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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 9:55:50 GMT -5
Cool, Hamas uses human shields. So does the IDF. Which makes them just as bad. Happy? There are no good guys in this fight, only innocent civilians made to suffer. I haven't seen real evidence of that but whether it's true or not, Hamas still sucks. I care about the facts, not feelings. RJ insists on calling me pro-Hamas despite the fact that I have stated repeatedly that I oppose their ideology and tactics. Targeting civilians is wrong whether Hamas or the IDF does it. He is attempting to run cover for the fact that Israel has committed war crimes almost every day for the last six months. Most recently, mass graves being found at a hospital in Gaza with the victims showing signs that they were executed. CNN: More than 300 bodies found in mass grave at Gaza hospitalTHAT is why Americans are protesting Israel. We don't have a problem with Jews, we have a problem with the behavior of the secular State of Israel. Some of the most vocal critics of Israel are Jews themselves and they're prominently participating in these protests. The Right is trying to muddle the waters and some Dems sadly are helping them do that, including the President...
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summer23
Full Member
"Sometimes party loyalty asks too much." JFK
Posts: 1,907
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Post by summer23 on Apr 23, 2024 9:59:14 GMT -5
Would be nice if people were interested in condemning hate speech here in this country. But I, and others, know why some will not.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 10:06:24 GMT -5
Would be nice if people were interested in condemning hate speech here in this country. But I, and others, know why some will not. Literally no one here supports Hate Speech. The leaders of the protests at Columbia have condemned the hate speech towards Jews and Muslims. All that aside, Hate Speech is protected under the 1A. There's only so much schools or activists can do to prevent verbal bigoted harassment committed by non-students in public and off campus. I suspect that some here would ban all protests if they could because there's always good faith and bad faith actors at every protest.
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 23, 2024 10:07:33 GMT -5
Would be nice if people were interested in condemning hate speech here in this country. But I, and others, know why some will not. Well first, is it really hate speech? Because a lot of what is being called hate speech isn't hate speech, just criticism of a government slaughtering civilians. Emotions are high on both sides. People need to take a deep breath and stop turning every argument into a Strawman.
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summer23
Full Member
"Sometimes party loyalty asks too much." JFK
Posts: 1,907
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Post by summer23 on Apr 23, 2024 10:30:07 GMT -5
Would be nice if people were interested in condemning hate speech here in this country. But I, and others, know why some will not. Literally no one here supports Hate Speech. The leaders of the protests at Columbia have condemned the hate speech towards Jews and Muslims. All that aside, Hate Speech is protected under the 1A. There's only so much schools or activists can do to prevent verbal bigoted harassment committed by non-students in public and off campus. I suspect that some here would ban all protests if they could because there's always good faith and bad faith actors at every protest. However, I also know that some people, including college students, do not know that difference between the Israeli government, an Israeli and a Jew - and it does not matter to them.
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summer23
Full Member
"Sometimes party loyalty asks too much." JFK
Posts: 1,907
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Post by summer23 on Apr 23, 2024 10:33:40 GMT -5
Would be nice if people were interested in condemning hate speech here in this country. But I, and others, know why some will not. Well first, is it really hate speech? Because a lot of what is being called hate speech isn't hate speech, just criticism of a government slaughtering civilians. Emotions are high on both sides. People need to take a deep breath and stop turning every argument into a Strawman. A lot of it is criticism. Legit. And a lot of it is not. But it could be that Jews on campuses are lying and the antisemitic speech and intimidation is not happening. I guess. At least according to some.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 23, 2024 10:37:37 GMT -5
Comfort doesn't lead to change. Discomfort does and that's why it's activists, not moderates, who have led the most successful social movements in our history. Zealotry in the service of rigid ideology is the road to moral compromise.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 10:43:31 GMT -5
Literally no one here supports Hate Speech. The leaders of the protests at Columbia have condemned the hate speech towards Jews and Muslims. All that aside, Hate Speech is protected under the 1A. There's only so much schools or activists can do to prevent verbal bigoted harassment committed by non-students in public and off campus. I suspect that some here would ban all protests if they could because there's always good faith and bad faith actors at every protest. However, I also know that some people, including college students, do not know that difference between the Israeli government, an Israeli and a Jew - and it does not matter to them. Yes, idiots show up to every protest but even the NYPD says the protesters at Columbia have been mostly peaceful. So you can't even use the same arguments you used to discredit the George Floyd protests. The fact that not everyone who shows up to protest shows their best behavior is not a reason to disregard the First Amendment. I'll wait for you to condemn pro-Israel counter-protesters who harass (verbally and physically) pro-Palestine protesters.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 10:45:59 GMT -5
Comfort doesn't lead to change. Discomfort does and that's why it's activists, not moderates, who have led the most successful social movements in our history. Zealotry in the service of rigid ideology is the road to moral compromise. What's the compromise position in debates over apartheid and genocide? These students are morally right in calling for their schools to divest from Israel even if some of their demands are impractical or not realistic. Americans are tired of subsidizing human rights abuses.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 10:54:33 GMT -5
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 23, 2024 10:59:14 GMT -5
However, I also know that some people, including college students, do not know that difference between the Israeli government, an Israeli and a Jew - and it does not matter to them. Yes, idiots show up to every protest but even the NYPD says the protesters at Columbia have been mostly peaceful. So you can't even use the same arguments you used to discredit the George Floyd protests. The fact that not everyone who shows up to protest shows their best behavior is not a reason to disregard the First Amendment. I'll wait for you to condemn pro-Israel counter-protesters who harass (verbally and physically) pro-Palestine protesters. You'll wait a long time, I'm guessing.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 23, 2024 10:59:36 GMT -5
Zealotry in the service of rigid ideology is the road to moral compromise. What's the compromise position in debates over apartheid and genocide? Hamas should release all the hostages and accept a ceasefire. Israel should allow people to return to their homes.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 23, 2024 11:00:41 GMT -5
Awww. What a sad little strawman. It doesn't matter whether the site under the hospital was the "nerve center for the attack on Israel" or just another Hamas facility. It was a terrorist facility using a hospital as a shield. But do go on with your disinformation about misinformation.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 23, 2024 11:01:18 GMT -5
You'll have to forgive us but when we see posters here routinely saying things on this board like, 'What's needed is someone with foreskin', we're absolutely right to bright up concerns of creeping anti-semitism in the vehement pro-Palestine movement.
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 23, 2024 11:02:01 GMT -5
What's the compromise position in debates over apartheid and genocide? Hamas should release all the hostages and accept a ceasefire. Israel should allow people to return to their homes. What homes?
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Post by kandace on Apr 23, 2024 11:07:51 GMT -5
Some folks misconstrue persecution with being unable to oppress others.
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 23, 2024 11:27:59 GMT -5
You'll have to forgive us but when we see posters here routinely saying things on this board like, 'What's needed is someone with foreskin', we're absolutely right to bright up concerns of creeping anti-semitism in the vehement pro-Palestine movem If you must quote it, quote it correctly, and in full
It was referring to Biden specifically, not "someone".
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summer23
Full Member
"Sometimes party loyalty asks too much." JFK
Posts: 1,907
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Post by summer23 on Apr 23, 2024 12:06:13 GMT -5
However, I also know that some people, including college students, do not know that difference between the Israeli government, an Israeli and a Jew - and it does not matter to them. Yes, idiots show up to every protest but even the NYPD says the protesters at Columbia have been mostly peaceful. So you can't even use the same arguments you used to discredit the George Floyd protests. The fact that not everyone who shows up to protest shows their best behavior is not a reason to disregard the First Amendment. I'll wait for you to condemn pro-Israel counter-protesters who harass (verbally and physically) pro-Palestine protesters. Nah. You have your own crusade going. It's all anti-Israel. You demand people to think like you. To opine like you. Not sure about that level of ego but that's okay.
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 23, 2024 12:10:11 GMT -5
Well first, is it really hate speech? Because a lot of what is being called hate speech isn't hate speech, just criticism of a government slaughtering civilians. Emotions are high on both sides. People need to take a deep breath and stop turning every argument into a Strawman. A lot of it is criticism. Legit. And a lot of it is not. But it could be that Jews on campuses are lying and the antisemitic speech and intimidation is not happening. I guess. At least according to some. Never said it isn't happening. In fact I posted this earlier on this thread and you liked it while others criticized me for saying something that really should have been a given. Both sides are exaggerating the other side's POV to shout them down. No one is really exchanging valid points. It's a mess which is why I have tried to stay out of it for the most part. The truth and reality lies somewhere in the middle, as it usually does.
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summer23
Full Member
"Sometimes party loyalty asks too much." JFK
Posts: 1,907
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Post by summer23 on Apr 23, 2024 12:11:18 GMT -5
A lot of it is criticism. Legit. And a lot of it is not. But it could be that Jews on campuses are lying and the antisemitic speech and intimidation is not happening. I guess. At least according to some. Never said it isn't happening. In fact I posted this earlier on this thread and you liked it while others criticized me for saying something that really should have been a given. Both sides are exaggerating the other side's POV to shout them down. No one is really exchanging valid points. It's a mess which is why I have tried to stay out of it for the most part. The truth and reality lies somewhere in the middle, as it usually does. Yes, I understand. Thank you.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 12:14:02 GMT -5
What's the compromise position in debates over apartheid and genocide? Hamas should release all the hostages and accept a ceasefire. Israel should allow people to return to their homes. True but what does that have to do with the demands that Columbia cut financial ties with Israel? That’s what these students and other campus protesters are calling for. Some of their demands are not practical. I’ll admit that. But I view them as acting in good faith and it’s offensive to compare them to the Charlottesville neo-nazis. They try but they can’t control what every person who shows up at their events does or says. Like most protest movements, the bad actors should not be assumed to represent the entire movement: My concern for students on both sides of the issue is that the national attention and the labeling of these non-violent activists as “terrorists” by some critics could lead to vigilantism. These protests have been angry and unruly at times but so far mostly peaceful. Hopefully it stays that way.
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 23, 2024 12:21:19 GMT -5
The comparisons to the Charlottesville protestors/rioters is disgustingly inaccurate.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 23, 2024 12:38:17 GMT -5
A lot of it is criticism. Legit. And a lot of it is not. But it could be that Jews on campuses are lying and the antisemitic speech and intimidation is not happening. I guess. At least according to some. Never said it isn't happening. In fact I posted this earlier on this thread and you liked it while others criticized me for saying something that really should have been a given. Both sides are exaggerating the other side's POV to shout them down. No one is really exchanging valid points. It's a mess which is why I have tried to stay out of it for the most part. The truth and reality lies somewhere in the middle, as it usually does. Here's the thing... We're talking about a university campus in a predominately Jewish neighborhood. At what point do students' legitimate rights to protest and speak their minds interfere with other students' right to receive an education free of intimidation and perceived threats to their safety? This is not an easy issue but we've repeatedly seen reports of anti-semitism and statements from Jewish students saying that they feel threatened, harassed, and/or unsafe on campus. Could some of them be exaggerating? Sure. But we've been raising these issues since October. There's something to these claims I get it. Romantics want to compare this to the anti-Apartheid divesture campaign that swept college campuses in the 80s but I don't recall the same level of vitriol, bigotry, and anti-semitism being directed at other students.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 12:50:22 GMT -5
We're talking about a university campus in a predominately Jewish neighborhood.
At what point do students' legitimate rights to protest and speak their minds interfere with other students' right to receive an education free of intimidation and perceived threats to their safety? The line is drawn at violence or threats of violence. Assault is illegal. Hate crimes are illegal. Because of the First Amendment, no American has the expectation that they won't hear or see offensive stuff when they're in public spaces. That's common sense (or used to be). Anyone who lives in NYC (I was born there) understands that. I see and hear obscene or offensive stuff all the time in public in the city. The Black Israelites who yell at people in Time Square are offensive as he11 but they have the Right to say outlandish things in public spaces... I get it. Romantics want to compare this to the anti-Apartheid divesture campaign that swept college campuses in the 80s but I don't recall the same level of vitriol, bigotry, and anti-semitism being directed at other students. The definition of antisemitism for some people includes legit criticism of the modern state of Israel. In fact, that's part of the UK's legal definition. Some find it offensive to say Israel is an "Apartheid State". Unfortunately, that's not how most Americans define antisemitism. It's just as fair for Americans to criticize Israel as it is to criticize Russia. Pro-Israel people have the Right to counterprotest and no one is stopping them from counterprotesting. I saw Michael Rappaport's speech at a counterprotest near Columbia earlier today. American Jews and conservative Christians have an emotional connection to Israel which didn't exist with many Americans and South Africa. So that's why Israel is more of a sensitive and polarizing topic. Both sides seem to be talking past each other. The solution is more free speech not less.
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 23, 2024 12:51:57 GMT -5
Never said it isn't happening. In fact I posted this earlier on this thread and you liked it while others criticized me for saying something that really should have been a given. Both sides are exaggerating the other side's POV to shout them down. No one is really exchanging valid points. It's a mess which is why I have tried to stay out of it for the most part. The truth and reality lies somewhere in the middle, as it usually does. Here's the thing... We're talking about a university campus in a predominately Jewish neighborhood. At what point do students' legitimate rights to protest and speak their minds interfere with other students' right to receive an education free of intimidation and perceived threats to their safety? This is not an easy issue but we've repeatedly seen reports of anti-semitism and statements from Jewish students saying that they feel threatened, harassed, and/or unsafe on campus. Could some of them be exaggerating? Sure. But we've been raising these issues since October. There's something to these claims I get it. Romantics want to compare this to the anti-Apartheid divesture campaign that swept college campuses in the 80s but I don't recall the same level of vitriol, bigotry, and anti-semitism being directed at other students. Can you point me to an incident specifically where someone has been hurt or threatened? So far it seems like people are claiming this or that is happening without any concrete evidence.
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summer23
Full Member
"Sometimes party loyalty asks too much." JFK
Posts: 1,907
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Post by summer23 on Apr 23, 2024 12:58:52 GMT -5
Never said it isn't happening. In fact I posted this earlier on this thread and you liked it while others criticized me for saying something that really should have been a given. Both sides are exaggerating the other side's POV to shout them down. No one is really exchanging valid points. It's a mess which is why I have tried to stay out of it for the most part. The truth and reality lies somewhere in the middle, as it usually does. Here's the thing... We're talking about a university campus in a predominately Jewish neighborhood. At what point do students' legitimate rights to protest and speak their minds interfere with other students' right to receive an education free of intimidation and perceived threats to their safety? This is not an easy issue but we've repeatedly seen reports of anti-semitism and statements from Jewish students saying that they feel threatened, harassed, and/or unsafe on campus. Could some of them be exaggerating? Sure. But we've been raising these issues since October. There's something to these claims I get it. Romantics want to compare this to the anti-Apartheid divesture campaign that swept college campuses in the 80s but I don't recall the same level of vitriol, bigotry, and anti-semitism being directed at other students. You live in NYC now, correct? Not "used" to. If I am wrong, let me know.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 23, 2024 14:38:13 GMT -5
We're talking about a university campus in a predominately Jewish neighborhood.
At what point do students' legitimate rights to protest and speak their minds interfere with other students' right to receive an education free of intimidation and perceived threats to their safety? The line is drawn at violence or threats of violence. Assault is illegal. Hate crimes are illegal. Because of the First Amendment, no American has the expectation that they won't hear or see offensive stuff when they're in public spaces. That's common sense (or used to be). Anyone who lives in NYC (I was born there) understands that. I see and hear obscene or offensive stuff all the time in public in the city. The Black Israelites who yell at people in Time Square are offensive as he11 but they have the Right to say outlandish things in public spaces... I get it. Romantics want to compare this to the anti-Apartheid divesture campaign that swept college campuses in the 80s but I don't recall the same level of vitriol, bigotry, and anti-semitism being directed at other students. The definition of antisemitism for some people includes legit criticism of the modern state of Israel. In fact, that's part of the UK's legal definition. Some find it offensive to say Israel is an "Apartheid State". Unfortunately, that's not how most Americans define antisemitism. It's just as fair for Americans to criticize Israel as it is to criticize Russia. Pro-Israel people have the Right to counterprotest and no one is stopping them from counterprotesting. I saw Michael Rappaport's speech at a counterprotest near Columbia earlier today. American Jews and conservative Christians have an emotional connection to Israel which didn't exist with many Americans and South Africa. So that's why Israel is more of a sensitive and polarizing topic. Both sides seem to be talking past each other. The solution is more free speech not less. Is Columbia University a public space? I don’t think it is. Again, does your right to free speech include a right to harass another student? Does your right to free speech override a student’s right to use university facilities or attend class and get the education they paid for?
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Post by pickle20 on Apr 23, 2024 14:38:53 GMT -5
I walked through Columbia University once. There were no gates or checkpoints.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 23, 2024 14:39:28 GMT -5
Here's the thing... We're talking about a university campus in a predominately Jewish neighborhood. At what point do students' legitimate rights to protest and speak their minds interfere with other students' right to receive an education free of intimidation and perceived threats to their safety? This is not an easy issue but we've repeatedly seen reports of anti-semitism and statements from Jewish students saying that they feel threatened, harassed, and/or unsafe on campus. Could some of them be exaggerating? Sure. But we've been raising these issues since October. There's something to these claims I get it. Romantics want to compare this to the anti-Apartheid divesture campaign that swept college campuses in the 80s but I don't recall the same level of vitriol, bigotry, and anti-semitism being directed at other students. You live in NYC now, correct? Not "used" to. If I am wrong, let me know. Yeap, I’m actually about 8 blocks from Columbia right now
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 23, 2024 14:40:53 GMT -5
I walked through Columbia University once. There were no gates or checkpoints. That was then, this is now You can usually walk across campus if there are checkpoints and gates and I believe you need an ID to access campus right now
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