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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 15:03:31 GMT -5
The line is drawn at violence or threats of violence. Assault is illegal. Hate crimes are illegal. Because of the First Amendment, no American has the expectation that they won't hear or see offensive stuff when they're in public spaces. That's common sense (or used to be). Anyone who lives in NYC (I was born there) understands that. I see and hear obscene or offensive stuff all the time in public in the city. The Black Israelites who yell at people in Time Square are offensive as he11 but they have the Right to say outlandish things in public spaces... The definition of antisemitism for some people includes legit criticism of the modern state of Israel. In fact, that's part of the UK's legal definition. Some find it offensive to say Israel is an "Apartheid State". Unfortunately, that's not how most Americans define antisemitism. It's just as fair for Americans to criticize Israel as it is to criticize Russia. Pro-Israel people have the Right to counterprotest and no one is stopping them from counterprotesting. I saw Michael Rappaport's speech at a counterprotest near Columbia earlier today. American Jews and conservative Christians have an emotional connection to Israel which didn't exist with many Americans and South Africa. So that's why Israel is more of a sensitive and polarizing topic. Both sides seem to be talking past each other. The solution is more free speech not less. Is Columbia University a public space? No but you mentioned the fact that Columbia is 'in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood' and I've noted how most of the incidents being discussed over the last few days have taken place near the campus not on the campus. No Columbia students or faculty have been identified as the perps in these incidents. The school can address incidents that happen on the campus but they have no power to do anything about offensive stuff said in public spaces off campus. I don’t think it is.
Again, does your right to free speech include a right to harass another student?If you can cite specific incidents where students who have harassed other students have been identified we can discuss those specific incidents. Does your right to free speech override a student’s right to use university facilities or attend class and get the education they paid for?No one is being prevented from taking their classes. The student protesters are studying in the encampments. Columbia will do virtual learning the rest of the year. (The person who posted the above Tweet must not have many Black friends ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) ) Never lose sight of the fact that these are other people's children on both sides of the issue. The cure for bad speech is more speech or more engagement.
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Post by upstream on Apr 23, 2024 15:12:41 GMT -5
Is Columbia University a public space? No but you mentioned the fact that Columbia is 'in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood' and I've noted how most of the incidents being discussed over the last few days have taken place near the campus not on the campus. No Columbia students or faculty have been identified as the perps in these incidents. The school can address incidents that happen on the campus but they have no power to do anything about offensive stuff said in public spaces off campus. I don’t think it is.
Again, does your right to free speech include a right to harass another student?If you can cite specific incidents where students who have harassed other students have been identified we can discuss those specific incidents. Does your right to free speech override a student’s right to use university facilities or attend class and get the education they paid for?No one is being prevented from taking their classes. The student protesters are studying in the encampments. Columbia will do virtual learning the rest of the year. (The person who posted the above Tweet must not have many Black friends ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) ) Never lose sight of the fact that these are other people's children on both sides of the issue. The cure for bad speech is more speech or more engagement. Bizarre?? Really?? They’re stepping… 😒 That guy needs to get out more often.
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Post by guido2 on Apr 23, 2024 15:45:37 GMT -5
Would be nice if people were interested in condemning hate speech here in this country. But I, and others, know why some will not. But here lies the problem. Is there a clear definition of hate speech within the context of the 1st Amendment? Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Note the part I underlined. At least to me, this, very much like the 2nd Amendments militia statement, has never been clearly articulated. Well, to be clear, both have been 'articulated' by whatever Supreme Court happens to be handed a case to be making a decision. (See Roe vs Wade etc) as to what the words mean..... at the moment. So, going back to the 1st, depending on which scholar you talk to, the idea of being able to say what you want....well varies. Some scholars will say that the first really only applies to language that is used in engaging the government, others will say that it applies to all speech, still others will split the baby and say that it really only applies to addressing the government, while saying whatever you want is subject to possible censure.... or a well it depends (see yellig fire in a theater). 🤷♂️
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summer23
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Post by summer23 on Apr 23, 2024 15:59:52 GMT -5
Hate speech is protected. That isn't my point. It can still be condemned when it is seen/read/heard.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 16:04:46 GMT -5
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 23, 2024 16:43:04 GMT -5
And the arbiter of moral rectitude has spoken. I wonder how many of these "morally right" folks will use the taxes paid by hard working Jewish people to pay off the college loans they asked for, so that they can disturb the safety and study of others. No comment on mass murder of civilians? Interesting. Israel is a country. Judaism is a religion. Most American Jews are Americans first. Associating all Jews with Israel is not Kosher. Opposing crimes against humanity has nothing to do with religion and it's surprising to see pro-life people defend Israel killing mostly women and children. Oh... about those 200 bodies at the hospital you're calling a "mass murder of civilians": www.cnn.com/2024/04/22/middleeast/khan-younis-nasser-hospital-mass-grave-intl/index.htmlThis "mass murder" was committed by Hamas' use of human shields at the hospital.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 23, 2024 16:48:39 GMT -5
I walked through Columbia University once. There were no gates or checkpoints. I was just there. You can't get onto the main campus without a Columbia ID and there are gates.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 23, 2024 16:50:20 GMT -5
If this is all just normal, peaceful protesting, why has Columbia decided to basically shut down campus and move all classes on line?
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Post by WKDWZD on Apr 23, 2024 17:07:51 GMT -5
No comment on mass murder of civilians? Interesting. Israel is a country. Judaism is a religion. Most American Jews are Americans first. Associating all Jews with Israel is not Kosher. Opposing crimes against humanity has nothing to do with religion and it's surprising to see pro-life people defend Israel killing mostly women and children. Oh... about those 200 bodies at the hospital you're calling a "mass murder of civilians": www.cnn.com/2024/04/22/middleeast/khan-younis-nasser-hospital-mass-grave-intl/index.htmlThis "mass murder" was committed by Hamas' use of human shields at the hospital. The mass murder was commited by the IDF.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 23, 2024 17:11:30 GMT -5
No one is being prevented from taking their classes. The student protesters are studying in the encampments. Columbia will do virtual learning the rest of the year. Never lose sight of the fact that these are other people's children on both sides of the issue. The cure for bad speech is more speech or more engagement. 1. So, yes. Students are being denied the ability to attend lectures and break out sessions in person which is what they paid for. 2. This is a university. It is the role of a university and the responsibility of its administers to foster an environment for learning which certainly means promoting the free exchange of ideas but it also means ensuring a safe learning environment. Again, there are people saying that they feel unsafe. 3. More speech and more engagement... sure. But when you get accepted to Columbia you agree to abide by the universities code of conduct.
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summer23
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Post by summer23 on Apr 23, 2024 17:29:07 GMT -5
No one is being prevented from taking their classes. The student protesters are studying in the encampments. Columbia will do virtual learning the rest of the year. Never lose sight of the fact that these are other people's children on both sides of the issue. The cure for bad speech is more speech or more engagement. 1. So, yes. Students are being denied the ability to attend lectures and break out sessions in person which is what they paid for. 2. This is a university. It is the role of a university and the responsibility of its administers to foster an environment for learning which certainly means promoting the free exchange of ideas but it also means ensuring a safe learning environment. Again, there are people saying that they feel unsafe. 3. More speech and more engagement... sure. But when you get accepted to Columbia you agree to abide by the universities code of conduct. Don't confuse facts with hopeful propaganda spreading.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 17:35:35 GMT -5
If this is all just normal, peaceful protesting, why has Columbia decided to basically shut down campus and move all classes on line? I assume because they’re trying to protect all the students, including the protesters, from people like Sen. Tom Cotton who has called for violence against pro-Palestine protesters. The national attention that these NON-VIOLENT protests are getting hasn’t stopped some from acting as if these students are violent or stopped people from calling these children “terrorists”.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 17:38:59 GMT -5
No one is being prevented from taking their classes. The student protesters are studying in the encampments. Columbia will do virtual learning the rest of the year. Never lose sight of the fact that these are other people's children on both sides of the issue. The cure for bad speech is more speech or more engagement. 1. So, yes. Students are being denied the ability to attend lectures and break out sessions in person which is what they paid for. 2. This is a university. It is the role of a university and the responsibility of its administers to foster an environment for learning which certainly means promoting the free exchange of ideas but it also means ensuring a safe learning environment. Again, there are people saying that they feel unsafe. 3. More speech and more engagement... sure. But when you get accepted to Columbia you agree to abide by the universities code of conduct. I can pretty much guess what you would’ve said about the abolitionist movement pre-Civil War or the Civil Rights movement pre-1964. Are you familiar with the phrase: “Good Trouble”? These protests at Columbia are way more tame than the anti-Vietnam war protests at Columbia in the 1960s.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 23, 2024 17:50:21 GMT -5
If this is all just normal, peaceful protesting, why has Columbia decided to basically shut down campus and move all classes on line? I assume because they’re trying to protect all the students, including the protesters, from people like Sen. Tom Cotton who has called for violence against pro-Palestine protesters. The national attention that these NON-VIOLENT protests are getting hasn’t stopped some from acting as if these students are violent or stopped people from calling these children “terrorists”. These are NOT children. College students are almost all over the age of 18, and those who are chanting "we are Hamas" are identifying as terrorists. If you identify yourself as a terrorist, it's fully correct to call you a terrorist.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 23, 2024 17:51:50 GMT -5
1. So, yes. Students are being denied the ability to attend lectures and break out sessions in person which is what they paid for. 2. This is a university. It is the role of a university and the responsibility of its administers to foster an environment for learning which certainly means promoting the free exchange of ideas but it also means ensuring a safe learning environment. Again, there are people saying that they feel unsafe. 3. More speech and more engagement... sure. But when you get accepted to Columbia you agree to abide by the universities code of conduct. I can pretty much guess what you would’ve said about the abolitionist movement pre-Civil War or the Civil Rights movement pre-1964. Are you familiar with the phrase: “Good Trouble”? These protests at Columbia are way more tame than the anti-Vietnam war protests at Columbia in the 1960s. There is no world where "Death to America!" is "good trouble."
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 23, 2024 18:00:03 GMT -5
1. So, yes. Students are being denied the ability to attend lectures and break out sessions in person which is what they paid for. 2. This is a university. It is the role of a university and the responsibility of its administers to foster an environment for learning which certainly means promoting the free exchange of ideas but it also means ensuring a safe learning environment. Again, there are people saying that they feel unsafe. 3. More speech and more engagement... sure. But when you get accepted to Columbia you agree to abide by the universities code of conduct. I can pretty much guess what you would’ve said about the abolitionist movement pre-Civil War or the Civil Rights movement pre-1964. Are you familiar with the phrase: “Good Trouble”? You obviously have no idea who you are talking to. Take your condescending and sanctimonious bs and shove it
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Post by zenwalk on Apr 23, 2024 18:03:38 GMT -5
1. So, yes. Students are being denied the ability to attend lectures and break out sessions in person which is what they paid for. 2. This is a university. It is the role of a university and the responsibility of its administers to foster an environment for learning which certainly means promoting the free exchange of ideas but it also means ensuring a safe learning environment. Again, there are people saying that they feel unsafe. 3. More speech and more engagement... sure. But when you get accepted to Columbia you agree to abide by the universities code of conduct. I can pretty much guess what you would’ve said about the abolitionist movement pre-Civil War or the Civil Rights movement pre-1964. Are you familiar with the phrase: “Good Trouble”? These protests at Columbia are way more tame than the anti-Vietnam war protests at Columbia in the 1960s. Students should protest. It's a logical extension of an education that seeks to teach students to reason and act in a conscientious manner. Getting arrested is part of that.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 18:16:54 GMT -5
I assume because they’re trying to protect all the students, including the protesters, from people like Sen. Tom Cotton who has called for violence against pro-Palestine protesters. The national attention that these NON-VIOLENT protests are getting hasn’t stopped some from acting as if these students are violent or stopped people from calling these children “terrorists”. These are NOT children. College students are almost all over the age of 18, and those who are chanting "we are Hamas" are identifying as terrorists. If you identify yourself as a terrorist, it's fully correct to call you a terrorist. Almost everyone under 21 is still a kid to me and I’m sure most of these kids still live with their parents. Show me proof that students on campus have chanted “we are Hamas” You’re an easy mark for propaganda.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 18:17:28 GMT -5
I can pretty much guess what you would’ve said about the abolitionist movement pre-Civil War or the Civil Rights movement pre-1964. Are you familiar with the phrase: “Good Trouble”? These protests at Columbia are way more tame than the anti-Vietnam war protests at Columbia in the 1960s. There is no world where "Death to America!" is "good trouble." Who said that? You have no idea
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 18:20:14 GMT -5
I can pretty much guess what you would’ve said about the abolitionist movement pre-Civil War or the Civil Rights movement pre-1964. Are you familiar with the phrase: “Good Trouble”? You obviously have no idea who you are talking to. Take your condescending and sanctimonious bs and shove it Think about how you sound. It’s difficult to believe you’ve ever protested. Protests are supposed to be disruptive. That’s the point. The Freedom Riders who went to the segregated South were called “communists” and “troublemakers”. People will say anything to discredit movements that they dislike.
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 23, 2024 18:30:48 GMT -5
Since Joy insists on perpetuating false narratives: I don't perpetuate false narratives and neither does the Jonathan Chait article I posted. Here's the language from the National Students for Justice in Palestine organizing kit put out in the immediate aftermath of the Hamas pogrom of October 7th dw-wp-production.imgix.net/2023/10/DAY-OF-RESISTANCE-TOOLKIT.pdfAnd you have the nerve to compare these people to John Lewis and SNCC. Don't make me laugh
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Post by JoyinMudville on Apr 23, 2024 18:31:59 GMT -5
You obviously have no idea who you are talking to. Take your condescending and sanctimonious bs and shove it Think about how you sound. It’s difficult to believe you’ve ever protested. Protests are supposed to be disruptive. That’s the point. The Freedom Riders who went to the segregated South were called “communists” and “troublemakers”. People will say anything to discredit movements that they dislike. You're confusion about the tactics of the early civil rights movement is not my problem.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 23, 2024 18:35:13 GMT -5
These are NOT children. College students are almost all over the age of 18, and those who are chanting "we are Hamas" are identifying as terrorists. If you identify yourself as a terrorist, it's fully correct to call you a terrorist. Almost everyone under 21 is still a kid to me and I’m sure most of these kids still live with their parents. Show me proof that students on campus have chanted “we are Hamas” You’re an easy mark for propaganda. This thread is 31 pages of mostly you spewing obvious propaganda. Including now that 18 year olds aren't legally adults. At least TRY to be serious. Oh and here's your "we're all Hamas" video. Those are some truly garbage people you're supporting SF.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 23, 2024 18:37:22 GMT -5
There is no world where "Death to America!" is "good trouble." Who said that? You have no idea Who said what? "Death to America!" is a common refrain among the pro-Hamas crowd. It was you who decided to bring up "good trouble" in that context.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 18:41:00 GMT -5
Almost everyone under 21 is still a kid to me and I’m sure most of these kids still live with their parents. Show me proof that students on campus have chanted “we are Hamas” You’re an easy mark for propaganda. This thread is 31 pages of mostly you spewing obvious propaganda. Including now that 18 year olds aren't legally adults. At least TRY to be serious. Oh and here's your "we're all Hamas" video. Those are some truly garbage people you're supporting SF. Thank you for proving my point. The people in the video are clearly not on the Columbia campus. We don't know if they are students. I asked you for proof that students are saying the things you're citing. You failed. You love to say things with authority from a point of ignorance...
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 18:50:41 GMT -5
Think about how you sound. It’s difficult to believe you’ve ever protested. Protests are supposed to be disruptive. That’s the point. The Freedom Riders who went to the segregated South were called “communists” and “troublemakers”. People will say anything to discredit movements that they dislike. You're confusion about the tactics of the early civil rights movement is not my problem. I'm not confused. You are (or attempting to rewrite history) if you think effective protests aren't supposed to be disruptive. Protest movements tend not to be popular initially. What scares the crap out of some people is the fact that this is turning into a national movement. The students at Columbia are doing a wonderful job of holding a peaceful and multifaith protest. I'm proud of the way they're carrying themselves.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 23, 2024 18:52:47 GMT -5
^Another person who dislikes the First Amendment. I'm all for free speech. I'm also for living with consequences of idiotic actions. At the very least these efftards need to be on watchlists. *shrugs* They're openly proclaiming themsevles to be Hamas now. THat should automatically lead to a stop to identify the individual, and yes, straight on the terrorist watch list. Fair enough most of these people are so stupid they shouldn't be taken seriously, but one should never discount what someone says they are.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 23, 2024 18:56:29 GMT -5
This thread is 31 pages of mostly you spewing obvious propaganda. Including now that 18 year olds aren't legally adults. At least TRY to be serious. Oh and here's your "we're all Hamas" video. Those are some truly garbage people you're supporting SF. Thank you for proving my point. The people in the video are clearly not on the Columbia campus. We don't know if they are students. I asked you for proof that students are saying the things you're citing. You failed. You love to say things with authority from a point of ignorance... Sure SF, if that's the lie you have to tell yourself to sleep at night, you go ahead. It's there on video. Just put this in with you delusional demands that I prove that Hamas uses human shields while ignoring all the proof that they use human shields.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 18:57:26 GMT -5
Thank you for proving my point. The people in the video are clearly not on the Columbia campus. We don't know if they are students. I asked you for proof that students are saying the things you're citing. You failed. You love to say things with authority from a point of ignorance... Sure SF, if that's the lie you have to tell yourself to sleep at night, you go ahead. It's there on video. Just put this in with you delusional demands that I prove that Hamas uses human shields while ignoring all the proof that they use human shields. Your video proved nothing. We're never going to agree on this topic. Just move on.
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Post by soulflower on Apr 23, 2024 18:57:52 GMT -5
Some will try to convince you that all these Jewish people support Hamas
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