, the machinations of 'anti-Semitism' has become something of an industry. It is absolutely no surprise that antisemitic incidents are more likely to be reported than Islamophobic incidents are. Examples of machinations of antisemitism?
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Post by soulflower on Nov 6, 2023 19:01:08 GMT -5
Most hate crimes or racial incidents are not reported. Many go unreported. That's what I meant when I said it's impossible to know which is worse currently. Nice try though. How do you know most hate crimes go unreported? And that incidents against Muslims are less likely to go unreported than those against Jews? I know, both from personal experience and research sources, that many hate incidents go unreported. Using the FBI's stats gives an idea but it's flawed to base conclusions on that alone because we can reasonably assume that it's an incomplete picture. I didn't intend to suggest that Muslims and Arabs experience more hate than Jews. I said 'we can't possibly know for certain' because of the fact that many incidents go unreported. Millions are victims of hate crimes, though many never report them Many victims of hate crimes are reluctant to report them to the police. And reported crimes do not always lead to arrests, prosecutions or even a record of hate crimes. Two-thirds of the victimization survey respondents who suspected they were targeted because of hate were unable to cite tangible evidence, such as hate speech, that could be used by law enforcement. Authorities could confirm only 2.5 percent of the reported crimes were motivated by hate.
What the victimization survey found has not been reflected in the FBI’s national hate crime data. In the same five-year period ending in 2016, the FBI counted only 30,000 hate crimes reported to them by local police. Only 12 percent of the nation’s police departments reported any hate crimes at all to the FBI.
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Post by msmaggie on Nov 6, 2023 19:29:32 GMT -5
How do you know most hate crimes go unreported? And that incidents against Muslims are less likely to go unreported than those against Jews? I know, both from personal experience and research sources, that many hate incidents go unreported. Using the FBI's stats gives an idea but it's flawed to base conclusions on that alone because we can reasonably assume that it's an incomplete picture. I didn't intend to suggest that Muslims and Arabs experience more hate than Jews. I said 'we can't possibly know for certain' because of the fact that many incidents go unreported. Millions are victims of hate crimes, though many never report them Many victims of hate crimes are reluctant to report them to the police. And reported crimes do not always lead to arrests, prosecutions or even a record of hate crimes. Two-thirds of the victimization survey respondents who suspected they were targeted because of hate were unable to cite tangible evidence, such as hate speech, that could be used by law enforcement. Authorities could confirm only 2.5 percent of the reported crimes were motivated by hate.
What the victimization survey found has not been reflected in the FBI’s national hate crime data. In the same five-year period ending in 2016, the FBI counted only 30,000 hate crimes reported to them by local police. Only 12 percent of the nation’s police departments reported any hate crimes at all to the FBI.
Well if there are significantly more hate crimes against Jews than Muslims reported, unless there is some reason to believe that Muslim directed hate crimes are much less likely to be reported than those directed toward Jews, the logical conclusion is that antisemitic hate crime is more common.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 7, 2023 10:42:18 GMT -5
Not sure what the point is of debating which group experiences more bigotry.
What’s the value in that discussion?
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Post by WKDWZD on Nov 7, 2023 10:57:58 GMT -5
Not sure what the point is of debating which group experiences more bigotry. What’s the value in that discussion? Some people need to be considered more victimised.
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Post by summer23 on Nov 8, 2023 7:26:48 GMT -5
IMO, the machinations of 'anti-Semitism' has become something of an industry. It is absolutely no surprise that antisemitic incidents are more likely to be reported than Islamophobic incidents are. Examples of machinations of antisemitism? Good luck with that.
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Post by soulflower on Nov 8, 2023 7:36:33 GMT -5
Greenwald recently interviewed two Harvard students who signed the controversial letter.
I’ll share the video when it’s available on Youtube.
They’re basically kids who believe Israel is committing crimes against humanity. I’d much rather see people try to engage with these students in public debate than attempt to shame and harass them.
The shame and harass campaign isn’t working so far anyway from the looks of things. 300,000 people showed up to pro-Palestine protests in DC last weekend for example…
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Post by WKDWZD on Nov 8, 2023 8:36:35 GMT -5
IMO, the machinations of 'anti-Semitism' has become something of an industry. It is absolutely no surprise that antisemitic incidents are more likely to be reported than Islamophobic incidents are. Examples of machinations of antisemitism? Yes, I misspoke, I should have said machinations of the ADL, sorry for the confusion. Here, Machinations of the Anti-Defamation League, a bit of a long read. Though I doubt many here will read it through.
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Post by msmaggie on Nov 8, 2023 8:44:47 GMT -5
Examples of machinations of antisemitism? Yes, I misspoke, I should have said machinations of the ADL, sorry for the confusion. Here, Machinations of the Anti-Defamation League, a bit of a long read. Though I doubt many here will read it through. You know this "Institute" is a key driver of Holocaust denial?
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Post by WKDWZD on Nov 8, 2023 9:10:34 GMT -5
You know this "Institute" is a key driver of Holocaust denial? Challenge the piece. Not the "institute". I have never denied the Holocaust.
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Post by msmaggie on Nov 8, 2023 9:14:54 GMT -5
You know this "Institute" is a key driver of Holocaust denial? Challenge the piece. Not the "institute". I have never denied the Holocaust. I read it. Should have stopped at "so-called holocaust". Rambling, barely coherent. Precious little about ADL "machinations". This kind of nonsense doesn't help your case.
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Post by WKDWZD on Nov 8, 2023 9:17:43 GMT -5
Challenge the piece. Not the "institute". I have never denied the Holocaust. I read it. Should have stopped at "so-called holocaust". Rambling, barely coherent. Precious little about ADL "machinations". This kind of nonsense doesn't help your case. Very much the response that I expected, it leaves no room for discussion.
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Post by msmaggie on Nov 8, 2023 9:21:29 GMT -5
I read it. Should have stopped at "so-called holocaust". Rambling, barely coherent. Precious little about ADL "machinations". This kind of nonsense doesn't help your case. Very much the response that I expected, it leaves no room for discussion. I have serious issues with Israel, especially the current administration. And the ongoing persecution of innocents. But quoting drivel from a holocaust denier is hardly fruitful discussion. It's filth.
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